Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[Crusher]

Well, I could see Xykon playing around and casting Mass Hold Person thus "accidentally" holding everyone in the room (including O'chul as well as various goblins and hobgoblins), possibly causing various folks to fall into the acid tank and whatnot.

[Yendor]

Greater Teleport and Mass Hold Person* at 7th, Ghostform in 8th, Soul Bind* coming in at 9th, and Cloister, Epic Mage Armor, and some sort of Epic Dispelling finishing in Epic.

[...]

*Both these spells are technically non-damaging, but still pretty devastating. I listed them because they fall under the "crap probably not cast on O-Chul" category, which I think is more appropriate/relevant here.

Mass Hold Person was indeed cast on O-Chul.

[Peelee]

Well, I could see Xykon playing around and casting Mass Hold Person thus "accidentally" holding everyone in the room (including O'chul as well as various goblins and hobgoblins), possibly causing various folks to fall into the acid tank and whatnot.

Mass Hold Person was indeed cast on O-Chul.

Eek. Fixed. Man, that's right in the middle of my absolute favorite series of strips. Shame on me for not remembering.

[Kish]

But if he had an extra spell per level,

In addition to what Peelee said, there is no question of an extra spell per level (huh?). What there is, is that he could have extra spells at any level; the Extra Spell feat gets him one, the Spell Knowledge epic feat gets him two.

You can arbitrarily decide that he's filled...well, maybe first level with all-damage spells? As Peelee points out, every spell level we can see on O-Chul's list has at least one non-damage spell, but first and second levels are mostly covered up by the word balloons, and from those two levels I only remember Xykon casting Magic Missile. But as far as deciding that, e.g., he can be asserted as not having four seventh level known spells, I thought this thread was supposed to be a little more exacting than that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In addition to what Peelee said, there is no question of an extra spell per level (huh?). What there is, is that he could have extra spells at any level; the Extra Spell feat gets him one, the Spell Knowledge epic feat gets him two.

And now we know why I was wrong on my analysis: I had understood that the feat gave him an extra spell at every level, not at any level.

Please go ahead and ignore me. Obviously a single extra spell here and there could easily be missed.

GW

[SpacemanSpif]

Xykon's known spells, taken from the OP, arranged by level in the sorcerer/wizard list, including empty slots where he could have a spell known but none is listed:

Cantrips - Ray of Frost, Unknown x8
1st - Animate Dead Animal, Magic Missile, Unknown x3
2nd - Invisibility, Shatter, Unknown x3
3rd - Lightning Bolt, Unknown x3
4th - Animate Dead, Greater Invisibility, Resilient Sphere, Stoneskin
5th - Cloudkill, Overland Flight, Symbol of Pain, Teleport
6th - Contingency, Unknown x2
7th - Finger of Death, Greater Teleport, Mass Hold Person
8th - Ghostform, Symbol of Insanity, Unknown
9th - Energy Drain, Meteor Swarm, Soul Bind
Epic - Cloister, Epic Mage Armor, Superb Dispelling
Unknown Level - Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage, unspecified fire spell, unspecified mind-affecting spell, unspecified spell that enables travel to the Astral Plane

Unless Xykon's taken the epic feat Spell Knowledge, which would give him two new spells known of any level, the spell he used on MitD should be level 8 or lower. Depending on where those spells of unknown level fall, it might be as low as level 3, though that's highly doubtful.

I've been looking through the d20 SRD, and the only sorcerer spells I can find that would allow travel to the astral plane are Plane Shift (level 7), Astral Projection (level 9) and Gate (level 9). Please correct me if I'm wrong, or if there's a another spell from a book we've already seen used, that wouldn't necessarily be in the SRD.

If those are the three spells he could have used, though, that might indicate that he's taken a feat for at least one extra spell at one of those levels.

One problem with this theory, though, is that we've never seen him actually cast a spell to get to the Astral Plane; all we know is that he built a fortress there that Red Cloak appeared to not know about previously, and he asked Red Cloak to use Gate to get him there once. For all we know, he could have a magic item that he normally uses to travel to the Astral Plane, or (less likely, in my estimation) he's previously asked Red Cloak (or possibly some other caster, though we've seen no indication Tsukiko was high enough) to send him there without telling him why.

Nothing definitive enough to list in the OP, but an interesting topic for discussion.

[Kish]

While Xykon might rely on an item (...though it strikes me as kind of unlikely that he'd take the risk of being locked away from his phylactery, or regenerating at his phylactery and being trapped there), I very much doubt he'd let himself rely on another spellcaster for access to the astral plane.

I doubt he'd be willing to be dependent on anything outside his own spellcasting for something as important as being able to get in and out of his phylactery's hiding place, honestly. Remember what he said to Dorukan about being a sorcerer meaning his magic is in his bones, not cribbed off of "Magic for Dummies"?

[ti'esar]

In particular, given that he no longer trusts Redcloak with his phylactery (albeit for the wrong reasons... probably), I see it as extremely unlikely that Xykon would rely on him as the only possible means of access to the Astral Plane.

[zimmerwald1915]

It's also possible that he found a preexisting planar rift, whether natural or left over from some other (since deceased or departed) mage's longago experiments, leading to the Astral Plane on his latest trek.

[SpacemanSpif]

We should also note that, as always, Rich could homebrew an 8th level or 6th level spell that allows travel to and from the Astral Plane.

[EmperorSarda]

Or several scrolls. That is possible.

[Kurald Galain]

Who says Xykon wants to go back to the astral plane, like, ever? Sure, he hid his phylactery there, but otherwise the place is fairly boring. Xykon doesn't like boring.

[Kish]

If he's destroyed again, he'll be in the Astral Plane, without any items he may have.

Either his spells will get him out of it, or he'll experience exactly how boring he finds it for a long, long time.

[Silver Swift]

If he's destroyed again, he'll be in the Astral Plane, without any items he may have.

Either his spells will get him out of it, or he'll experience exactly how boring he finds it for a long, long time.

Not if he simply hid a scroll next to his phylactery.

[Shreav]

Who says Xykon wants to go back to the astral plane, like, ever? Sure, he thinks he hid his phylactery there, but otherwise the place is fairly boring. Xykon doesn't like boring.

There ... fixed it for you.

[Yendor]

If somebody tries to get to his phylactery, Xykon's going to want to deal with it. Sure, they probably won't get far, but why take chances?

[Keynub]

Belkar's Wisdom score is exactly 9.

According to strip 58, Owl's Wisdom grants Belkar enough wisdom to be able to cast CSW. If I'm not mistaken, this means he has a Wisdom score of at least 9 (since CSW is a 3rd level spell, he needs at least 13 after the +4 boost).

[Douglas]

Belkar's Wisdom score is exactly 9.

According to strip 58, Owl's Wisdom grants Belkar enough wisdom to be able to cast CSW. If I'm not mistaken, this means he has a Wisdom score of at least 9 (since CSW is a 3rd level spell, he needs at least 13 after the +4 boost).

There's been a LOT of debate about that, to the point where I think it was one of the arguments that led to the entire thread being locked for a while. Some people think it's the level of the spell on the scroll maker's spell list that matters, which combines with other things to pinpoint Belkar's wisdom at exactly 9. Some think it's the spell's level on the scroll user's list (and for Rangers it's a level 4 spell) that matters, which conflicts with other evidence. Among the latter group, opinions about what to do with the conflicting evidence are further divided.

Both groups are firmly entrenched in their opinions, thoroughly convinced the other is unambiguously objectively wrong, and the arguments about it got rather heated without convincing anyone on either side.

For what it's worth, I agree with you - I believe it's the spell's level on the scroll maker's list that matters, and I have argued quite vociferously on the subject in the past. But, for the sake of this thread's continued unlocked existence, I will not repeat those arguments and we should all just let the subject lie.

[Keynub]

I wasn't aware of this, sorry for bringing it up again.

[Kish]

There's been a LOT of debate about that, to the point where I think it was one of the arguments that led to the entire thread being locked for a while. Some people think it's the level of the spell on the scroll maker's spell list that matters, which combines with other things to pinpoint Belkar's wisdom at exactly 9. Some think it's the spell's level on the scroll user's list (and for Rangers it's a level 4 spell) that matters, which conflicts with other evidence.

And at least one of us thinks the idea of Belkar's Wisdom being one point below average is manifestly absurd from observing the way he acts in the comic and anything that leads to it should be thrown out.

[Frog Dragon]

Speaking of Belkar, can we really say that his charisma is 10 or less? Sure, V says so, though you could argue that V certainly doesn't have a positive view of Belkar's interpersonal skills, and he rarely bothers to use charisma at all because he's well... Belkar.

But in Greysky, Belkar is depicted as persuasive and attractive, and though there's nothing to give a proper charisma range from, I'd say it's enough to call V:s statement into question.

[SpacemanSpif]

Here's one that may not have been discussed in the past: In War and XPs, Belkar says that he threw the last Ring of Protection +1 they found in the trash. (For those of you who have it, comic 304a)

Is this sufficient to prove that each member of the order has two magic rings or another source of a deflection bonus?

[Kish]

Why the assumption that "Summon Employee Exit" is a spell Celia knows (presumably in addition to Dorukan creating an employee exit which could be summoned), rather than purely the result of Dorukan's creating an employee exit which his employees could summon? Celia doesn't say "Summon Employee Exit," she just says, "I'm summoning the employee exit" as it appears.

[Psyren]

But in Greysky, Belkar is depicted as persuasive and attractive, and though there's nothing to give a proper charisma range from, I'd say it's enough to call V:s statement into question.

To be fair, seducing Jenny isn't exactly a complex Diplomacy check

Most other people's attitudes towards him - from his own teammates to random NPCs like the AC guards and EoB gladiators - typically starts out Unfriendly and goes downhill from there.

[EatAtEmrakuls]

Charisma is force of personality.

Not how much people like you.

[Frog Dragon]

Charisma is force of personality.

It is also "persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness". Charisma is a notoriously vague stat. Besides, even if Belkar did have high charisma, people would still probably hate him because he antagonizes people on purpose most of the time. The EoB gladiators hated him because he stole bread and threatened people. High charisma doesn't help your interpersonal relationships when you've established yourself as the antagonist. Which Belkar does. Constantly.

[Sorator]

Here's one that may not have been discussed in the past: In War and XPs, Belkar says that he threw the last Ring of Protection +1 they found in the trash. (For those of you who have it, comic 304a)

Is this sufficient to prove that each member of the order has two magic rings or another source of a deflection bonus?

Not exactly (Belkar isn't incredibly likely to be holding onto items for other party members, now is he?), but it'd be a fairly safe assumption anyway. By the time your party is around level 15, you should have all your body slots filled with something.

Why the assumption that "Summon Employee Exit" is a spell Celia knows (presumably in addition to Dorukan creating an employee exit which could be summoned), rather than purely the result of Dorukan's creating an employee exit which his employees could summon? Celia doesn't say "Summon Employee Exit," she just says, "I'm summoning the employee exit" as it appears.

I agree that this shouldn't be listed as a spell for her. (It's also entirely possible she had a magic item given to her when she was hired to cast this spell for her, if it is indeed a spell.)

[St Fan]

I just noticed something. The FAQ says that are listed characters that are at lest Frequent according to the Number of Character Appearances thread, as well as family members of the main characters if there's enough info about them.

This cover about all the current characters described with the exception of Daigo (who's in the Frequent section now) and Ian Starshine (father of Haley). And I think we have enough minimal info on them both to add their entries.

Daigo could be added in the Sapphire Guard section for simplicity's sake (it could be renamed "The Azurites" if it's a problem).

[Kurald Galain]

I just noticed something. The FAQ says that are listed characters that are at lest Frequent according to the Number of Character Appearances thread,

No, it says "any frequently occuring character". That's not the same as the "frequent" section, because the Appearances thread used to not have a "frequent" section. Their cutoff point (of 31 appearances) is largely arbitrary and may change in the future, so we're not necessarily bound to use that; this thread doesn't include the demon roaches either.

Off the top of my head, all we know of Daigo is that he's sixth level, and all we know of Ian is that he's a first edition thief. What other information do we have that makes them viable for inclusion?

[zimmerwald1915]

all we know of Ian is that he's a first edition thief. What other information do we have that makes them viable for inclusion?

Strictly speaking, we know Ian was a first-edition thief. That speaks to his longevity (that is, he was around for the updates from first to second edition, from second to third, and from third to three point five), not to his current geeky state.

We also know he has Open Locks trained.