OOTS #830 - The Discussion Thread

[Forikroder]

Y'know, whether Xykon gets to replace Redcloak as the divine half of the ritual is entirely dependent on whether that half can be transferred out of his mind, or even that he knows it's there. Redcloak could always use that as one last bargaining chip - "if you kill me, the divine half of the ritual is lost forever, and you know a ritual this complex can't be executed by someone who's been brainwashed into doing your bidding". Which would leave Xykon with two alternatives - find leverage on Redcloak to force him not to do any funny business while the ritual is underway, or find a way not to lose that precious knowledge in the event of Redcloak's death.

So as someone pointed out, Xykon really has no happy ending waiting for him.

im pretty sure redcloak wont threaten Xykon like that, he wants the ritual to happen if he has to die to do it to him his mantle (and passing it onto next person) is the absolute most important thing aside from casting the ritual

[Adama]

Mmmh, as for Xykon going to the oracle,

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I always thought he might have gone there to ask him about his phylactery's location. As his visions seems to come from Tiamat, chances are that he might have been able to see through the cloister's spell. And as Xykon left to him soon after the loss of its phylactery, probably after seeing that the goblins didn't find it in a few days, it always seemed a logical step, allowing to narrow down the search area.

Well, might be wrong about that. ^^

Actually, I think we have very strong evidence that the Oracle's visions CAN penetrate epic magic; after all, he took off ahead of Xykon getting to his tower. Xykon is, even outside of Azure City, still protected by his last invocation of the Cloister spell, therefore unscryable by normal means.

[Icedaemon]

I would describe Xykon as a "tool" (but not to his "face," mind! ) -- just not in the sense that Redcloak means...

Tool of the titans?

[Kuroimaken]

im pretty sure redcloak wont threaten Xykon like that, he wants the ritual to happen if he has to die to do it to him his mantle (and passing it onto next person) is the absolute most important thing aside from casting the ritual

Hence the "last" bit in "one last bargaining chip". Y'know, in case Xykon goes with the classic "give me one reason I shouldn't make you into a pair of fuzzy slippers".

[Doug Lampert]

What a week!
Getting rid of the resistance AND Tsukiko the same week?
It looks like Christmas lasts longer this year...

Finally, the goblins have their chance at getting their civilization... Would be great.

We've seen at least two prosperous goblinoid civilizations not suffering from any human attacks more dangerous than a visit by the circus.

Sadly, in both cases, eventually Red Cloak and Co. eventually showed up and that was the end of THAT sort of nonsense! Can't have anyone SUCCEEDING at the sacred mission without following the plan after all!

Why anyone thinks the hobgoblins are seriously better off NOW, under X's thumb and minus 10,000+ of their warriors than they were BEFORE Red and Co. showed up is a mystery to me. Because they now live in a city someone else built rather than their own city they had already built? Because they now have a few human slaves? Because they are now forced to spend months looking for a magical gewgaw when they could be getting the planting in or whatever they needed to do to actually live. Because their NEW city is threatened by a rift in reality that wasn't troubling anyone previously and from which their OLD city would still be safe?

Which is it? Why do the hobgoblins need Red cloak? What has he done for them? The BIGGEST single thing Red cloak has done for the inhabitants of his little paradise is to stop DELIBERATELY killing them off to build ramps up the walls.

Gee, he's a helper.

The GRAND TOTAL evidence we have for humans attacking goblinoids without good reason is
1) Red Cloak's word.
2) The Dark One's word.
3) The completely justified attack on Red Cloak's home village involving some unjustified additional attrocities.

The evidence against is actually pretty compelling. Right Eye PROVED the plan wasn't neccessary by having the home Red Cloak's claims was impossible. And Red Cloak KILLED HIM rather than give up the plan.

He really is a helper.

[The MunchKING]

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But Xykon doesn't know that, he think the ritual will be for his own benefit, not the Dark One. And he probably suffer the memory charm like anybody else, so don't know what the oracle is, just that he can answer any questions.

So, Xykon going to the oracle so he might get his phylactery back sooner than later always seemed a good possibility. And that the oracle happened to be out at that very time is probably no coincindence, as you pointed out ^^

Aren't Liches, like all undead, immune to mindaltering effects?

[Aka-chan]

This question has probably already been asked before, but...there's 29 pages to this thread.

For some reason this didn't strike me when I initially read the comic, but how did Redcloak take control of Tsukiko's undead minions without her realizing it? IIRC, rebuking undead requires the cleric to brandish his (un)holy symbol at them, which seems like it would be kind of obvious, especially to a fellow divine caster.

[pendejochy]

This question has probably already been asked before, but...there's 29 pages to this thread.

For some reason this didn't strike me when I initially read the comic, but how did Redcloak take control of Tsukiko's undead minions without her realizing it? IIRC, rebuking undead requires the cleric to brandish his (un)holy symbol at them, which seems like it would be kind of obvious, especially to a fellow divine caster.

Redcloak cast a spell a strip or two earlier when he entered the room. I don't play DnD, so I'm not sure of the exact spell, but all it seemed to require was making his hand glow in their general vicinity. It didn't have any immediate effect, so I guess Tsukiko disregarded it. Or maybe the glow was just a visual cue to let readers know Reddy was casting a spell in the first place.

[Bulldog Psion]

We've seen at least two prosperous goblinoid civilizations not suffering from any human attacks more dangerous than a visit by the circus.

Sadly, in both cases, eventually Red Cloak and Co. eventually showed up and that was the end of THAT sort of nonsense! Can't have anyone SUCCEEDING at the sacred mission without following the plan after all!

Why anyone thinks the hobgoblins are seriously better off NOW, under X's thumb and minus 10,000+ of their warriors than they were BEFORE Red and Co. showed up is a mystery to me. Because they now live in a city someone else built rather than their own city they had already built? Because they now have a few human slaves? Because they are now forced to spend months looking for a magical gewgaw when they could be getting the planting in or whatever they needed to do to actually live. Because their NEW city is threatened by a rift in reality that wasn't troubling anyone previously and from which their OLD city would still be safe?

Which is it? Why do the hobgoblins need Red cloak? What has he done for them? The BIGGEST single thing Red cloak has done for the inhabitants of his little paradise is to stop DELIBERATELY killing them off to build ramps up the walls.

Gee, he's a helper.

The GRAND TOTAL evidence we have for humans attacking goblinoids without good reason is
1) Red Cloak's word.
2) The Dark One's word.
3) The completely justified attack on Red Cloak's home village involving some unjustified additional attrocities.

The evidence against is actually pretty compelling. Right Eye PROVED the plan wasn't neccessary by having the home Red Cloak's claims was impossible. And Red Cloak KILLED HIM rather than give up the plan.

He really is a helper.

You know, after reading what you wrote here, I feel the urge to applaud. Well expressed, good sir, well expressed indeed!

[TheBossBoy]

That is the most disturbing death I have ever seen in OOTS since the superball. At least it answers a few questions...

[theNater]

This question has probably already been asked before, but...there's 29 pages to this thread.

For some reason this didn't strike me when I initially read the comic, but how did Redcloak take control of Tsukiko's undead minions without her realizing it? IIRC, rebuking undead requires the cleric to brandish his (un)holy symbol at them, which seems like it would be kind of obvious, especially to a fellow divine caster.

The rules require the cleric to "present" his holy symbol, and do not precisely specify that term. It can be argued that wearing the holy symbol openly(as Redcloak does) counts.

[Mr. Pants]

Redcloak saved our heroes the trouble of dealing with Tsukiko themselves...how ironic.

[teratorn]

I see what you did here... one more day and this thread would be undead.

[Mr. Pants]

I'm sorry! The Thread Necromancy completely slipped my mind...