General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

[Gensh]

actually….the Yozis aren't really metaphysically different from when they were Primordials- the term Yozi is considered purely a political one and refers to Primordials that are imprisoned in Malfeas.

Their power level is the same, its just that the kind of powers they have aren't what they used to have, more of a change of focus rather than a lessening of what they once were.

its just that Primordials and Solars are just naturally on the same level of power, no strengthening or lessening, they just always been on the same level of power.

While you're technically correct, the Yozis (and Autochthon) really are lesser beings. While they are still full-fledged Primordials and therefore envision things beyond human capacity for learning and have experiences beyond human empathy, they have been forced to fit within human comprehension. Few agree with Malfeas' alleged right to rule, but it is something that humans can easily understand. They are just as mighty, but they are still lesser, much the same as if you or I could see an eighth color called octarine and then someone punched us in the head until we couldn't see it anymore and had difficulty remembering what it looked like. We could only say that it was like greenish-purple, and that it was beautiful but then the guy who punched us called us crazy and that there are only seven colors.

[Tavar]

I made a Sidereal Martial Art!
...Well, up to the Form anyway.
Comments?

Well, first off, I'd suggest posting it on the WW forums. There are quite a few more experienced mechanics people over there.

On to the heart of the matter:
First charm seems fine.
Revealing Untrue Truths: The idea seems fine, but something about the execution makes me wary of the charm: probably the fact that it uses quite a few dice (willpower being easy to boost) against a fairly difficult to raise stat, and that the only way to avoid it is to hemorrhage willpower. Not sure I like the combination, because while each on it's own seems okay, it's the together part that makes it in my mind an issue.


Disregarding Frivolous Distractions is fine, though it makes foes with area of effect anti-shaping tech much more dangerous.

Mental Blow method would probably be fine it you made bypass normal combat perfect, and rely on Social ones.

Inner Wealth Revealed is likewise good, and again means that area-of-effect anti-shaping is dangerous.

Unending Wellspring of Questions Form gets only one question from me: do the Aim actions give any benefit?

Oh, and regarding the favored weapons... I don't like the mechanic, as since you can only have a maximum of 3 specialties in any ability, it seems rather harsh.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yozis are Primordials.

Their charms are Primordial charms.

Why is this a difficult concept?

[Tavar]

Because some want the primordials to be super-special beings.

Some go so far to want them to basically be in the right, though some favor simply being misunderstood.

[Gensh]

Because some want the primordials to be super-special beings.

Some go so far to want them to basically be in the right, or at least be misunderstood.

I was just clarifying a point I feel is too often overlooked - yes, the Yozis are just as powerful as any Primordial floating around in the Wyld, but they are still fundamentally lesser, having been restricted into forms that the Exalted could understand and therefore imprison (minus Oramus). That's why I made the comparison of losing the ability to see a color; they're still roughly the same, just incomplete.

My insistence that the Primordials be given proper respect is purely philosophical; "if it has stats, it can be killed," with the understanding that such a thing can easily be planned out in the abstract, but it need not have stats to be killed. I feel assigning stats to any of the big names beyond Ligier's "easy mode" is a mistake, that all the mystique is being sapped away. Punching the endless, formless embodiment of dickery because you're that awesome is better than punching a 50 mile long giant snake because your dice pool is "this big."

Lastly, my point has never been that the now-Yozis were right (though from some perspectives, they were) so much that they were innocent, truly unable to comprehend how what they were doing could ever be considered wrong. If a Primordial acts out of malice, then it is because he can do nothing else; if a Solar acts out of malice, then it is because he is wicked. That the Exalted Host wanted to Neverborn their defeated enemies en masse and rejected SWLIHN's offer of assistance in postwar reconstruction speaks volumes - when given a hard choice, Creation's humans chose the easy way out that they knew would cause longterm damage. Given a choice of masters, I'd rather side with the insane, soul-crushing monsters from beyond Time than such pathetic so-called "heroes" who wouldn't even risk letting the OCD monster roam free.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeaa….I would judge the Yozis more on an individual basis. I wouldn't trust the Ebon Dragon with passing a note to the guy next to him for example, while Adorjan is someone I would shoot or lock up in a mental asylum forever.

Cecelyne is basically just a big lawyer, so obviously I'm not gonna accept her help in like ever.

Malfeas is a big bully who wants everyone to obey him, he'd want to be in charge as soon as he was let out, and basically be one big Viserys to the entire universe. No.

She Who Lives In Her Name wants to destroy all free will. No.

Isidiros destroys everything around him using only his presence. I think not.

Szoreny…..maybe.

Oramus…..we don't know anything about him, but judging by the pure strangeness around him, it might not be a good idea to release him because he might warp reality in bad ways. can't make a definitive judgement though. however then again he has probably gone completely insane from isolation so yea its probably a bad idea to release him at all.

Metagaos likes eating everything, no.

even other Yozis try to keep Sacheverell asleep, no.

Kimbery….she made the Lintha, I don't think so.

Qaf, Elloge and whatever others….don't really know much about them. can't make a good judgement.

general assessment: probably a bad idea to take the sides of any Yozi. Most of their natures aren't compatible with human life, no matter how good or sympathetic you think they are, you have to accept that their titanic power isn't really something that can coexist with humanity without extreme difficulties at the very least.

[TheCountAlucard]

My insistence that the Primordials be given proper respect is purely philosophical; "if it has stats, it can be killed," with the understanding that such a thing can easily be planned out in the abstract, but it need not have stats to be killed. I feel assigning stats to any of the big names beyond Ligier's "easy mode" is a mistake, that all the mystique is being sapped away. Punching the endless, formless embodiment of dickery because you're that awesome is better than punching a 50 mile long giant snake because your dice pool is "this big."

I've seen the Ebon Dragon's stats; I didn't think of them for a second, however, when my character decided to attack the Ebon Dragon headlong.

For that matter, I don't bother thinking of his stats when I RP as him in my Infernals game. His attempts to appeal to Elloge to join the Reclamation failed because he'd inadverdently become our Fiend's whipping-boy during a pivotal point in negotiations, not because he didn't have enough dice, or that Elloge just used a social perfect.

[Yuki Akuma]

The only parts of Ebbie's official stats I pay attention to are his permanent Essence, his Virtue ratings, his Greater Imperfection and the fact that he has every Ebon Dragon charm and probably lots of other Yozi charms.

Of course that's basically his entire stat block...

(I still love the fact that officially Primordials have a charm which is essentially "I Am This Guy". And if a Solaroid is stupid enough to take it, he becomes That Guy.)

[Rikandur Azebol]

Because some want the primordials to be super-special beings.

They were super-special beings. Exalted are basically human, given unstoppable power. Just like Gensh pointed out, by defeating Primoridials and cutting them down to fit into "human mind-scape", Exalted transformed Primordials into something on their own level. Petty beings who abuse their powers. Namely, Yozis.

Yozis are monsters because it is how they were made to be. Otherwise Exalted wouldn't feel righteous, right ?

"They were monsters so we defeated them !" sounds thousand times better than "We stole universe from those who made it." right ?

It is a human habit of self-justification. With the creation of Yozis we see the extreme example of it.

Some go so far to want them to basically be in the right, though some favor simply being misunderstood.

I think were You to create a world, and do whatever inside said world, I would say everything You do is right ... when You do it in Your own world. Whatever the creations of Yours do to You, though, be it good or bad I would say they shouldn't.

That is the source of my opinion that Primordials had the right to make whatever with the Creation. They could create whole races out of essence ? Yes, so they can destroy whole races.

Exalted usurped the same "right" and destroyed almost everything. Did they created anything truly new ? Not that I am aware of. Thus I dare to say that Unconquered Sun and his Chosen were wrong. If You can't fix something, don't break it just because You can.

[aetherialDawn]

Petty beings who abuse their powers.

Actually, the Primordials were petty too. They chose to abandon their search for a Shining Answer because they were tired, and created a world with the intent, not of regaining their strength and making something more of themselves, but simply of relaxing. They could have been more, and they chose to be less - before humanity even existed.

Their great power means only that their less was still large, not that they should be praised for giving up.

[Dragnar]

Well, first off, I'd suggest posting it on the WW forums. There are quite a few more experienced mechanics people over there.

Yeah, I plan to post it there later. Just getting a bit of feedback in a smaller group first.

Revealing Untrue Truths: The idea seems fine, but something about the execution makes me wary of the charm: probably the fact that it uses quite a few dice (willpower being easy to boost) against a fairly difficult to raise stat, and that the only way to avoid it is to hemorrhage willpower. Not sure I like the combination, because while each on it's own seems okay, it's the together part that makes it in my mind an issue.

Well, it's effect is fairly weak. In a one on one fight, you need to beat them by at LEAST 2 sux to make it work your time, and if they spend some WP... well, you just wasted 3 ticks. It's better in a team fight, but that's why it's a once-per-fight thing.

Disregarding Frivolous Distractions is fine, though it makes foes with area of effect anti-shaping tech much more dangerous.

Indeed. As it says in there, it needs reworded for clarity. But it can pretty much tell any enemy without one of those to just buzz off for a bit. It's an awful PD, but it lets you focus on a single task, without being interrupted by other pressing matters until afterward.

Mental Blow method would probably be fine it you made bypass normal combat perfect, and rely on Social ones.

Really? I'd think that would make it even stronger, thanks to it letting a social character kill a combat-focused one without them having a CHANCE to defend.

Inner Wealth Revealed is likewise good, and again means that area-of-effect anti-shaping is dangerous.

Yeah... come to think of it, it might be a good idea to include some way to resist anti-shaping, or just take it off this charm.

Unending Wellspring of Questions Form gets only one question from me: do the Aim actions give any benefit?

Yes. Up to the usual benefit anyway. (Meaning a couple ticks will still be wasted, beyond the +3 bonus)

Oh, and regarding the favored weapons... I don't like the mechanic, as since you can only have a maximum of 3 specialties in any ability, it seems rather harsh.

True... I always forget about that limit. Do you have a better suggestion for Form Weapons? That's the bit I had the most trouble with.

[Lord Raziere]

…..No.

If I were to create my own world, I'd treat my creations with respect. I was given free will- why not allow it to others? If they respect and befriend me, if I don't force them to do whatever I want- they won't rebel. One does not have any right to determine the choices and fate of others, even if they made them- otherwise, would not your mother and father have the right to kill you and do whatever they want with you?

I create, but I would never wish to dominate.

[aetherialDawn]

…..No.

If I were to create my own world, I'd treat my creations with respect. I was given free will- why not allow it to others? If they respect and befriend me, if I don't force them to do whatever I want- they won't rebel. One does not have any right to determine the choices and fate of others, even if they made them- otherwise, would not your mother and father have the right to kill you and do whatever they want with you?

I create, but I would never wish to dominate.

I'm betting this is a downright lie. Have you ever erased something you drew, ever?
That is how the Primordials saw, and were capable of seeing, their creations. They didn't seen sapience as the signifier of a complete being, but as a signifier of a part of a being in the same way your finger is a part of you. They quite literally could be conceived of more accurately as civilizations than as people. (Though neither is wholly accurate.)

[Gensh]

…..No.

If I were to create my own world, I'd treat my creations with respect. I was given free will- why not allow it to others? If they respect and befriend me, if I don't force them to do whatever I want- they won't rebel. One does not have any right to determine the choices and fate of others, even if they made them- otherwise, would not your mother and father have the right to kill you and do whatever they want with you?

I create, but I would never wish to dominate.

Keep in mind that, like the creation of Sol, Free Will was only given to the various created beings because the Dragon appealed to the King's vanity (though Isidoros may have also been in favor). Otherwise, he would have acceded to SWLIHN's demands that Free Will be kept amongst themselves (and she doesn't even like that). The Primordials were too used to dealing with automaton playthings in Zen Mu to really understand that even the restricted gods could think outside of their purview. Even those who tried (at least Szoreny, possibly Kimbery and some others), simply could not wrap their heads around the idea, and that's considering how long they ruled Creation. If they treat their own first circle souls as expendable, why should they care for even weaker things that do not belong to them?

[Lord Raziere]

I'm betting this is a downright lie. Have you ever erased something you drew, ever?
That is how the Primordials saw, and were capable of seeing, their creations. They didn't seen sapience as the signifier of a complete being, but as a signifier of a part of a being in the same way your finger is a part of you. They quite literally could be conceived of more accurately as civilizations than as people. (Though neither is wholly accurate.)

I can't remember of one time that I did.

Do not accuse me of lying about my beliefs, my principles.

[DeadManSleeping]

…..No.

If I were to create my own world, I'd treat my creations with respect. I was given free will- why not allow it to others? If they respect and befriend me, if I don't force them to do whatever I want- they won't rebel. One does not have any right to determine the choices and fate of others, even if they made them- otherwise, would not your mother and father have the right to kill you and do whatever they want with you?

I create, but I would never wish to dominate.

This is a valid perspective of something that was actually created and fostered by something else (in your case, other people). Primordials were not created by other beings. There is no reason for them to have a sense of responsibility for ANYTHING, because responsibility for lesser beings never factored into their lives in any way until they went ahead and created lesser beings. Well, no reason other than them creating the idea of responsibility for fun.

Really, visiting the actions of incomprehensible swirls of transcendent thought might be an exercise in futility.

[Andreaz]

I can't remember of one time that I did.

Do not accuse me of lying about my beliefs, my principles.

The thing is... "free will" is sacred for the same reasons lives are: we are alive, and we believe we have free will.
Distantiate from that, and there's really nothing to it. And his analogy is right...to the primordial mindset, we are barely different from things like personal scribblings with crayons.

Did you ever step on an ant without pitying its death, ever threw away a reasonably new product you bought or made without pitying its waste? That's a good way of understanding how the primordials think about mortals.

[Kyeudo]

If we put it in terms Thomas Aquinas used, Primordials are necessary beings while we are dependant beings. That makes it hard to use the same basis of moral judgement on both groups. You could try to apply Kantian ethics to both, but the thing is that Primordials also don't meet the definition of rational that Kant's arguements rely upon.

In the end, we must either conclude that Primordials are either outside of normal moral judgements or that they are on the same moral level as animals, inherently innocent despite whatever horrid thing they might do.

[aetherialDawn]

If we put it in terms Thomas Aquinas used, Primordials are necessary beings while we are dependant beings. That makes it hard to use the same basis of moral judgement on both groups. You could try to apply Kantian ethics to both, but the thing is that Primordials also don't meet the definition of rational that Kant's arguements rely upon.

In the end, we must either conclude that Primordials are either outside of normal moral judgements or that they are on the same moral level as animals, inherently innocent despite whatever horrid thing they might do.

Or that, having people inside them and being made up of people, it is still possible to apply moral judgements to them - but to do so consists of applying them to every second and third circle soul, as well as the relationships between those souls, since that is what a Primordial is made of.
Or rather, MOST of what a Primordial is made of.
They are outside of the normal moral systems we have, because we have not made a system to account for them. That hardly means their actions cannot be judged, only that our normal tools were not meant to judge this case. We can certainly, however, judge individual second and third circle souls. The best choices to start with would likely be the fetich souls of yozis we know did not undergo fetich death.

[Turalisj]

{scrubbed}

[Kyeudo]

Or that, having people inside them and being made up of people, it is still possible to apply moral judgements to them - but to do so consists of applying them to every second and third circle soul, as well as the relationships between those souls, since that is what a Primordial is made of.
Or rather, MOST of what a Primordial is made of.
They are outside of the normal moral systems we have, because we have not made a system to account for them. That hardly means their actions cannot be judged, only that our normal tools were not meant to judge this case. We can certainly, however, judge individual second and third circle souls. The best choices to start with would likely be the fetich souls of yozis we know did not undergo fetich death.

Then Malfeas must be a pretty okay guy, because Ligier is a pretty okay guy.

[Tavar]

{scrubbed}

No! Don't leave use. We're doing other things.....See? Dragnar made a SMA!

Well, it's effect is fairly weak. In a one on one fight, you need to beat them by at LEAST 2 sux to make it work your time, and if they spend some WP... well, you just wasted 3 ticks. It's better in a team fight, but that's why it's a once-per-fight thing.

The issue is that spending WP is a big deal.

Actually, I'll change my opinion: the charm is broken, in the sense it's either going to be horribly overpowered, or horribly under powered, due to scaling. Namely, the fact that it seems there's nothing that an opponent can do to block it besides spending WP, and the poor scaling of the defense. At the same time, it is hard to make it succeed, especially as you grow in power( or start fighting more non-exalted enemies, who tend to have higher essence values for their combat potential).

I think the best bet is to change the defense value to something that scales better, and to make it target something with defenses. Which brings me to something else, which I'll get into below.

Indeed. As it says in there, it needs reworded for clarity. But it can pretty much tell any enemy without one of those to just buzz off for a bit. It's an awful PD, but it lets you focus on a single task, without being interrupted by other pressing matters until afterward.

Which is good for a SMA: they shouldn't provide true basics for fighting, but should give you nice powers. A normally overpriced perfect, but one that lasts for multiple actions and has other uses as well? Perfect. The weakness to shaping let's it remain not overpowered.

Really? I'd think that would make it even stronger, thanks to it letting a social character kill a combat-focused one without them having a CHANCE to defend.

True. Oh, and the language is off(you should refer to charms that have flaws of invulnerability). I guess it's fine as is, then.

Yeah... come to think of it, it might be a good idea to include some way to resist anti-shaping, or just take it off this charm.

How about any Shaping effect that would counter this effect goes to roll off, with the Martial Artist getting [MA] successes on the roll.

Yes. Up to the usual benefit anyway. (Meaning a couple ticks will still be wasted, beyond the +3 bonus)

Might want to make it explicit(like, say: they gain all normal benefits from taking the aim action).

True... I always forget about that limit. Do you have a better suggestion for Form Weapons? That's the bit I had the most trouble with.

Maybe... you may designate one form weapon for each point of lore after the 3rd one.


Also, and this is hard to say, mostly because the full style isn't up yet, but I think the style needs a bit more focus mechanically in terms of the rolls it need. I mean, you need a (Int+Willpower), (charisma/manipulation + presence + essence), and (Essence + martial arts + lore). There will also, presumably, be charms that require Dex+Martial arts.

You should probably cut out some of those, to really focus on 1 ability besides MA.

[Dragnar]

The issue is that spending WP is a big deal.

Actually, I'll change my opinion: the charm is broken, in the sense it's either going to be horribly overpowered, or horribly under powered, due to scaling. Namely, the fact that it seems there's nothing that an opponent can do to block it besides spending WP, and the poor scaling of the defense. At the same time, it is hard to make it succeed, especially as you grow in power( or start fighting more non-exalted enemies, who tend to have higher essence values for their combat potential).

I think the best bet is to change the defense value to something that scales better, and to make it target something with defenses. Which brings me to something else, which I'll get into below.

Fair enough. I'll look into changing the needed rolls(possibly on both sides), to make it more even.

Which is good for a SMA: they shouldn't provide true basics for fighting, but should give you nice powers. A normally overpriced perfect, but one that lasts for multiple actions and has other uses as well? Perfect. The weakness to shaping let's it remain not overpowered.

Awesome, I'm glad you agree. It's by far the most... ambitious charm in the style.

How about any Shaping effect that would counter this effect goes to roll off, with the Martial Artist getting [MA] successes on the roll.


Might want to make it explicit(like, say: they gain all normal benefits from taking the aim action).

I like both those changes. *makes note to add them*

Maybe... you may designate one form weapon for each point of lore after the 3rd one.

That might work... I'll think about it, see what other options I can come up with before deciding.

Also, and this is hard to say, mostly because the full style isn't up yet, but I think the style needs a bit more focus mechanically in terms of the rolls it need. I mean, you need a (Int+Willpower), (charisma/manipulation + presence + essence), and (Essence + martial arts + lore). There will also, presumably, be charms that require Dex+Martial arts.

You should probably cut out some of those, to really focus on 1 ability besides MA.

Fair point. The post-form stuff is all Elder Essence, but it should still flow from the same stuff... I like the reliance on int/lore, but the WP/charisma/presence can probably be cut out easily enough...

[aetherialDawn]

Then Malfeas must be a pretty okay guy, because Ligier is a pretty okay guy.

Not at all what I said.

...Perhaps the argumentativeness is a curse brought on by Samsara rebelling against the idea of a pretty good SMA? Poor siddies...

[Rikandur Azebol]

Lord Raziere, while I respect Your opinion about fact that You believe in humanitarian point of view, on average it isn't how things tend to happen. In My Opinion, of course.

Primordials that felt anything towards their lessers spanned the usual comprehensible reactions we could associate with children. From "tear the fly's wings" to "drop sugar on the anthill".

But ... these children were ones who made Creation out of their own selves. A little gratitude wouldn't be incomprehensible, right ? Without this ... change, that seem to hurt Raksha's feelings, the mortal races/gods/etc wouldn't ever come to be.

My personal judgment of Primordials, Exalted and Unconquered Sun stems from what fluff says about the actions they undertook. On average their actions are ... typical. Some bad some nice, but overall, Yozis-to-be created more than Exalts who took over after them.

UCS was created in image of what Dragon's Shadow and Empyreal Chaos thought on what "perfection" is. DS wanted something opposite of himself to come to be, and suceeded. And IMO it couldn't led to creation of perfect being since DS weren't the ... perfectly imperfect being. Embodying the fifth virtue, Will, by willing himself into existence like no one before. That alone marks Unconquered Sun as imperfect by default.

Why I say so ? Because Raksha made themselves "compatible" with Existence wrought by Primordials trough the crucible of these five virtues and Unconquered Sun embodies and perfects only four of them.

Actually, the Primordials were petty too. They chose to abandon their search for a Shining Answer because they were tired, and created a world with the intent, not of regaining their strength and making something more of themselves, but simply of relaxing. They could have been more, and they chose to be less - before humanity even existed.

Their great power means only that their less was still large, not that they should be praised for giving up.

That is a nice one. So ... Primordials made a temporary resort to have fun inside, and let loose. And I remember that only Gaia was "fixated" on the Shining Answer. And Luna nearly failed in keeping Gaia in.

And to be honest I made slight mistake by sounding too judgmental. Imprisonment changes people, and those who change for better are exception. Norm is change for worse. And I believe that "creation" of Yozis was the greatest mistake Exalted ever did. Deliberately destroying nicer aspect of the defeated Primordials ? Transforming Holy Tyrant into Big Bully is a classic example.

Gensh's project, while I disagree with his compassionate approach, seem to be the only sane option of all I heard about "what to do with Yozis".

[Yuki Akuma]

I consider the Yozis (well, all Primordials, but especially the ones that became Yozis) to be people with severe and dangerous psychological problems.

So, like anyone with such psychological problems, they can't be held accountable for their actions, but they also can't simply be let to roam around and do whatever they like.

Of course, someone should probably be trying to help them through their issues (if that's even possible), but...

[Qaera]

The Yozis are children in an asylum, &c.

~ ♅

[aetherialDawn]

One wonders why the Yozis/Primordials cause such arguments. What parts of them cause us to care, and what parts are difficult to work through?
(In other words, why don't we get into some meta-arguments instead?)

[KaganMonk]

And now a word from our sponsors:

2.5 likely by the end of the week. Hatewheel has it and is tweaking, but has midterms and some Shards work.

We now return you to your Yozi Love/Hate discussion.

[Rockphed]

One wonders why the Yozis/Primordials cause such arguments. What parts of them cause us to care, and what parts are difficult to work through?
(In other words, why don't we get into some meta-arguments instead?)

Because we cannot discuss the religions of earth, we instead discuss the religions and philosophies of creation drawing our ammo from the philosophy of earth. We argue because some of us conflate the primordials with our Gods while others conflate them with our Demons. Neither is right. Neither is wrong. So we argue endlessly while the sun burns out.