OOTS #830 - The Discussion Thread

[evileeyore]

YYYEEEEESSSSSS!


And that is how Evil rolls baby!

[Tordek]

So, now two questions remain, given we now know Xykon is on the way:

1. How will Redcloak explain Tsukiko's disappearence to Xykon? Xykon will definitely ask, since he left her that task, so Redcloak may have to bluff about that.

Why does he have to explain anything?

Xykon: Where's Tsukiko?
Redcloak: Last time I saw her she was with her wights acting strangely, and that was hours ago. I have no idea where she's gotten to.
Xykon: Well, keep one eye peeled for her. Got my phylactery?

[The Dark Fiddler]

Ahahahahahahaha!

Now that I have that out of my system... was there a particular reason he wanted the wights to eat themselves "in the order in which (they) were created"?

Wights have control over the spawns they create, so Redcloak probably just controlled the eldest. The one he controlled, therefore, has to be the last one to die, or else the chain of control is broken.

On the subject of what ability Red used, he explicitly says Command Undead. If you're willing to stretch that to mean he used Rebuke Undead instead, you should also be willing to stretch it to say he used Control Undead instead.

[carldot34]

OH. WOW.

When is this story arc going to appear in print????

[theNater]

I noticed that as well. I assumed it was Rebuke Undead when I read it, but it's reasonable for people to take it at face value given the text.

When a rebuke is used for control, it is called commanding the undead. Add to that the fact that the spell is an arcane spell and would not necessarily allow Redcloak to order them to destroy themselves, I think it's safe to say he was using the cleric ability.

[factotum]

Rebuke effectively becomes Command against low hit dice undead anyway, so maybe that's what he meant. It certainly makes more sense for the reader for him to word it the way he did, because you'd have to be familiar with D&D rules to know that Rebuke works that way.

[Shatteredtower]

I'm reminded of Granny Weatherwax's observation that all sin starts with treating people as things. That's how Tsukiko would assess what Redcloak just did to her and her creations.

Her death may be appropriate to her actions, but her last words are very sad. Naive, sure, even foolish, but it's still heart-breaking to see her betrayed by those she thought she loved, those she believed could love her back if only she took good care of them. Then it turns out that they'll kill her and themselves without a second thought or shred of remorse. Redcloak didn't pull a single punch here.

What really gets me is that the entire time we're treated to her final words, the panels stay fixed on Redcloak's reaction. All the gloating and anger are passed, and that's not his usual expression of annoyance. It's more like the expression he had on his face when he tried to reassure his reflection it will all be worth it. He doubtless still believes these actions necessary (and for what he wants, it's difficult to find an alternative now), but he's not reacting well to what she's saying. Not surprising, seeing as he just ordered someone killed by those she saw as family. That's got to be way too familiar to him.

I think he relates way too well to the wights here: as betrayers with no choice (as he sees it), and as dangerous tools that will have to be destroyed once their work is done. Maybe he's realizing that he's done none of this for love of his family or people? Probably not.

That was a powerful scene. I'm a bit worried about where things go next. Redcloak has a history of underestimating Xykon in critical moments. It's time to see how well he's learned from that.

[Kojiro]

Ouch. That's pretty unpleasant. Also doesn't solve all of Redcloak's problems; as mentioned (even by him), her death is going to mess things up: Depending on whether or not he has his own plans for the phylactery (if he gives it back then that would probably tide Xykon over more than Tsukiko's death), and coming back to find her dead and to learn that the phylactery thing was a false alarm will probably absolutely infuriate Xykon, even if Redcloak somehow manages to put as much blame as possible on Tsukiko. He's taking the lesser of the two dangerous paths, to be sure, but it's still dangerous, and there's a good chance of really, really bad things coming of this. His chances, and by extension the chances for all the goblins in Azure City, of coming out of this completely unscathed are next to nothing.

[Werbaer]

1. How will Redcloak explain Tsukiko's disappearence to Xykon? Xykon will definitely ask, since he left her that task, so Redcloak may have to bluff about that.

My guess:

Spoiler

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"The resistance snatched the Phylactery. Tsukiko went after them, and then the mountain collapsed."

[HandofShadows]

Brutal. But did anyone really expect anything different?

[eilandesq]

In a world where speaking with the dead might well be doable even with a missing corpse--particularly for an epic-level lich sorcerer with a necromantic theme--Redcloak's failure to heed #7 on the Evil Overlord List may well come back to haunt him:

When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me, will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, "No." and shoot him. No, on second thought I'll shoot him then say "No."

[kalkyrie]

I'm tempted to start a thread arguing that Redcloak is Chaotic Good.

[eras10]

Chilling and gruesome. Good villain stuff. And used on an unlikable character, which helps keep the complaints down.

Given the number of major characters the Oracle has predicted will be killed off, I presume I will have reason to be impressed with Rich's guts again before the story wraps up. Nothing hurts a story like refusing to let bad things happen to the heroes.

Yeah, the was a great Bluff check Redcloak made, including on himself, about 'controlling' Xykon though.

It does look like Command Undead is being superceded / house-rule-empowered, etc, but it doesn't really matter. The fact that he could use it to kill Tsuikko is key. The fact that the undead wouldn't have killed themselves after isn't important - he would have had no trouble whatsoever wiping them out himself. This way it makes a chilling punctuation about the mindlessness of undead.

[saeval]

I just finished reading "Start of Darkness" before getting to this comic. absolutely fantastically done.

[Morty]

That was a powerful scene. I'm a bit worried about where things go next. Redcloak has a history of underestimating Xykon in critical moments. It's time to see how well he's learned from that.

His claim that he's subtly controlling Xykon suggests to me that he hasn't learned very well. But then, maybe he just didn't want to admit the real nature of the relationship between him and Xykon.

[BenjCano]

In the RAW, all spells that grant direct control over undead are from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Rich may take artistic license in the effects of spells, but he's never done anything that drastically different from the mechanics before.

And this comic made me comment on the forums for the first time in a good long while to say this: brilliant. Horrifying, but brilliant. Redcloak's look of stoic indifference as Tsukiko died sold it. He looks like a man waiting for a bus.

[Sierim]

As others have already stated, the Command Undead ability is distinct from the Command Undead spell.

[JoseB]

Impressive. REALLY impressive.

Given that Xykon is about to show up, I truly hope that, if Redcloak is thinking of performing a phylactery switcheroo, he has already made a duplicate. Otherwise a very uncomfortable situation will develop.

[wowy319]

Man, that Redcloak really is just a good guy at heart. Nothing but a tortured soul whose every action is justified by his tragic past.

[Zombimode]

I noticed that as well. I assumed it was Rebuke Undead when I read it, but it's reasonable for people to take it at face value given the text.

No, not really. Command Undead does not appear on the cleric spell list.

[wowy319]

No, not really. Command Undead does not appear on the cleric spell list.

High-level clerics can use rebuke undead (a class feature) to command undead. So it's no surprise it's not in their spell list.

[wowy319]

I'm tempted to start a thread arguing that Redcloak is Chaotic Good.

Please, for the love of all that is sane and just in the world, save us the ulcers and don't. There are people out there who are thick enough to believe that.

[bladescape]

Wow. That was scary, and awesome at the same time.

I think this punctuates an interesting point. That no matter how powerful Xykon is compared to RedCloak, and put simply, he is more powerful, RedCloak is far tactically superior.

In that instance, he had the cards to counter anything Tsukiko had. It almost seemed that he'd been ready for her betrayal.

Brilliant stuff.

[RMS Oceanic]

No, not really. Command Undead does not appear on the cleric spell list.

Just as Turn Undead has a variant that allows the undead to be outright destroyed, Rebuke Undead has a variant that allows them to be commanded. It is this ability that Redcloak made reference to, not the spell.

[Captainocaptain]

Redcloak could have been using the Command Undead feat, which allows clerics better control over undead by expending Rebukes. I would most likely say artistic license though.
And may I just say, this is one of the reasons Redcloak is my favorite character. Everyone loves a hero, but there is nothing quite like a great villain.

[The Dark Fiddler]

As others have already stated, the Command Undead ability is distinct from the Command Undead spell.

No, not really. Command Undead does not appear on the cleric spell list.

Redcloak researched a divine version of the spell, and while he was at it, he bumped it up a few levels and got rid of the pesky "controlled undead won't be suicidal" clause. There, problem solved.

In the RAW, all spells that grant direct control over undead are from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Rich may take artistic license in the effects of spells, but he's never done anything that drastically different from the mechanics before.

I think you're overestimating how large of a change this would be.

[Redshiftblue]

Fantastic work. Excellent dialogue matched with progression of the story. Redcloak's expressionless face while it all happens is perfect, as is Tsukiko's pleading. He's right about undead being things.

Looking forward to see what happens to the phylactery and everyone involved.

[LordofNaught]

Well now we all know Tsukiko's real alignment. Stupid Evil.

[luc258]

About the whole who is controlling who discussion:
Xykon has been pursuing the gate ritual for 30 years which will not give him anything at all no matter the outcome and risks him getting permanently destroyed like it almost happened when he faced the ghost martyrs.
I think there is quite a good case to support Redcloaks boast about him controlling Xykon to some degree.

On the other hand you got the whole incident in SOD

Spoiler

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with Redcloak's brother

which would clearly show Xykon in charge.

[Quild]

Three whole pages at once, wow. Haven't seen that since a long time! Maybe since strip #672.

Epic strip btw. Since RC lost his eye, I thought he really was going down, but he totally seems to be controlling the situation. He's at least thinking so.

But I wonder...
- How does Tsukiko know that the phylactery has been located? Has she lied to Jirix in order to make Xykon come?
- If Xykon already know that the phylactery is found... What will RC do?
- Why would RC hide the phylactery from Xykon?

I should re-read SoD, but I also wonder why this ritual doesn't allow Xykon to use the snarl for his own purpose. Gates can't be moved in this plane?