Familicide Mega-Thread

[Forikroder]

the guy (or girl) had a wild night with a redhead, he lived a better life then most soldiers and at least he died painlessly

or at least more painlessly then getting a near fatal wound and left to bleed to death on a battlefield

[t209]

Even though he face tragic life, he might murder thousands of people in Tarquin's puppet strings.

[OrzhvoPatriarch]

Alas, poor Weepie! I knew him, Horatio, a fellow of infinite
sadness, of most excellent depression. He hath bore me on his back a
thousand times, and now how abhorr'd in my imagination it is!
My gorge rises at it.

Sleep now, sweet prince, and may a flight of angles carry you to your tear stained rest.

[fergo]

Truly, he was the best of us .

[sam79]

I'm currently (re)reading George R.R. Martin's 'A Song of Ice and Fire', and when I came across this thread I mused; "what if someone cast Familicide on Lord Walder Frey?" It would kill anyone who is blood-related to anyone who is blood-related to Lord Frey, right? I don't really have the patience to work out all the consequences, but probably safe to say that all the major houses would be wiped out, and the rest of the Seven Kingdoms would be a pretty empty place...

[Mr. Pants]

I casted Familicide on Nale and forgot he was related to Elan...whoopsie daisies!

[Mr. Pants]

He'll have a bone to pick with Vaarsuvius...

[MyNameIsSecret]

He'll have a bone to pick with Vaarsuvius...

If he knew that it was V who killed them...

[Vulkos]

Well, I understand the one that, in another thread, yesterday ironically wrote "now I understand how theories of consipracy were born" and I usually am not into seconding them, but face the facts: we're talking about an epic level illusionist, maybe the best in the whole world!

He came to know that the OotS was looking for his gate and had all the time for planning his moves, do you really would be surprise if it will turn out that the Draketooths are still alive and the whole thing of Familicide - maybe even the Ziggurat - is a cunning illusion?

I mean, they had clues of their dragon genealogy painted on the wall of the hall in which they were all found dead!
Why should they if not to mislead?

And if the ziggurat itself was really meant not to be even seen, why should it have traps inside?

So he is alerted by the desert explosion, he gathers info on the OotS, someway finds out about Familicide (ehy, they're pretty cool, better do something to prevent them even reach my sight): "you know what? My silly second name for which fellows in high school used to mock me is starting to work at my benefit, finally"

I'm not telling I'd bet a million gold pieces on my hypothesis, maybe not even half, but I really think that we should consider the idea of Girard doing what he does best and doing it in the precise way we would expect from him: big kickass illusions.

[Winter]

I think the problem here is that Speak With Dead did work as intended. Incorporating (pun intended) that into the illusion seems very, very unlikely (not impossible, though).

But in generall I do agree: Things now (with the grave found etc) seem a tad too simple to be it all.

[Onyavar]

not a twist i expect to happen.

The point here is: OotS needs to find a way to protect the Gate on their own. Their enemies are NOT Team Evil, it's the Linear Guild they need to worry about.
Xykon and Redcloak will only marvel at the ruins of girards Gate when he reaches there. I'm pretty sure that this is bound to happen.

[AstralFire]

I can't see much story added value from the Draketooths being alive. It's too early for the Order to successfully begin getting allies that could significantly help them in the final confrontation.

[Vulkos]

I think the problem here is that Speak With Dead did work as intended. Incorporating (pun intended) that into the illusion seems very, very unlikely (not impossible, though)

Yeah, maybe it just didn't work because there's not any dead and Girard has had the illusion "talk" in order to answer to questions.
This would also be another (better?) explanation for Durkon not being able to resurrect the corpse.

For the objections based on how this twist would affect the linearity of the narration I don't have answers; they probably make all the sense but I'm more concerned about what I'd expect from the story and from the characters than calculation on what could happen in remaining strips of the current book :)

So, maybe you're right but still I cannot comprehend why on earth the Draketooth should have painted their genealogy on the wall or set traps in a building that's intended not to be reached.

[AstralFire]

Yeah, maybe it just didn't work because there's not any dead and Girard has had the illusion "talk" in order to answer to questions.
This would also be another (better?) explanation for Durkon not being able to resurrect the corpse.

For the objections based on how this twist would affect the linearity of the narration I don't have answers; they probably make all the sense but I'm more concerned about what I'd expect from the story and from the characters than calculation on what could happen in remaining strips of the current book :)

So, maybe you're right but still I cannot comprehend why on earth the Draketooth should have painted their genealogy on the wall or set traps in a building that's intended not to be reached.

Re: Geneaology. Why not? It's the dominant feature of their lives.
Re: Traps. I expect the locks on my Car to keep crooks out, this means I have no valid reason to buy a lowjack.

[D.KnightSpider]

So, maybe you're right but still I cannot comprehend why on earth the Draketooth should have painted their genealogy on the wall or set traps in a building that's intended not to be reached.

Most people put pictures of their relatives and grandparents on the walls of their houses; they also have some sort of understanding of how the family tree works. I can look up from where I sit right now and see pictures of my parents, grandparents and great-grandparents. Since Girard didn't have a Polaroid on hand, he just did the next logical thing and painted them on the wall.

Furthermore, he's established a clan with a singular purpose. I think it would be natural for him to want them to understand their history and, therefore, their mission to protect the gate. Putting a genealogy up for everyone to see would reenforce their sense of heritage and duty. It would help to remind them why they're here and how many others have have spent their lives guarding the gates and build unity among the ranks, such as it were.

S'far as traps go, again, why not put some in the interior? We know from the exploding paladin trap that Girard expected Soon to break his oath and come storming into the desert to take the gate. Girard probably anticipated that there would be a rolling battle as Soon's paladins charged up the pyramid's steps and into the hallways. In such a scenario, every little distraction and advantage for his side would be invaluable. It makes sense to me to throw some curveballs to the invading army.

[Vulkos]

Girard probably anticipated that there would be a rolling battle as Soon's paladins charged up the pyramid's steps and into the hallways

Soon's paladins would have had not supposed to be able to even SEE the ziggurat.
That's what I'm trying to say, I would not set a lowjack for an invisible car.

I can understand your skepticism, but I think that if I were to go on a quest for a gate, knowing that it will be guarded by the most powerful illusionist that ever lived and I found a scenery like that I would really keep wondering about it.

Still, Roy does not (and he does not even know about V's familicide) and I can't imagine why if not this: soooo much more surprise at the twist.

[Hazzardevil]

That's what I'm trying to say, I would not set a lowjack for an invisible car.

But Girard would, because he is the most paranoid man in OOTS so far. And remember, there's not just paladins in the Sapphire Guard, there are a few clerics and wizards, which Soon would be bound to bring along because he would know that Girard would set up defenses paladins can't get around by themselves.

[Jay R]

You're putting in a lot of effort to avoid the biggest actual dramatic moment the party has had since the 200-foot fiery letters.

Vaarsuvius has just seen the horror of the Familicide spell. S/he can no longer deny what s/he has done.

But you seem determined to do so.

No, I don't believe that the biggest, most dramatic, most heart-wrenching moment for one of our characters will be erased.

[AstralFire]

Soon's paladins would have had not supposed to be able to even SEE the ziggurat.
That's what I'm trying to say, I would not set a lowjack for an invisible car.

If there was a better than even chance there're criminals out there who can see invisibility and dispel it, I sure as hell would.

Remember they're trying to shield these gates from an entire world, specifically some of the most powerful people in that world.

[Bastian Weaver]

Well, we've seen the dead bodies, right? Can't be absolutely sure, of course, but I think it's safe to say that the Draketeeth are dead. Every one of them.
Hooray!

[t209]

At least their souls wasn't destroyed. (Maybe?)

[Fish]

Conspiracies are easy to imagine. You just say "everything that's happened so far has been manipulated by the conspiracy for reasons we don't understand."

They're harder to justify. If the illusion allows Speak With Dead, why couldn't the illusion allow Durkon to "raise" one of the bodies? Because he didn't. Therefore we twist the theory to fit the facts. The Draketooth clan had a reason for making the Gate seem undefended. What does that gain them? "We don't know!" is the answer given.

The actual answer is that the clan gains less by presenting the illusion of a ziggurat filled with the illusion of their dead selves that say illusory things if asked ... than they gain by an illusion of no ziggurat at all.

They're using the time to watch the party and learn? They gain more time watching them flail around looking. The illusion is designed to keep them from finding the Gate? They gain more time by keeping them ignorant that there is one. They gain time because the party is wasting valuable spells? The party would burn more spells against the illusion of living enemies.

So what's the point of an illusion?

[Forikroder]

i cant wait for this arc to be over so everyone stops say "well i know we see something in the comic, but tis probably jsut an illusion"

[Porthos]

Problem One: Why lower all of your defenses to have Team OotS run across your base when you can, you know, just capture them. The whole "study them" idea falls flat, IMO, because supremly paranoid people just don't sit around letting people run around their base. Who knows what they mught find and use to thier advantage?

Problem Two: You are falling into the classic trap of "Well if I am dealing with a well known liar and plotter, I can't ever believe anything I ever see. It's just another layer of the conspiracy." Sorry, but that way madness lies. Sooner or later you have to make presunptions about what is true and isn't true and move from there.

Now is it possible that someone, somehow, survivied this massace? Yeah, I'd say so. Is it possible that all of the dead bodies we've seen so far are in fact not real? No, not really.

[factotum]

Don't like to break this to you, but this theory has been going the rounds pretty much since they first discovered the room of dead people back in #841--and back then, it had the advantage of having at least some likelihood behind it. The evidence since then has been piling up that this is real.

Fact is, if you wanted to create an illusion of a room of dead people that would encourage intruders to leave, you'd make them all have died of some immediately-identifiable and extremely infectious disease. Why would you put an illusion of a family tree up on the wall? It just encourages more investigation. If you're trying to argue that the painting was put there specifically for Vaarsuvius, you are perforce saying that the Draketooth clan know enough about him to know he cast Familicide, something not even the rest of the order know--and if they know that much about V, how come they don't know that they and the Order are on the same side?

Basically, nothing about this being an illusion makes any sense. It being real and a result of Familicide not only fits the facts as presented in the story perfectly, it provides an awesome moment of character growth for V as he realises what he's done! Why throw that all away with a "Nah, it was all an illusion really" plotline?

[Talvereaux]

That'd be pretty lame if it were so.

If every major turning point of the arc turned out to be an illusion like is being speculated, it would have the dramatic impact of someone waking up and realizing it had been a dream. It's not a very exciting twist and it does a massive disservice to the audience leading them to believe the story's going somewhere and that character development is happening when in reality, nothing's going on. It might work for stories that take a more postmodern approach to narrative, but OOTS is not such a story. For that reason, from a strictly narrative perspective, I'm glad the Draketooths have been given the axe.

I figure they have traps as a means of backup planning. If they were to focus on illusions alone, they'd be putting all of their eggs in one basket.

[RMS Oceanic]

I'd say the official death knell for the "Familicide is an illusion" theorey is when Rich came into the Familicide thread and explicitly explained how it worked. If the idea that Familicide did this was to be negated, why would he do that?

[Comrade]

I'd say the official death knell for the "Familicide is an illusion" theorey is when Rich came into the Familicide thread and explicitly explained how it worked. If the idea that Familicide did this was to be negated, why would he do that?

He was in on it, clearly.

[denthor]

Quote Voukos
Well, I understand the one that, in another thread, yesterday ironically wrote "now I understand how theories of consipracy were born" and I usually am not into seconding them, but face the facts: we're talking about an epic level illusionist, maybe the best in the whole world!

I am in shock

There is no illusionist better than Eugene Greenhilt. He won the wizzie award three times. He was only beaten that one time by Suzie F.

We all know there were pay offs to judges, performance enhancement taken.

How could you taint such an honorable and Lawful wizard as Eugene Greenhilt with you untruth


This message brought you by Eugene Greenhilt from the cloud city it aint right. Epic inside

[Kish]

He was in on it, clearly.

RICH BURLEW IS ONE OF GIRARD's ILLUSIONS.