Familicide Mega-Thread

[CharityB]

Seriously, guys, one thing is saying "I really do not think this is an illusion, I totally disagree with you and I found it highly unlikely for this and that reason", and I could accept it, another one si saying "I really couldn't think a way of take advantage of the fact that my enemy thinks I don't even exist anymore".

It occurs to me...

Wouldn't it be even better if it turns out that all of the gates were unharmed? Does anyone with familiarity with the rules know if there's a way to rig it so that the spell Permanent Image was set up to make it only seem as if the gate had blown up and was destroyed, when in fact the effect was simulated by the illusion and a (mundane and magical explosive set up somewhere else in the building to bring it down?) All of the gates could be unharmed, but only look obliterated through the use of epic magic.

[factotum]

Wouldn't it be even better if it turns out that all of the gates were unharmed?

Yes, because making the last 846 strips a complete waste of time as opposed to just the last dozen would be *so much* better...

Is anyone else having flashbacks to the entire year of Dallas that turned out to be a dream? Because it seems there are people who actually want the story here to turn out like that!

[Howler Dagger]

So, in a fit of madness I have come up with my craziest theory yet. Crazier than all of my other theories! Some may not wish to read t do do its RIDICULOUS outlandishness.

What if......

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Girard is actually dead and the rest of the Draketooths were killed by familicide

Don't say I didn't warn you.

[martianmister]

What if......

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the rest of the Draketooths were actually dead and Girard is killed by familicide?!

[RMS Oceanic]

Sometimes the biggest twist is that things are exactly as they appear to be.

[MReav]

Sometimes the biggest twist is that things are exactly as they appear to be.

Especially when they already often are, but there are just enough twists that people keep looking for them.

[FujinAkari]

I wish we had some sort of mega-thread to discuss familicide...

[sgtpimenta]

- If twist will be, it will have to be a surprise, and, honestly, if I were Rich I would have had a lot of fun in leaving misleading clues like that. (Please, understand me, it's not like: "Rich lies to us because he's evil" but much more like "I would have had fun doing the same thing if I were to prepare a coup de theatre like that"

Then, I gotta say I'm glad you are not the Giant. You see, IMHO, there is no much fun in tricking your audience just for the sake of it. It's just cheating.

I don't buy it. There is not sufficient data to corroborate that theory. In the words of a mutual acquaintance:

Those ideas are theoretically possible, if, for example, the cosmos hated us

I have seem a lot of posts defending the idea of a surviving Draketooth runnig around lately. I think this is because we haven't seen the gate yet, and we haven't seen proof of the arcane power of an epic master illusionist. After all, we have seen the other members of the OotScr defending their gates, and they kicked ass.

I believe the Girard is dead as a dodo. But I believe we'll see him soon enough. The OotS has yet a whole dungeon to search. There will be illusions, alright, and there will be a confrontation with a ilusionary Girard Draketooth - maybe a persistent effect, not unlike the one seen here, only a little more kickass.

That's my bet.

[Haldir]

The Draketooths might have something else in the bag, but I think it would be a whole lot cooler than, "We arranged this whole thing, including details that would only make sense if we were trying to trick some audience!"

No, details that make sense if you're trying to trick a group of adventurers into killing themselves in your decoy illusions.

Edit- Also serves as a response to this:

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This is hardly evidence that a grand plan exists. You just wave your hand and say "it's all part of an illusion because it's all part of a plan we don't understand yet."

There are plenty of ways to spring an ambush on a group of people. And there are plenty of ways to lay in wait for an enemy, and attack with surprise, without their being aware you're about to do so. Nobody is saying that there's no advantage to surprise.

What I'm asking is why this specific way? Why make it look as if they're dead, because of a Familicide spell that only one party member knows about? If the illusion is produced by somebody so omniscient that he/it/they know about this spell, surely he/it/they also know that the Order doesn't all know about it, whereas the Order all knows about Xykon and Nale and Tarquin.

Also: for all the reasons you say an illusion of dead people is ideal — can't be killed, the Order would trust everything they say, wouldn't suspect an attack — an illusion of living people would be just as good. Better, in fact, if the goal is to make the Order go away. The Order is most definitely not going to simply pack their bags and say, "Gosh, I guess the Gate isn't defended, we'll move on to the next one."

Your illusion hypothesis requires the illusion to be created by a mastermind with perfect foresight who knows every person, personally, who is about to invade. The illusion has to know that the Order exists; it requires the illusion to know that the Order thinks the Draketooths exist (because Haley guessed there's a clan in the first place — if you're trying to say it's all a big illusion, you have to concede that you have no proof there IS a Draketooth clan). The illusion must know that Durkon prepared Speak With Dead that morning, and would cast it. It would have to know that Vaarsuvius's natural reaction upon seeing the Family Tree would be to flee the room and fall into an oubliette. The illusion has to be so brilliant that it can predict the Order is coming here because they're trying to head off both Xykon and Nale. It has to be able to predict the future, and the behavior of everybody, with perfect precision. And yet you say the illusion is still trying to sneak-attack the Order? Why?

It. Makes. No. Sense.

And all you have to back it up is "it's all part of a grand plan yet to be revealed."

It makes perfect sense, you're just not thinking deceptively enough. If you got to the canyon, there's a 99% chance that you are a threat to the Gate, or whatever knowledge you find in the canyon could potentially represent a threat to the Gate at some later time. A series of decoys designed to trap and eliminate these threats is an entirely reasonable strategy. Many illusions play on the thoughts and feelings of the person they affect. A fear spell is flavored to show the target things they are particularly fearful of, why is it such a stretch that severe emotions like guilt or inquisitiveness won't show up and be able to be reacted to?

Your complaints against the theory make no sense.

[Steward]

No, details that make sense if you're trying to trick a group of adventurers into killing themselves in your decoy illusions.

Now I'm lost. How does the family tree Familicide clue cause the Order to kill themselves? The only person who was even aware of its importance was Vaarsuvius, and she (or any of them, except for Haley) might have wandered into a trap even if they weren't distracted, just because they're exploring the lair. Why would they decide to fake being killed by Familicide rather than, say, by a more well-known threat like Nale or Xykon?

Yes, because making the last 846 strips a complete waste of time as opposed to just the last dozen would be *so much* better...

To be fair, that's kind of like what I was saying earlier. Twists like that, in effect, the same as a writer giving up on a difficult plot line or character moment and retreating to the somewhat safer ground of 'convoluted implausible conspiracy'.

[rgrekejin]

I dunno, seems like you might be overthinking it to me...

[Euodiachloris]

Man, that is just too much of a WMG to actually be real... Nope, it doesn't fly at all.

I mean, if you go there, you'd have to accept the fact that the corpse was telling the truth, but just happened to be a major git in life, and therefore enjoyed yanking chains enough to manage to pull Roy's after death with an ingrained arse joke. Nah, can't see that.

And that V fell into a left-over, still-operative, dead-fall trap triggered solely by kirself, with no external Draketooth involvement (beyond installing the thing) in getting kir there at all. But, there's no way ke would stay down there with major concussion for all this time, at all. After all, CON is one of kir's best attributes... No, this doesn't compute, either.

None of this could be the case, at all. I think we need to go crazier!

[Euodiachloris]

Why would anybody fake the dead like this to delay a group of people who managed to see past the various illusions in such a ham-fisted way?

A much simpler way would be to create a real-ish (real buildings, no purpose but to mislead) fake route to a 'Gate' that would look very real... until you tried to use the thing. Then, the trap would spring.

The invaders waste time, you know where they are: mincemeat happens.

No need for this roundabout way of being too specific to be a good, general defence policy for any band of adventurers, rather than this specific bunch.

[sgtpimenta]

Certainly there are illusions that can react to your mental state, and it's not impossible that the decoy is designed to specifically divide and conquer in any way it can. It's entirely possible that when Belkar looks at that same wall he will see something specifically tailored to him.

(...)

Many illusions play on the thoughts and feelings of the person they affect. A fear spell is flavored to show the target things they are particularly fearful of, why is it such a stretch that severe emotions like guilt or inquisitiveness won't show up and be able to be reacted to?

Your complaints against the theory make no sense.

I wouldn't call them "complaints". I think they are fine arguments. But that's me.

Your theory, however, have no in-comics elements to support it. Everybody sees and interacts with the same stimulli. Even if you believe this everything-is-an-over-elaborated-illusion theory, we've have no reason to believe that each character sees anything different from the other. The only difference is the way Vaarsuvius reacts to what is there for everybody to see.

[Fish]

I don't disagree with the concept of a decoy, Haldir; I question the utility of this specific one.

1. What purpose does the illusion have in confirming Haley's theory of a Draketooth clan? Especially if it's true! If there IS a Draketooth clan, why shouldn't they disprove Haley's theory instead?

2. If the all-knowing illusion can detect thoughts and feelings, it knows the Order is here to save the world. Their greatest fear should be that Xykon got here first. But the illusion wasn't that, was it?

3. Familicide was cast two weeks ago. Why haven't the defenders had time to prepare an ambush? Why do they want to stall the attack? They should be well-prepared by now!

4. If Girard could simply divine which people would, at any point in the future, attempt to attack his Gate, why didn't he destroy Xykon half a century ago?

The answer to these questions is "secret plan." That's an admission that it makes no sense.

The number of new entities being invented — omniscient illusions, regular visits to the Oracle, divinations about who is attacking, master plans, thought-scanners, and other all-powerful inscrutable devices, make William of Ockham wish he'd invented a lawn mower.

[D.KnightSpider]

Kudos on your well-rounded and seasoned arguments. You, sir, have proved the impossible to be possible. I'm sure that Mr. Holmes is just a-turning in his grave right this very second.

Next you'll be telling me that the cake is a lie.

[Haldir]

I don't disagree with the concept of a decoy, Haldir; I question the utility of this specific one.

1. What purpose does the illusion have in confirming Haley's theory of a Draketooth clan? Especially if it's true! If there IS a Draketooth clan, why shouldn't they disprove Haley's theory instead?

2. If the all-knowing illusion can detect thoughts and feelings, it knows the Order is here to save the world. Their greatest fear should be that Xykon got here first. But the illusion wasn't that, was it?

3. Familicide was cast two weeks ago. Why haven't the defenders had time to prepare an ambush? Why do they want to stall the attack? They should be well-prepared by now!

4. If Girard could simply divine which people would, at any point in the future, attempt to attack his Gate, why didn't he destroy Xykon half a century ago?

Honestly, an illusion tailored specifically to isolating and destroying the Arcane Caster first even makes most sense, since spellcasters would represent the largest threat.

The answer to these questions is "secret plan." That's an admission that it makes no sense.

The number of new entities being invented — omniscient illusions, regular visits to the Oracle, divinations about who is attacking, master plans, thought-scanners, and other all-powerful inscrutable devices, make William of Ockham wish he'd invented a lawn mower.

1. Haley's theory on the Draketooth clan has nothing to do with how the Gates are defended or the feasibility of plans doing so.

2. I could see why one might assume there is minimal value to trying to discern motivations with the decoy. The safety and secrecy of the Gate is paramount. Also, there's no ruling out that is isnt' still some sort of test of the Order's true motivations. Let them think they're free to pursue the Gate and observe what they do with said freedom....

3. Baseless assumptions and speculation. Why would they waste time and resources on an ambush when Dad's awesome illusions are more than likely going to take care of it? And they can probably watch the whole time anyway, and strike at the most optimal time.

4. This makes the false assumption that Girard needed some form of pre-information to set up this particular illusion. I've already stated the argument that illusions are often most effective when you let the targets mind build the details, which is well within the power of magic in a D&D based world.

So, no, it's really not that far fetched or require anything other than Epic Illusion magic which we can safely assume that Girard has. Hell, it's probably the smartest and most effective way to defend the Gates.

[sgtpimenta]

Why would they waste time and resources on an ambush when Dad's awesome illusions are more than likely going to take care of it? And they can probably watch the whole time anyway, and strike at the most optimal time.

Why would they assume such a thing? Let me remind you that the Draketooth clan knew about the other gates. They were guarded by epic spellcasters too, and they were destroyed. The Draketeeth had to be incredbly arrogant/stupid/lazy to think that one single layer of prottection - no matter how epic and spetacular - would be enough to stop whoever beat Lirian, Dorukan and Soon.

Even if we are to blindly accept that premise, however, answer that: if that's all a illusion designed to fool those who could threat the Gates, WHY keep the readers unaware of these? Why fool the reader too?

The number of new entities being invented — omniscient illusions, regular visits to the Oracle, divinations about who is attacking, master plans, thought-scanners, and other all-powerful inscrutable devices, make William of Ockham wish he'd invented a lawn mower.

Amen to that, brother!

[rgrekejin]

So, no, it's really not that far fetched or require anything other than Epic Illusion magic which we can safely assume that Girard has. Hell, it's probably the smartest and most effective way to defend the Gates.

Actually, yes, it is incredibly far fetched for two reasons, the first of which is plot-related. Having everything be a completely real, mind-reading, omniscient illusion in no way propels the story forward. It short-circuits the character growth we've seen out of V. And it totally ignores Penelope's death, although if you're determined to handwave away contradictory evidence, I suppose that this is easy enough to dismiss too. It makes no NARRATIVE sense for this to just be a big fake out. Please, do not appeal to some shadowy secret plan, as what is technically possible in-universe has no bearing on narrative structure. The only thing making everything an illusion would accomplish is irking a lot of readers who would justifiably feel cheated.

And secondly, no, trapping everyone who attempts to visit his gate in The Matrix is really not within the scope of Epic Magic, at least not the type we've seen so far. We've seen the following epic spells: Epic Teleport, Superb Dispelling, Cloister, and Familicide. Incredibly powerful spells, every one, but none as intricate or as powerful as the sort of thing you're suggesting. Even Familicide kind of pales in comparison to magically creating The Matrix.

And whats more, it's clearly not the best way to defend a gate. An omniscient, perfectly real, mind-reading illusion spell that, once you're within its grasp, just kind of putzes around with you rather than try and kill you? Even if Girard were capable of casting such a spell, what's the point? It's inefficient. Yes, I suppose it technically could be part of some giant, super-complex Grand Scheme, but so what if it is? Maybe the entire comic has been the fever-dreams of someone trapped inside Girard's Perfect Illusion (TM). At this point, both events are equally likely. And both are about equally well supported by in-comic evidence (which is to say, not at all).

[Fish]

1. Haley's theory on the Draketooth clan has nothing to do with how the Gates are defended or the feasibility of plans doing so.

You're right — it doesn't. So if you believe this is a big magical omniscient holodeck, WHY does the illusion choose to confirm her theory? If the Draketooths exist, we know that they are fanatically paranoid and take every step to hide themselves. The very fact the illusion depicts any Draketooths at all suggests they don't exist. So who put this illusion there if there's no clan? And why? Oh, right, "big secret plan."

2. I could see why one might assume there is minimal value to trying to discern motivations with the decoy. The safety and secrecy of the Gate is paramount.

The safety and the secrecy of the guardians is paramount too, but you hand-wave that away by saying "it's not related to defense." but now in addition to inventing an omniscient illusion, you've invented a hypothetical reason for it to disregard motivation in the further basis of some test we've no evidence for. How much else must you invent for your theory?

3. Baseless assumptions and speculation. Why would they waste time and resources on an ambush when Dad's awesome illusions are more than likely going to take care of it?

Hey, you can invent an omniscient illusion and a master secret plan. I don't get to invent spells that already exist? The idea of divination may not by your theory, but it is one of many the pro-illusion camp uses to argue that the defenders tailored this "illusion" for the Order.

As far as baseless speculation goes, the Oracle exists — we've no proof that omniscient mind-reading illusions exist.

So, no, it's really not that far fetched or require anything other than Epic Illusion magic which we can safely assume that Girard has.

You assume omniscience on the part of the enemy? Right, because that's the simplest solution. Where's that lawn mower?

[JennTora]

Attention big illusion conspiracy theorists.

Please reread this strip.

You will notice that the allegedly illusionary weird gate monitoring device shows girard's gate as still being there... now call me crazy, but if this illusion theory was true, wouldn't it make sense to lead those who might be trying to attack the gate to believe that it was no longer there. Why not have the dead draketeeth there and then let your enemy stumble on that and say "oh well... derp guess somebody tried to take it and screwed up?"

God kills a kitten!

[Sith_Happens]

*sniff* Does anyone smell mummified thread, or is it just me?

[JennTora]

*sniff* Does anyone smell mummified thread, or is it just me?

Huh... Sorry, I'm not used to forums where threads still on the front page can be dead for six months...

[Mike Havran]

Huh... Sorry, I'm not used to forums where threads still on the front page can be dead for six months...

I am certain this particular thread wasn't on the front page until you dug it up ... there was a link to it in another discussion.

[kpenguin]

The Modguin: I'm fairly certain it wasn't either. Closed