LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

[KenderWizard]

He just wrote me this poem:

And he posted it on Facebook and tagged me in it. Ahhhhhhhh...

That's so adorable!

Less good news: a really transphobic posing as feminists page on Facebook (Trigger Warning: Transphobia). It'd be nice if those of you with FB accounts could take a few moments to report it so that we can get rid of it.

Ew. The first couple of posts when I looked at it were fine, and I was like "This isn't so bad" and then raging-trans-hate-dump. Aside from the blatant hate speech, way to go making it even harder for trans people to get involved in the feminist movement.

[Asta Kask]

Ew. The first couple of posts when I looked at it were fine, and I was like "This isn't so bad" and then raging-trans-hate-dump. Aside from the blatant hate speech, way to go making it even harder for trans people to get involved in the feminist movement.

Isn't that more or less the idea? They don't want trans people.

[noparlpf]

Isn't that more or less the idea? They don't want trans people.

Blah I don't even.
I can't English right now. Too much what.

[Coidzor]

Isn't that more or less the idea? They don't want trans people.

Indeed, darndest thing, too, since the movement seems to mostly function these days by managing to make egalitarian ideas become ubiquitous or near enough.

Especially when Natalie Reed's recently linked blog post suggests that there's an unfortunately not-rare undercurrent of horribad sexism wandering around in the trans community. At least some of that relating to a sort of tit for tat mindset that, even if one doesn't blame elements of feminism for starting, there's someone continuing it.

[Viera Champion]

So my friends church is holding a GAYla (gay gala if you cannot figure it out) Dance. on the 30th. Hoping I can go.

[Asta Kask]

Remember - pictures!

[Astrella]

Isn't that more or less the idea? They don't want trans people.

Well, this is only a small subset of feminists. (Most of them are radical feminists (not all radical feminists are horrible like this though!) who still cling very strongly to 2nd wave feminist ideas with regards to gender.)

I'm hesitant to call them true feminists though because one of the core or even the core tennet of feminism is "the radical idea that women are people too", which they are breaking majorly here.

[Asta Kask]

From their point of view, they're not breaking any tenets.

Warning! Transphobia!

Spoiler

Show

To them, 'trans women' aren't women. They're men who want to be women, for whatever reason. If you are born with a penis you're a man and always will be. You can mutilate your body all you want, but womanhood will always elude you.

Not a nice position, but not really logically inconsistent.

[The Bandicoot]

I looked at the page and as I slowly scrolled down the page I got more and more angry until I just closed it out. It's not just the transfobia that bothers me its thr accusing of everyone being a MRA and bashing them. My brain just kinda broke at the hypocrisy.

[noparlpf]

From their point of view, they're not breaking any tenets.

Warning! Transphobia!

Spoiler

Show

To them, 'trans women' aren't women. They're men who want to be women, for whatever reason. If you are born with a penis you're a man and always will be. You can mutilate your body all you want, but womanhood will always elude you.

Not a nice position, but not really logically inconsistent.

Well, based on their position that gender is a social construct and not a real thing, sure.

I'm not sure how that link to the dude's penis getting bitten off by a raccoon relates to feminism. I'm actually not sure how anything on that page relates to feminism. Most of the stuff on there is just about how transwomen aren't women. Nothing really feminist on there.

[Asta Kask]

I think they believe trans women are spies from the patriarchy out to lay their hands on secret female plans. Possibly by spying on them in the restrooms.

[The Bandicoot]

I think they believe trans women are spies from the patriarchy out to lay their hands on secret female plans. Possibly by spying on them in the restrooms.

You mean they've figured out The Patriarchy's plans? Oh no!

[Mono Vertigo]

I think they believe trans women are spies from the patriarchy out to lay their hands on secret female plans. Possibly by spying on them in the restrooms.

That, or more seriously, those who believe that transwomen ARE women tend to keep in mind the stereotype of the not very pretty "man" who wears fabulously feminine clothes and make-up and have fabulously girly activities (mostly shopping), AKA that other stereotype, the one of the fabulously feminine gay guy, but in drags.
And in their mind, these people hurt feminism because they reinforce gender roles, where women are women because they care a lot about their appearance, wear pink, cook, go shopping, etc.

They don't understand that the average MtF is NOT such a raging stereotype. In fact, many of them, once they start transitioning or passing, do engage in stereotypically feminine activities and behaviours... so that they can pass better. That's right, they don't conform to the stereotype because they think it's an integral part to their identity or because they like it, but only because that's a small sacrifice to make in order to increase the chances of being considered a woman. When faced with an androgynous person who likes cars and football, the (unfortunately) common assumption made is that this person is a man.
The same goes for FtM. In fact, my boyfriend did exactly this until his hormone therapy had satisfying effects. He's really more of an effeminate/queer (in his own words) guy, but he had avoided wearing certain clothes, using nail polish, or cultivating his androgynous side for a while, only because people could take the wrong hints and treat him as a woman. Now, he considers to have enough masculine characteristics to just do whatever he wants in public and not fear the result.

TL;DR: some of these feminists mistake genuine desires with "survival" strategies.

[Asta Kask]

It's not like there's an official Feminists' Creed anywhere anyway. Playing No True Scotsman isn't going to clarify the situation. They're feminists and belong to a small, lunatic sect within that movement.

[H Birchgrove]

I think they believe trans women are spies from the patriarchy out to lay their hands on secret female plans. Possibly by spying on them in the restrooms.

That reminds me of a scene in Patton, when Montgomery and another (British?) officer makes some battle plan while being in a public restroom.

Mind, that film took a few liberties with historical facts...

[Parra]

I may ramble a bit here and I may inadvertently cause offence, but please understand that if I do it's through ingnorance not malice. And if I do please feel free to correct me.

Onward.
I'm trying to better understand the whole transgender thing. I have long been under the opinion that if a man undergoes a sex change that he is not a woman, but a modified & implanted man (and vice versa for gender swapping the other way), but that there is also nothing wrong with being a modified man/woman.
From a very brief reading of the last few posts/pages hereI'm not so sure that I'm correct. Can anyone help clarify this for me, or point me somewhere I can learn more about it?

If it matters or helps in understanding my viewpoint I would like to say that I consider myself to be straight (though I did experiment a bit in my teens) and have no objection in any way to gay/lesbian/other lifestyle choices.
How you choose to present yourself to the world should not be tied to your gender. I have an extreme dislike of any sexist behaviour in any form.
I believe that gender should have no impact in how people perceive you.

However I also believe that if you a born a man, no matter how you live your life, you are still a man

[Castaras]

I may ramble a bit here and I may inadvertently cause offence, but please understand that if I do it's through ingnorance not malice. And if I do please feel free to correct me.

Onward.
I'm trying to better understand the whole transgender thing. I have long been under the opinion that if a man undergoes a sex change that he is not a woman, but a modified & implanted man (and vice versa for gender swapping the other way), but that there is also nothing wrong with being a modified man/woman.
From a very brief reading of the last few posts/pages hereI'm not so sure that I'm correct. Can anyone help clarify this for me, or point me somewhere I can learn more about it?

If it matters or helps in understanding my viewpoint I would like to say that I consider myself to be straight (though I did experiment a bit in my teens) and have no objection in any way to gay/lesbian/other lifestyle choices.
How you choose to present yourself to the world should not be tied to your gender. I have an extreme dislike of any sexist behaviour in any form.
I believe that gender should have no impact in how people perceive you.

However I also believe that if you a born a man, no matter how you live your life, you are still a man

I'm sure someone will link you Natalie Reed (that the right name?), but basically - the Gender that your brain has is a separate entity to the biological state of your genitals. While most people have both their Gender and Biological sex being the same, some are born with their brain wired differently to their biological sex. They change it so that they have the right genitals for their gender.

So it's not a man changing himself to be a woman, it's a woman finally getting the right body bits, if that makes any sense.

*note, all this coming from a cis-straight person and is her understanding of it, be prepared for my definition to get jumped on and have zillions of corrections.

[Asta Kask]

However I also believe that if you a born a man, no matter how you live your life, you are still a man

But how do you define 'man'? From what I understand, a trans woman would argue that she was born a woman, it's just that her body happened to have male bits. That the important thing is not stuff like secondary sexual characteristics but what she identifies as. Since trans people are very rare, most of the time we can assume that a person with male secondary characteristics also identifies as male - but this isn't always true. And what do we do then?

Well, if we believe that humans have a right to self-determination I would argue that we must say that a trans woman is a woman - and that her transitional status is irrelevant.

And this is not even mentioning the various forms of genderqueer. Mostly because I'm not familiar with them at all.

Also, keep in mind that I learned most of this in the last six months. It is exceedingly possible that I've misunderstood something, but I have a big mouth.

[Mina Kobold]

I think they believe trans women are spies from the patriarchy out to lay their hands on secret female plans. Possibly by spying on them in the restrooms.

If that was the case, the boys at my school would have figured out long ago. Everybody have to help getting the table tennis tables for the tournament of the Demon Lord Achatla, and those are in the Girl's Changing and Resting Room. Of doominess. :3

It's not like there's an official Feminists' Creed anywhere anyway. Playing No True Scotsman isn't going to clarify the situation. They're feminists and belong to a small, lunatic sect within that movement.

Well, none that you know of.
>_>
<_<

And now I am imagining Feminist knight's templars fighting the Patriarchy's Samuraii Inquisition. I really should draw some of the things my brain tell me. O_o

Also, more congratulations and D'awws to Shiro.

But if anybody asks, they are ironical D'awws. I could lose my Hipster Sigil for D'awwing at something from Facebook.

[Parra]

But would a trans woman not still be a man with, for lack of better word, feminine leanings (That's clumsily stated but I hope you understand my meaning)

[bluewind95]

However I also believe that if you a born a man, no matter how you live your life, you are still a man

Oh, but, see, a transwoman is not born a man. She is born a woman. However, her body is "deformed", so to speak. It has the wrong bits. When one has a "deformity", they can either live with it, or, better yet, correct it. Sexual Reassignment Surgery, transitioning... it's not "making a man into a woman". It's correcting the body. The "deformity", if you will, leaving the body as it is properly meant to be.

[Asta Kask]

But would a trans woman not still be a man with, for lack of better word, feminine leanings (That's clumsily stated but I hope you understand my meaning)

Again, what definition of 'man' are you using? I say the only relevant definition is "what do they self-identify as". And trans women can be plenty butch - that's not the issue. The issue is that they say they're women and we really have no good reason to contradict that.

[Astrella]

The thing is, even something as apparently obvious as sex is hard to define and is definitely not a binary thing. (eg. various forms of being intersex; women with AIS (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) for example have XY chromosones, etc.. ) There is quite a bit of proof and investigation into our brain having a form of neurological sex; dysphoria would be caused by the mismatch between the body-map in trans* people's brains and their actual bodies. (The bodily part of dysphoria at least.)

I also think you are mixing up masculinity / femininity with gender identity. Just like cis (non-trans) men and women can have varying degrees of masculinity and femininity, so is the case for trans* people as well. (butch trans women and feminine trans men exist too! And that's not getting into non-binary identified people.) transsexuals aren't "really gay" cis people; a trans man is not a very butch woman, etc... The difference between say a butch woman and a trans man is that the first is / identifies as a woman, and the second one as a man; even if their gender presentation could appear similar at first.

Answers to your questions about transgender people, gender identity and gender expression.: This might be useful. (Maybe we can add this to the original post too?)

[Parra]

Oh, but, see, a transwoman is not born a man. She is born a woman. However, her body is "deformed", so to speak. It has the wrong bits. When one has a "deformity", they can either live with it, or, better yet, correct it. Sexual Reassignment Surgery, transitioning... it's not "making a man into a woman". It's correcting the body. The "deformity", if you will, leaving the body as it is properly meant to be.

I dunno, I guess I would rather have a woman with man parts be happy with how they were made without feeling the need to 'correct' themselves to fit into a society enforced niche.
But what you said is certainly food for thought.

I wonder though about other birth 'defects', such as dwarfism (just the only one that comes to mind right now), and how they are perceived. Are we not encouraged to simply accept them as they are, that there is nothing wrong with them and that they a simply a little different.
Why would/should/is that be different to how a transgender person should be perceived?

[Mina Kobold]

I may ramble a bit here and I may inadvertently cause offence, but please understand that if I do it's through ingnorance not malice. And if I do please feel free to correct me.

Onward.
I'm trying to better understand the whole transgender thing. I have long been under the opinion that if a man undergoes a sex change that he is not a woman, but a modified & implanted man (and vice versa for gender swapping the other way), but that there is also nothing wrong with being a modified man/woman.
From a very brief reading of the last few posts/pages hereI'm not so sure that I'm correct. Can anyone help clarify this for me, or point me somewhere I can learn more about it?

If it matters or helps in understanding my viewpoint I would like to say that I consider myself to be straight (though I did experiment a bit in my teens) and have no objection in any way to gay/lesbian/other lifestyle choices.
How you choose to present yourself to the world should not be tied to your gender. I have an extreme dislike of any sexist behaviour in any form.
I believe that gender should have no impact in how people perceive you.

However I also believe that if you a born a man, no matter how you live your life, you are still a man

It's quite a lot more complicated than it looks. One oft used example is a few rare conditions where a person develop one set of genitalia and sexual characteristics despite their chromosomal make-up being the standard for another one. Does XY chromosomes make them male? Or does female genitalia make them female? :3

And that would merely determine the physical sex as seen in Genetical and Physiological Biology, the mental gender is an issue of Neurology and Psychology. Both of which accept the existence of Gender Dysphoria as far as I know. ^_^

Also not an issue of how one is percieved, as far as I can tell. A lot of trans people try to be percieved as their target gender in a higher degree than cis people, but that stems from how mistakes are treated with cis ("Oh, you're a boy? My mistake, the hair confused me!") and trans ("You are no boy! [Insert bigoted violence and slurs here]!") people.

Also, you might be priviledged by not having conflicts between your gender and your sex. I hear that imagining how you would feel if suddenly transformed to another gender and having everybody but you insist that you have always been that gender works. I am genderqueer, however, so I have no clue if that works.

But would a trans woman not still be a man with, for lack of better word, feminine leanings (That's clumsily stated but I hope you understand my meaning)

No clue what you mean, sorry. m(_ _)m

Bear in mind that I am bad at social stuff, so my failure here does not say anything about your ability to make understandable statements. ^_^'

Also, I am aware that most of this is repeating what has been said. Sorry. m(_ _)m

[golentan]

But would a trans woman not still be a man with, for lack of better word, feminine leanings (That's clumsily stated but I hope you understand my meaning)

No. Man and Woman are cultural definitions. They are social constructs. A transwoman may still be male by some definitions of the word (genetically, for instance, isn't likely to be solved soon), but she is a woman because that is the persona she chooses. Though "chooses" is the wrong word: just as you know you are a man or woman and (for reasons that escape me, but that's another rant) would feel uncomfortable if you woke up the wrong sex, so too do transpeople know they are their gender and feel uncomfortable because their body and the way people treat them does not match that.

It's not about acting feminine or masculine, either. Because, as mentioned, you can have butch transwomen and effeminate transmen. It's not about the clothing, because we have a word for folks who are only interested in crossdressing: crossdressers. It's about changing your own body to what it should be.

I can't claim to understand why trans people feel the way they do. I'm dating a lovely transwoman, and I can mouth the words of support and genuinely want her to be happy as best I can (which means supporting her transition), but I can't even begin to understand her motivation for doing so. But I can recognize it is a real thing. She isn't a man dressing up as a woman, she is just a woman. A lovely, sweet, wonderful woman who has been betrayed by society and her body. I've seen the sort of pain that it's caused her, and the way she's turned somewhat cynical to defend herself and the way she's taken to preempting further pain. And I want to make it better. I want her to be happy, to recognize that she can reach out more than she has, and to feel comfortable in the world and her own skin. So even though I don't understand why she hurts, I'll move heaven and earth to try and make a world where she doesn't have to hurt. That's why, even though maybe I don't understand the real problem any better than you do, I do want you to understand that it is a real problem.

[Glass Mouse]

Why would/should/is that be different to how a transgender person should be perceived?

Interesting question. My answer would be, "because we can".

We don't tell asthmatics to stay off the soccer team. We give them breathers and let them do what makes them happy. We don't let people with terminal illnesses die, we do our best to save them. We don't let broken legs stay and just do our best to accept people as disabled, we do our best to heal it. In every way that we can, we improve and fix humans whenever something is wrong... and only when that is not possible, the resigned acceptance starts.

So why not transgenderism as well?


This is from a non-trans* perspective, though, so I may be completely off-base.

[bluewind95]

I wonder though about other birth 'defects', such as dwarfism (just the only one that comes to mind right now), and how they are perceived. Are we not encouraged to simply accept them as they are, that there is nothing wrong with them and that they a simply a little different.
Why would/should/is that be different to how a transgender person should be perceived?

I'm sure there's a number of people with dwarfism that, if there actually were a way to correct it, they'd LOVE to get it. Dwarfism, sadly, has no fix. Being born with the wrong bits does.

[KenderWizard]

Isn't that more or less the idea? They don't want trans people.

Yeah, but I do, and plenty of feminists do, and we try be all "Hey, you should come join us, and we can help each other in this f**ked up kyriarchy!" and then someone comes along like that and is like "I SPEAK FOR FEMINISM AND I SAY [hate speech towards trans people goes here]" and then the trans people don't want to be associated with us (which is reasonable, if that's the first thing they're confronted with) and the dreaded Kyriarch claims another victory.

Well, based on their position that gender is a social construct and not a real thing, sure.

I'm not sure how that link to the dude's penis getting bitten off by a raccoon relates to feminism. I'm actually not sure how anything on that page relates to feminism. Most of the stuff on there is just about how transwomen aren't women. Nothing really feminist on there.

Well, except the name. Being told by random male strangers to smile for them is creepy, wrong, infuriating, and bizarrely common for women. But yeah, none of the actual posts are doing anything for gender equality.

But would a trans woman not still be a man with, for lack of better word, feminine leanings (That's clumsily stated but I hope you understand my meaning)

Nope. It's a bit tricky to understand because of the culture we're surrounded by which constantly conflates gender identity, gender expression and biological sex into one immutable, unchangeable Thing.

Gender identity: that bit of our mind that tells us we are a woman, a man, or some other gender (such as genderfluid)

Gender expression: how we express ourselves which gives cues to other people about our gender - these are cultural and not hardwired

Biological sex: our genitals - not really anyone else's business

I have a gender identity, I identify as female. Because I was lucky enough to be born into a biologically female body, I have no problems here, and my gender identity is just a thing in my mind somewhere that says I'm a woman. I'm called a cis woman. I control my gender expression: I like to wear dresses sometimes, which is a feminine expression in our culture, but I don't wear make-up and I like wearing sturdy boots. My identity as a woman doesn't force me to do feminine things, nor should it preclude me from doing masculine things.

A trans woman, like Natalie Reed, was born as a woman. She has that same gender identity thing in her mind somewhere, and it tells her she's a female. But unfortunately, as sometimes happens, she was born in a male body. That means she was raised as a boy, because usually, a child born in a male body is a boy. But she knew, or realised, that she was really a girl. Her body didn't fit right, and that is very difficult to live with, and very difficult for someone who hasn't experienced it to understand. So she's called a trans woman, because she transitioned to expressing herself as female. Lots of trans people get surgery, not because they have feminine "urges" or whatever, but because their body is wrong. They don't have to, and if a trans woman doesn't get surgery to get a female body, that doesn't mean she's not a woman, because it's her gender identity that's important. Some trans women are girly and like pink and dresses and hanging out with women. Some trans women like trucks and boots and spending time with men. Just like some cis women like pink and some like trucks. Pink and trucks and sports and make-up aren't biological imperatives, they're just expressions of personality that are culturally more dominant in one gender. So, in one way, a trans woman is still "actually" biologically male and has a Y-chromosome, but that isn't important, and only she and her doctor and maybe her partner(s) need to know that stuff. Actually, a trans women was always a woman, but her body didn't reflect that and people were mistaken about her.

[Asta Kask]

And from what I understand, that feeling of disconnect between mind and body can be really intense. Trans people have sky-high rates of suicide attempts and thinking about it, of post-traumatic stress disorder, of self-mutilation (including trying to cut off penis or breasts)... some of it is probably due to the way society has abandoned them but I'm fairly certain some of it comes from that disconnect.

You may want to read Natalie Reed's coming-out story from her blog (warning: explicit):

Coming Out (Part One Of Four): When Coming Out Is Shutting Yourself In
Coming Out (Part Two Of Four): Spooking, Disclosure And The Revolving Closet Doors
Coming Out (Part Three Of Four): When I Actually Came Out
Coming Out (Fourth And Final Part): Why Coming Out Matters

Parts 1 and 3 are more personal, parts 2 and 4 are more theoretical but you may get some insight from all four. I did.