Pathfinder Grab Bag Competition Chat Thread

[Tanuki Tales]

I actually have a question for future competitions. What timezome is the posting deadline in? Like I'm in UTC-6

Eastern Standard Time aka UTC-5 (-4 for Daylight saving's).

[Midwoka]

Bluh... I'm not going to be able to do a last-minute entry, I don't think. I still like the concept for my Yulewraith (the ghost of someone who isn't dead yet, come back in time to make them reform), but I can't get the mechanics for it anywhere near satisfactory :S

I'm still hoping to get something done for next month, though.

[4th number]

When's the next one start?

[Tanuki Tales]

When's the next one start?

Already did, I just haven't updated the first post or my sig. Check the first two or three pages of this subforum.

[Razanir]

Are any of the following allowed:
1) Two unique monsters. One focuses on upholding oaths; one focuses on breaking them
2) Two intelligent magic swords (possibly statted as constructs). Same focus
3) The Dead Men of Dunharrow (also known as the oathbreakers) statted up as a race or monster

[Tanuki Tales]

Are any of the following allowed:

Here is my verdict on the matter.

1) Two unique monsters. One focuses on upholding oaths; one focuses on breaking them

If the creatures are directly tied to one another, such as being twins or different aspects of one entity or something similar, I will allow it because they're unique, singular entities.

2) Two intelligent magic swords (possibly statted as constructs). Same focus

Since items isn't a valid entry type, it'd have to be statted up as a monster. Also, it'd have to be a single item/creature that shifts to reflect one or the other depending on environmental stimuli.

3) The Dead Men of Dunharrow (also known as the oathbreakers) statted up as a race or monster

How are they different from a standard Ghost?

[Tanuki Tales]

Alright, the reference tables for all the past entries have been updated. Please let me know if you guys see any broken/wrong links or anything else that is incorrect with the "archives".

I also had an idea for a contest theme for some time down the road that I'd like to run past you guys:

The name of the contest would be "Through a Mirror Darkly" and the theme would be to select a previous entry to the contest and create what is essentially its polar opposite.

For example, you could take the Spider-Blood Assassin and make a Healing/Buffing class that uses butterfly imagery/symbolism.

Edit:

And we're at Post 666 with this one.

[Milo v3]

Alright, the reference tables for all the past entries have been updated. Please let me know if you guys see any broken/wrong links or anything else that is incorrect with the "archives".

I also had an idea for a contest theme for some time down the road that I'd like to run past you guys:

The name of the contest would be "Through a Mirror Darkly" and the theme would be to select a previous entry to the contest and create what is essentially its polar opposite.

For example, you could take the Spider-Blood Assassin and make a Healing/Buffing class that uses butterfly imagery/symbolism.

Edit:

And we're at Post 666 with this one.

Through a Mirror Darkly sounds good, though I have no idea which I would pick. And I think you meant reply 666.

[Tanuki Tales]

Through a Mirror Darkly sounds good, though I have no idea which I would pick.

It could be next contest or it could be 50 from now...you'll never know till it's here.

And I think you meant reply 666.

Yes, that.

[Milo v3]

It could be next contest or it could be 50 from now...you'll never know till it's here.

God I'd be 21 by the 61th contest.
That'll be a lot of options.

Also, my entry for this month is based on Contractors from an anime called Darker Than Black, and this will basically be my campaigns replacement for the warlock.

[4th number]

God I'd be 21 by the 61th contest.
That'll be a lot of options.

As in, you'll have to option to drink instead of homebrew?

[Kane0]

Also, my entry for this month is based on Contractors from an anime called Darker Than Black, and this will basically be my campaigns replacement for the warlock.

Sounds great! I love me my warlocks.

I think I'll change my entry into a 5 or 10 level prestige class, it's too unfocused in my head and in fluff to be a base class.

[4th number]

I'm making the Solar-sworn PrC. It'll be fun-- an arcane caster who takes levels in it will start gaining divine spells instead of their normal progression. I'll be asking for advice when the mechanics are more developed. I'll need it, too, 'cuz I ain't messed with full casters before, and that way lies danger.

[4th number]

Could I get opinions on the core spellcasting mechanic and oath? Everything else in this class will be secondary, so I want to get this as good as I can.

Here's my entry, the solarsworn.

[Kane0]

I really like the casting mechanic you have, seems like a really neat idea. Did you have anything in mind for fixed list casters? Changing to the cleric list seems ok, unless i'm missing something.

Your oath sounds a little extreme. Being hunted down or losing all spellcasting power form one evil act (extremity of the act is irrelevant, i presume?) is a major blow. Perhaps just the standard lose all class abilities excluding casting?

I have the Axiopact fleshed into its first draft for review too.

Edit:
Those Solar Aspect Abilities seem really powerful too. Do they have limited usage or some other catch? And seeing as you can be aligned with any Powerful Good Outsider could there be alternative Aspects for other Angels, Archons, Azata, etc?

[4th number]

I really like the casting mechanic you have, seems like a really neat idea. Did you have anything in mind for fixed list casters? Changing to the cleric list seems ok, unless i'm missing something.

Your oath sounds a little extreme. Being hunted down or losing all spellcasting power form one evil act (extremity of the act is irrelevant, i presume?) is a major blow. Perhaps just the standard lose all class abilities excluding casting?

I have the Axiopact fleshed into its first draft for review too.

It's a significant power-up for a fixed-list caster (especially spontaneous) to suddenly be able to access a massive list like that, so I'm trying to find a way to lock it down a bit.

I might amend it to "seriously evil act," but it's ultimately the Solar's call. I could also remove the don't-be-evil clause and offer a set of more specific sample oaths that could be taken.

I definitely want to yank out spellcasting as a punishment, though. Maybe just the solarsworn casting, leaving them with their arcane stuff from before.

I'll check out the Axiopact and give you a rundown when I can.

[Kane0]

It's a significant power-up for a fixed-list caster (especially spontaneous) to suddenly be able to access a massive list like that, so I'm trying to find a way to lock it down a bit.

I might amend it to "seriously evil act," but it's ultimately the Solar's call. I could also remove the don't-be-evil clause and offer a set of more specific sample oaths that could be taken.

I definitely want to yank out spellcasting as a punishment, though. Maybe just the solarsworn casting, leaving them with their arcane stuff from before.

I'll check out the Axiopact and give you a rundown when I can.

In that case, maybe instead of choosing arcane spells on level up as they normally would that then become divine, they choose divine spells or get the choice? That way they don't get more spells than normal, but can still get the divine spells.

Sounds fair. That gives it a little more freedom when being implemented by the DM. Maybe the player must make his own oath to present to the Solar (DM)?

Just take away the aspects and give emnity/unpleasantness form the outsiders until atoned, seems alright. They can still cast, and they might have to just to keep their head above water if they dont want to atone.

Cheers.

[4th number]

Let's talk Axiopact. I dig the Inevitable flavor, but Inevitables always seemed to me to be a way to reign in PCs. Is this PrC aimed for PC use?

If it is, it seems pretty weak mechanically. No spellcasting for casters, no full BaB for beatsticks, only one good save. After 5 levels of it (at a minimum of CL 10, right?), you get some neat perception abilities, non-scaling DR and SR, 2d6 bonus damage, a situational save boost, and the summoning capstone. I like Truespeech and Vigilance, but they're basically flavor abilities. Electricity resistance is fine, but I feel like I'd have to go out of my way as a DM to find enemies that would make it useful.

I think it needs something that really gives new options to a player. Maybe a transition to part-construct, or a Favored Enemy-type bonus to something you're hunting. Someone hearing that an Axiopact is after them should be scared ****less.

SLAs are good, too-- dispel magic, mark of justice, hold person, that kind of thing.

It should probably get True Seeing at some point, permanent or otherwise.

EDIT: It occurs to me that an Axiopact could make an awesome archer. Once they're unleashing a decent handful of arrows per round, that 2d6 gets scary.

[Kane0]

When the initial idea struck me I was thinking 3rd ed Inevitables, which are more or less the same except for their focus on minimizing/punishing the misuse (chaotic use) of magic and lack of creators leading to their own society. Anyway, most inevitables are intelligent as well as lawful, so while they can be a royal pain in the ass (like a lawful stupid paladin) they are also capable of reason and can consider circumstances, though that rarely means you get off scott free.

Mechanically speaking, it isn't meant to be a powerhouse, especially at only 5 levels. I still cant figure out if i want it to have 4 skills per level or full BAB, but everything else seems pretty decent for a 5 level dip in a class that is easy to get into (not even any feat tax). It isn't supposed to excel at one kind of thing, it is supposed to appeal to a small extent to a number of (admittedly non-magic) classes and builds, and offers a range of abilities that are cool but not gamebreaking (like flight and true seeing can be).
Although you are right in that it does not offer much that is new and interesting, even if it is packed full of stuff.

When i was thinking a full base class or 10-level prestige class, i was seriously considering the capstone being gaining the inevitable subtype, but it wasnt unique or focused enough to have that many levels.

I've always hated true seeing, especially the permanent variety. It's like an off switch for all illusions in the game. I've got a houserule that the regular version only works on effects of spell level 6 or lower, and there is a 9th level version that works on everything.

Yeah, archers would like the extra 2d6. And being electrical damage, it is somewhat rarer a resistance to come across. Anybody with a weapon would like it, and the resistance is more for the flavor and likeness to the inevitables they so constantly work with.

[Tanuki Tales]

What a pleasant surprise to open the thread to; seeing the contestants PEACHing one another.

Well, here's my run down on the Axiopact!

I don't see any grammatical issue from my first read through, so let's move on!

• The concept for this class is neat, I really do like the idea of it, but the execution could really be better.
• Inevitables aren't constructs any longer in Pathfinder, they're outsiders with construct traits.
• Why does a class with a full BaB progression have only a d8 HD and doesn't give full BaB in return?
• This is just a personal opinion of mine, but I always feel like 2+Int mod skills is just too little per level for any class to get.
• The Code of Conduct should probably read "Willingly performing a Chaotic act". The Paladin code makes the same caveat, so I would assume as much from other codes.
• Why is the Darkvision range so large?
• Stem the Tide is...kind of underwhelming. They get a limited equivalent of a level 2 class feature, the equivalent of a feat, something that has very limited applications outside certain games and piddling DR for a 5 level class investment and binding themselves to a higher power for all time.
• Why do all Axiopacts get Electric Affinity? That's a trait exclusive to Zelekhuts and they don't even get Electricity resistance.
• Vigilance is to be expected, but where do you get the 4 hours from?
• Implacable is....pretty niche.
• Spell Resistance is just too small in the end. It's alright for when it's gained at its earliest (where PCs with the standard 11+ would only have 21), but it's outdone 5 levels later.
• Why does Call the Inevitable call only Zelekhuts?
• Now that I think about it...why is this class sworn to Inevitables and not their creators and rulers, the Axiomites?

And that's all for now!

[Morph Bark]

Hm, y'know, I actually am thinking of participating in this thing this once this time. I got some ideas that might turn out well and interesting.

In the meantime, there's something else you might like to check out...



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[Kane0]

Cheers for the Input Troll Bräu!

[*]Why does a class with a full BaB progression have only a d8 HD and doesn't give full BaB in return?[*]This is just a personal opinion of mine, but I always feel like 2+Int mod skills is just too little per level for any class to get.

I want to do either full BAB or 4+Int skills, but can't decide on which.

[*]The Code of Conduct should probably read "Willingly performing a Chaotic act". The Paladin code makes the same caveat, so I would assume as much from other codes.

Done.

[*]Why is the Darkvision range so large?

Changed to default 60', I had 120' as the default in my mind for some reason.

[*]Stem the Tide is...kind of underwhelming. They get a limited equivalent of a level 2 class feature, the equivalent of a feat, something that has very limited applications outside certain games and piddling DR for a 5 level class investment and binding themselves to a higher power for all time.

Thinking of making them at will, and maybe adding a few more SLAs. Truespeech is really just permanent nonmagical Tongues going by it's PF description. Why do you consider the DR low though?

[*]Why do all Axiopacts get Electric Affinity? That's a trait exclusive to Zelekhuts and they don't even get Electricity resistance.

Not true, all Inevitables bar Kolyaruts have some form of electrical attack, though none have the resistance.

[*]Vigilance is to be expected, but where do you get the 4 hours from?

Just off the top of my head, to counter the Axiopact standing watch all night every night (or going out every night) and still getting full benefits of rest.

[*]Implacable is....pretty niche.

Yep, as intended. Compliments evasion well too.

[*]Spell Resistance is just too small in the end. It's alright for when it's gained at its earliest (where PCs with the standard 11+ would only have 21), but it's outdone 5 levels later.

Thinking of changing this to fast healing 1 or something. 5 Levels isn't enough to make a nice SR scale

[*]Why does Call the Inevitable call only Zelekhuts?

Changed to Planar Binding, same spell level.

[*]Now that I think about it...why is this class sworn to Inevitables and not their creators and rulers, the Axiomites? [/list]

Good question. I picked Inevitables over Axiomites for a few reasons:
- Axiomites created the Inevitables to defend them against chaos, meaning the Inevitables are taking the active role against chaos and lawbreaking.
- The Axiomites are more about the learning and understanding of law than the implementation of it and retribution for its breaking.
- Axiomites are less powerful and varied than Inevitables and arguably do not control them any more, only rule over them. The only real reliance the Inevitables have on the Axiomites is their creation and guidance, both of which would not be hard to figure out on their own.
- Inevitables could still function with the loss of the Axiomites, but the opposite is much less likely.
- If an Axiopact wanted to work with/for Axiomites, it wouldnt be that hard even without changing the class. Just look at it as working your way up the ladder.

On the point of the overall power level, I don't want to be a victim of power creep here. PF (and D&D in general) doesn't have many 5 level classes, so they are sort of untested territory. As well as that, many classes only get one class ability per level, where the Axiopact gets 2 at every level. Some like the Rogue, Assassin and Shadowdancer get 2, but not at every level. So for a 5 level investment as opposed to a 10 level for another prestige class an Axiopact could get a slightly smaller return for the chance at 5 levels in something else. In the long run the Axiopact isn't the light at the end of the tunnel, it functions as a nice, flavorful detour on the path to power.

Edit: That Powerthirst reference made me lol Morph. I am checking out the link now

[Tanuki Tales]

Cheers for the Input Troll Bräu!

It's practically the only thing I do around this place and someone has to do it.

I want to do either full BAB or 4+Int skills, but can't decide on which.

Why not both?

Thinking of making them at will, and maybe adding a few more SLAs. Truespeech is really just permanent nonmagical Tongues going by it's PF description. Why do you consider the DR low though?

But being able to speak all languages really amounts to nothing in the end. Either your DM is going to handwave it at some point because it's bogging down the game or it's important enough that you already have a way around it before entering this class.

As for the DR, let me illustrate:

Fire Giants are a very common enemy for that CR, from my experience and to my knowledge, so we'll use that guy for the example.

Assuming the Fire Giant only lands 1 attack a round, he does an average of 25 damage a round. If he gets off his full routine, that's 75 a round. All of this excluding high rolls, crit hits or him using the Power Attack feat his stat block gives him.

So your capstonish DR is blocking only ~7-20% of the physical damage coming your way without accounting for crit hits, power attacking or anything else.

Not true, all Inevitables bar Kolyaruts have some form of electrical attack, though none have the resistance.

I didn't really consider Lhaksharut, but I don't know how I forgot Arbiters (or even Maruts for that matter *facepalm*).

Just off the top of my head, to counter the Axiopact standing watch all night every night (or going out every night) and still getting full benefits of rest.

I meant the 4 hours for regaining hit points. I don't remember that in the rules; I thought it was 8 hours.

Yep, as intended. Compliments evasion well too.

Did you change it? I don't remember it being that when I read it.

Thinking of changing this to fast healing 1 or something. 5 Levels isn't enough to make a nice SR scale

Well, you don't need to make it scale. Fast Healing or some weakened Regen would be neat too.

- Axiomites are less powerful and varied than Inevitables and arguably do not control them any more, only rule over them. The only real reliance the Inevitables have on the Axiomites is their creation and guidance, both of which would not be hard to figure out on their own.

To be honest, I personally viewed their stat block as being the equivilant of a base race commoner.

In the long run the Axiopact isn't the light at the end of the tunnel, it functions as a nice, flavorful detour on the path to power.

If memory serves, isn't that exactly what Paizo didn't want Prestige Classes (and Base classes for that matter) being? I agree with the mindset that taking a prestige class shouldn't be an extended dip to polish your build but something that is a serious change to your character as a being.

As for power creep, don't worry too much about it. I or one of those other folks will let you know if you give out too much or too powerful stuff. You need to worry more about making your class something worthwhile to take.

[Tanuki Tales]

Alright, moving on to the Solarsworn, but I'll just give some comments for now since it's not finished.

• 3rd level casting would be the level you'd want if you plan for this to be a normal prestige class.
• What I suggest to fix your spellcasting problem is to allow them to trade out their spells every time they get new spells. The trade off is that you cut down how much this class progresses spellcasting. I personally feel like a prestige class shouldn't give a lot of spellcasting progression, even those meant for casters. It completely eliminates opportunity costs and makes taking levels in the class a complete no brainer (why take levels in Wizard when you get the same progression for your spells but all these cools bells and whistles too?).
• I'd like to see some more explanation on the Solar Aspect options.

While I'm here, I want to talk about next month's theme. I've come up with four so far and I'd like input on which ones you guys like:

• Spell it Out for Us - Your entry is themed around one spell of your choice.
• Homebrew, I Choose You! - In honor of the announcement of X and Y your entry is themed around one of the current 652 Pokemon of your choice.
• Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger - This contest would be base class only; you select one of the existing base classes and make an entry based on it.
• Passion Unbound - Your entry is themed around an emotion of choice.

[Razanir]

• Passion Unbound - Your entry is themed around an emotion of choice.

I pick this one. Oh, and expect my entry for this contest over the weekend

[Milo v3]

While "Homebrew, I Choose You!" does call out the Fanboy in me. I think "Spell it Out for Us" would be best.

[Morph Bark]

...well, I got something lying around for a class that'd fit perfectly with "Homebrew, I Choose You!" so clearly I gotta vote for that.

[Kane0]

My vote goes to "Spell it out for us"

Taking your critique into consideration as i post, ill probably post again with the changes made.

[Midwoka]

Spell It Out doesn't sound too bad, but I'd much prefer Homebrew, I Choose You!

[Kane0]

Axiopact Changes
- d10 HD
- 4 Skills per level
- Full BAB
- Fast healing 1 replaces SR

Also, yes i think I did change the entry for Implacable to specify conditions that deny you taking actions.

If memory serves, isn't that exactly what Paizo didn't want Prestige Classes (and Base classes for that matter) being? I agree with the mindset that taking a prestige class shouldn't be an extended dip to polish your build but something that is a serious change to your character as a being.

Most likely. I can respect that point of view, which explains why they have no 5 level prestige classes. I read through a thread discussing this dilemma on some other forums, but i cant find it now. I'll see if I can dig it up. Quite a good read.