Pathfinder Grab Bag Competition Chat Thread

[gr8artist]

Just posted an entry for the competition: the Gallows Ghost, utilizing one of my favorite spells, Limp Lash.
Also, I still need to stat out an example creature for the template.
Feedback would be appreciated, and I'll try to get around to looking over everyone else's stuff later.

Votes for the next theme...
The Song of My People
A Symbol of the Past
Mutagenic Madness
The Third Law
The Call of a Hero

[DawnbringerSO]

My votes:

The Third Law
The Call of a Hero
Airborne Anomalies
Mutagenic Madness
Gamer's Gambit

[Razanir]

Just posted an entry for the competition: the Gallows Ghost, utilizing one of my favorite spells, Limp Lash.
Also, I still need to stat out an example creature for the template.
Feedback would be appreciated, and I'll try to get around to looking over everyone else's stuff later.

Defensive abilities: I assume you mean any that relied on a corporeal form no longer work.

Type and size: Why does it shrink one category?

Overall, though, it's a neat concept. You don't have to, but it might be interesting to see a fiery greater version. I just saw Ghost Rider yesterday

[Tanuki Tales]

{table=head]Working Name|Theme|Votes

The Song of My People|Music |3
When Two Become One|Biological Symbiosis (think symbionts)|2
A Symbol of the Past|Runes, Sigils, and More|3
The Call of a Hero|Dragons|3
The Third Law|Science and Technology|6
Gamer's Gambit|Video games|3
Urban Legends|Cryptozoology and Urban Legends|1
Homebrew Homebrews|Crafting|3
Airborne Anomalies|Air, Flying and the Sky|2
Mutagenic Madness|Evolution and Mutation|4[/table]

Votes tallied to here.


Edit:


Sam, do you mind if I do your run down last? Your entry is just massive, so I'd like to make sure that I get some words out for everyone else before devoting my time to your magnum opus this month.


@gr8 and everyone: I forgot to tell Sam this last month, so I'm making sure I remind everyone about it this month:

Templates may be submitted as entries but will be judged based upon the example creature (which must be a previously statted NPC creature from the PSRD). A pre-application and post-application version of the creature must be included for comparison (a link to the NPC on the PSRD will suffice for pre-application).

[Razanir]

My entry is mostly complete now. I present the Bombardier.

I took Tanta's idea from the OP and ran with it

This could take the form of such things like a base class that specializes in Magic Missile

Some explanations:
*My first design choice was to use psionics. Because it focuses on augmenting the spell, I decided to switch over to power points because it's a better mechanic for that.
*Charismatic Boost was made into a pick and choose feature because I had a lot of ideas of what they could add Charisma to, but didn't know which ones to use or in what order. So I decided to let them pick
*Introspection was my only idea for an out of combat feature. I was thinking of what to add, and came up with the idea of discovering things they didn't know they knew.
*Uncanny Dodge and Evasion were because this is a very dexterous class.
*The progression for damage dice is taken directly from the Monk.
*The progression for pp/day is taken directly from the psion
*Death Missile was adapted as a capstone from the Arcane Archer's Death Arrow

Mostly though, I think it's done except for tweaks and coming up with something to fill those last few dead levels.

[Elricaltovilla]

I've updated the Scorching Mage PrC to fix some grammatical/formatting errors and cut a couple CL progressions out. Hopefully the metamagic abuse will make up for it.

[Razanir]

Dead levels in the Bombardier are now almost a thing of the past!

Added the ability to align arrows and treat them as special materials.

They gain resistance to force damage and eventually immunity to force damage.

Finally, while still capable of being injured by it, casters now have to make a ranged touch attack to hit with magic missile

[DawnbringerSO]

Dead levels in the Bombardier are now almost a thing of the past!

Added the ability to align arrows and treat them as special materials.

They gain resistance to force damage and eventually immunity to force damage.

Finally, while still capable of being injured by it, casters now have to make a ranged touch attack to hit with magic missile

I don't mean all my posts to be criticisms lol, but what you've got is no longer magic missile.

The whole point of magic missile is to be a garunteed hit.

[Razanir]

I don't mean all my posts to be criticisms lol, but what you've got is no longer magic missile.

The whole point of magic missile is to be a garunteed hit.

Not sure what you mean. Please select and read the appropriate rebuttal:
*magic missile is a spell. Psionics are better for adding assorted augments. Especially when you only have one spell/power
*All the arrow effects. I wanted to give him more than just the one spell, so I let him augment arrows as well as magic missiles
*Casters have to roll. Perhaps I could have been more clear in this thread. That's only against the Bombardier. They know the spell so well that it's no longer an auto-hit against them. It's like rogues being immune to sneak attack

Oh, and I've decided to switch his reflex abilities over to fortitude. I know there's a class feature in the 3.5 splatbooks that's Evasion but for Fortitude, but its name surpasses me and I don't actually have copies of the splatbooks. Could someone provide its name if you know it?

[DawnbringerSO]

Not sure what you mean. Please select and read the appropriate rebuttal:

*Casters have to roll. Perhaps I could have been more clear in this thread. That's only against the Bombardier. They know the spell so well that it's no longer an auto-hit against them. It's like rogues being immune to sneak attack

Oh, and I've decided to switch his reflex abilities over to fortitude. I know there's a class feature in the 3.5 splatbooks that's Evasion but for Fortitude, but its name surpasses me and I don't actually have copies of the splatbooks. Could someone provide its name if you know it?

That's the one. It sounded in the thread as if you were making magic missile cast by the caster require an attack roll.

And it's called Mettle I think.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

My Votes!
Urban Legends
When Two Become One
The Call of a Hero
Gamers Gambit
Homebrew Homebrews

I have a reeeeeeally interesting idea for Urban Legends involving Monsters in the Closet and Teddy Bears. Just saying.

[Tanuki Tales]

{table=head]Working Name|Theme|Votes

The Song of My People|Music |3
When Two Become One|Biological Symbiosis (think symbionts)|3
A Symbol of the Past|Runes, Sigils, and More|3
The Call of a Hero|Dragons|4
The Third Law|Science and Technology|6
Gamer's Gambit|Video games|4
Urban Legends|Cryptozoology and Urban Legends|2
Homebrew Homebrews|Crafting|4
Airborne Anomalies|Air, Flying and the Sky|2
Mutagenic Madness|Evolution and Mutation|4[/table]

Votes tallied to here.

[SamBurke]

I already fixed the typo in Channeled. My main questions now:
-Do you think I have enough options so far?
-If I add a few out of combat features, would that potentially be enough?
-Any ideas for out of combat?
-Any ideas for a capstone?
-Do you think it would be better as a dodge bonus instead of a deflection bonus?

-Options. You should make sure to have as many as possible: that's Pathfinder's HALLMARK. Every class has a crapton of options dropped on them from every angle. Rangers get both spells and their styles, plus favored enemy. Rogues get talents every other level, and Barbarians get their Rage Talents every other level. Not to mention Archetypes, of course.
-You should have a few. The classic example is this: can a character participate in the following three encounters: 1. A large, CR+2 Boss attacks. (Pure Combat) 2. A city/town is under attack by a large group at once (Battlefield Control, Buff, Debuff) 3. You have to parley with the warlord of a nearby kingdom (Utility, Social). If your character can at least contribute to all three meaningfully, then it's around Tier 3. Theoretically.

As to how to do it, I'd look at the class, and figure out in about a sentence what the main "idea" of it is, and then figure out how to use that idea without blowing stuff up. Perhaps a healing Magic Missile? Maybe a swarm of Missiles hovers about your head, and can be used to obscure vision (Stealth), or lift you/target up (BC/Utility/Flight), or light the way, or work their way through cracks, or lead you in the direction of your stated target, or spell out a message, etc, etc, etc.
-OOC.
-Capstone. Perhaps being able to cast Magic Missile un-augmented at will?
-One cool augment would be making it faster, so its a barrage. Or making it hit a massive area, sort of like a rain of hail, ending up more like a Meteor Shower spell?
-Deflection makes the most sense to me, because MM is a force effect.

Sam, do you mind if I do your run down last? Your entry is just massive, so I'd like to make sure that I get some words out for everyone else before devoting my time to your magnum opus this month.

No problem. It took me two weeks of three-four hours a day to get that thing from the concept of "really, really, really, flexible casting" to "this thing more or less works" on paper. So I don't mind at all.


@Voting: I'm really sad more people aren't going for the Two Become One thing... It's a great idea.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I know! I really like it too! Maybe next time around. Haha. My Dragon-Llama will happen some day! Or perhaps my Wombat / Turresque - DOOMBAT.

[SamBurke]

I know! I really like it too! Maybe next time around. Haha. My Dragon-Llama will happen some day! Or perhaps my Wombat / Turresque - DOOMBAT.

I did my part, and I voted for it. I was just asking for others to do the same!

[Tanuki Tales]

Voting is open for about 9 or 10 more hours. The votes could still swing in almost any direction before the second draft.

[Razanir]

-Options. You should make sure to have as many as possible: that's Pathfinder's HALLMARK. Every class has a crapton of options dropped on them from every angle. Rangers get both spells and their styles, plus favored enemy. Rogues get talents every other level, and Barbarians get their Rage Talents every other level. Not to mention Archetypes, of course.
-You should have a few. The classic example is this: can a character participate in the following three encounters: 1. A large, CR+2 Boss attacks. (Pure Combat) 2. A city/town is under attack by a large group at once (Battlefield Control, Buff, Debuff) 3. You have to parley with the warlord of a nearby kingdom (Utility, Social). If your character can at least contribute to all three meaningfully, then it's around Tier 3. Theoretically.

As to how to do it, I'd look at the class, and figure out in about a sentence what the main "idea" of it is, and then figure out how to use that idea without blowing stuff up. Perhaps a healing Magic Missile? Maybe a swarm of Missiles hovers about your head, and can be used to obscure vision (Stealth), or lift you/target up (BC/Utility/Flight), or light the way, or work their way through cracks, or lead you in the direction of your stated target, or spell out a message, etc, etc, etc.
-OOC.
-Capstone. Perhaps being able to cast Magic Missile un-augmented at will?
-One cool augment would be making it faster, so its a barrage. Or making it hit a massive area, sort of like a rain of hail, ending up more like a Meteor Shower spell?
-Deflection makes the most sense to me, because MM is a force effect.

Options: Sounds like it'll be add more options as I think of them and bump up the frequency if I get enough. That's the entire reason augments are 1/3 and boosts are 1/5. Also, archetypes are on my to-do list, but below homework and filling the last few dead levels

Versatility:
Combat– You can be very blasty if you want
Mass combat– Well I have hadokens... I should add debuffs
OOC– Introspection. At first I was iffy about it, but now I like the added character depth. You look into yourself enough that you discover you know things you didn't know you knew

Capstone:
YES. I'm stealing that idea. Unaugmented now costs 0 pp

Overall:
Once I get the worst of my homework out of the way, I'll probably revamp it with more utility powers

[SamBurke]

Uh... Well. I had a MASSIVE write-up about the Scorching Mage, but my browser refreshed itself, and said, "You can't back up and get all that work."

So I'll sum it up: At level 13, having finished the SM PrC, you can deal 336 damage as a Standard Action. (Maximize the spell, with Spell Perfection. Then use Elemental Spell for free to change it to Acid). That's 14 Rays (3 from the spell, +4 from the class, then with Leaping Ray doubles them), each of which penetrates spell resistance, has very few Immunities or Resistances (being changed to Acid), and can be further upgraded with Ignite Slot.

It is a cool class, and you balance the line between funny and serious well. But the damage is a bit much, perhaps... Though it is balanced a little by loss of other options.

[SamBurke]

ADDED: Two new Runes to the Deepcaster, Image and Give Form, which may be two of my absolute favorites thus far, not counting Living. In addition, I fixed some minor errors.

Alright! On to the next attempt to critique, and hopefully, less failing this time!

DawnbringerSO's Dimensional Dervish!
A PrC I have always wanted to see, and take. Just the idea of dashing through reality at high speeds is awesome.

Chassis and Overall:
It would be nice to see some more fluff, especially for such a cool class with great crunch. A picture is also really important, though it just might be visually-based me.

The requirements seem to be easy, but, then again, they make sense: the whole point of the class is to be able to dance around, so no need to put in feat taxes for all the rest of it. Still, it is rather high for a Monk to enter (can't make it in until 13th level... ), but I guess that's how it works.

Good HD and BAB, which makes sense for a martial-themed class... But I'm wondering what Base Class you were looking at to step into this PrC? Magus? They only get this at level 10. Though, I guess it could work as a late-game class. It does have spell casting, so, honestly, if I was going with a Dimensional Magus, this is almost an auto-yes... Does cut into some of the other features (arcane pool et all), but I think it's worth it for the idea.

I do note that under Spells Per Day, you copy/pasted from Arcane Archer, and neglected to remove it once. That's an easy fix though.

Saves all make sense. On to the class itself!

Class Abilities:
FEATS: This class gives five feats, which are in the Dimensional X Chain I've had my eye on for a looooooooong time. It makes sense to do so, but I'm wondering: Do you have to qualify for it? Or is this one of those, "Gain even if you don't qualify" things, as with Monk and Ranger path abilities? I'd prefer the latter, but there does need to be clarity.

DIMENSION DOOR: Ah. This is good. Getting to use this spell more often is pretty much a must-have for the class, but it offers a lot of uses for just one spell.

DIMENSIONAL GRAB: This is the only unique, new, ability on the list, but it seems interesting. My only question is: why would you *want* to take someone with you on teleports? Does it debuff them? Can you use your attacks when teleporting (as per Dimensional Dervish) on them "easier" or such?

Final Thoughts:
If I wanted to make a Magus who dashed through existence really, really, fast, focusing on a TWF-style multi-attack idea, I think I would take this. The good HD and the BAB make it great for a martial idea, and the spellcasting makes up for the loss of normal class features.

It's a little weak on new ideas and original content, but it's a strong, strong, PrC overall. Honestly, I wish it was core. My one major suggestion would be to maybe add some optimization or chooseability. Like I explain to everyone I ever talk to about Pathfinder, the game and the system is about having a crapton of choices, so you can get your feel juuuuuuuuust right.

[Elricaltovilla]

Uh... Well. I had a MASSIVE write-up about the Scorching Mage, but my browser refreshed itself, and said, "You can't back up and get all that work."

Awww I hate when that happens. And I would have loved to read the whole critique.

So I'll sum it up: At level 13, having finished the SM PrC, you can deal 336 damage as a Standard Action. (Maximize the spell, with Spell Perfection. Then use Elemental Spell for free to change it to Acid). That's 14 Rays (3 from the spell, +4 from the class, then with Leaping Ray doubles them), each of which penetrates spell resistance, has very few Immunities or Resistances (being changed to Acid), and can be further upgraded with Ignite Slot.

1. I was actually shooting for 5th level entry into this, so that when you come out you're at 15th level, any way I can adjust the requirements to fix that?

2. 14 Rays seems a bit much now that I think about it, except that it's over 2 rounds, not 1. The second set of rays fire on the following round and CANNOT strike their original target, so the damage is more spread out. Maybe I communicated that poorly?

3. I was thinking of dropping Elemental Spell for allowing Scorching Ray to overcome progressively more Fire Resistance (and eventually immunity), but I'm not sure how to balance it.

It is a cool class, and you balance the line between funny and serious well. But the damage is a bit much, perhaps... Though it is balanced a little by loss of other options.

I'm glad you like the flavor, it's definitely a class I would want to try out, which is how I decide to make a homebrew anyway lol.

[Razanir]

1. I was actually shooting for 5th level entry into this, so that when you come out you're at 15th level, any way I can adjust the requirements to fix that?

2. 14 Rays seems a bit much now that I think about it, except that it's over 2 rounds, not 1. The second set of rays fire on the following round and CANNOT strike their original target, so the damage is more spread out. Maybe I communicated that poorly?

3. I was thinking of dropping Elemental Spell for allowing Scorching Ray to overcome progressively more Fire Resistance (and eventually immunity), but I'm not sure how to balance it.

1. Change the ranks required to 5, and you're guaranteed entry at 5th level.

2. I got that, at least.

3. Perhaps drop it for the Scorching Mage to get fire resistance and eventually immunity instead.

[SamBurke]

Awww I hate when that happens. And I would have loved to read the whole critique.

Yeah, I actually did a level-by-level breakdown of the power and damage output on a little table, and included notes and everything. It was a sad, sad, dazed moment when I realized it was gone.

1. I was actually shooting for 5th level entry into this, so that when you come out you're at 15th level, any way I can adjust the requirements to fix that?

Perhaps a necessary amount of ranks in Spellcraft or K:A or some such.

2. 14 Rays seems a bit much now that I think about it, except that it's over 2 rounds, not 1. The second set of rays fire on the following round and CANNOT strike their original target, so the damage is more spread out. Maybe I communicated that poorly?

I'm noting that if you use Scorching Ray again on the second round (and half your character or more IS Scorching Ray), then you get 7 round 1, 14 Round 2, and at least 7 Round 3, from two castings. I would double-check and make that as clear as possible, but it still means you'll have pinballing rays of fire bouncing everywhere on almost every turn.

3. I was thinking of dropping Elemental Spell for allowing Scorching Ray to overcome progressively more Fire Resistance (and eventually immunity), but I'm not sure how to balance it.

Fire Resistance/Immunity would be cool and flavorful. Perhaps it could be an option, to help create some more choice?

I'm glad you like the flavor, it's definitely a class I would want to try out, which is how I decide to make a homebrew anyway lol.

It's a class I'd love to take as a blaster. It makes Scorching Ray worth it.

[Elricaltovilla]

For the record, my number 3 point was wondering if the Scorching Mage PrC would be able to ignore an enemy's fire resistance/immunity instead of changing the elemental type of the ray, not that they should gain fire resistance/immunity. Although I suppose either one could be fun.

[Razanir]

For the record, my number 3 point was wondering if the Scorching Mage PrC would be able to ignore an enemy's fire resistance/immunity instead of changing the elemental type of the ray, not that they should gain fire resistance/immunity. Although I suppose either one could be fun.

I know. I just suggested gaining resistance because it sounded fun

[SamBurke]

For the record, my number 3 point was wondering if the Scorching Mage PrC would be able to ignore an enemy's fire resistance/immunity instead of changing the elemental type of the ray, not that they should gain fire resistance/immunity. Although I suppose either one could be fun.

Perhaps it should be an option? Either gain resistance, ignore it, or gain 1/2 other cool benefits.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Alright, I'm everything a quick look. No guarantees I'll find anything of value though.

Razanir:

• As this is pathfinder, BAB quality is tied to HD size; d6 is supposed to be 1/2 BAB, and 3/4 BAB is supposed to be d8. I'd recommend d8 (keeping 3/4 BAB) since they're supposed to be shooting arrows in between magic missile attacks.
• Magic Missile is 1d4+1, not 1d6, in Pathfinder.
• Simply a grammar issue, but there's a lot of missing periods.
• Pretty much everything Burke said. You have a lot of choiceless levels and need to more completely cover the even levels.

Elricaltovilla:

• A bonus feat is a pretty terrible capstone, even for a PrC.

SameBurke:

• That is far and above anything I've ever done or will ever do. This is the kinda thing that I have to play in order to give any real feedback on, so I'm not even going to try.

Dawnbringer:

• Simple, focused, effective. Expands where it makes sense to, but doesn't do stupid stuff to do it.
• Your requirement line is a bit screwed up though.

Osagasu:

• 71 damage average from sacrificing a 9th level spell is awful weak, don't you think?
• ... Oh right. Whoops.

gr8artist:

• Hangman's Noose would terrify me if I encountered it in game. Dear lord.

[Tanuki Tales]

Next run down coming down the pipe line; this time it's the Dimensional Dervish!

I don't see anything grammar wise to make note of, so let's move on, shall we?

• I look forward to seeing the fluff you attach to this class.
• While utilitarian and completely successful in turning a caster into a more mobile fighter, I feel that the class is rather...boring to be honest. It just essentially gives you 5 bonus feats, DD as an SLA (which, since it does this, I wonder if this class would be better served as something for melee characters and gishes instead of full casters, especially since it gets a d10 hit die and full BaB) and an extra attack. This by itself is kind of made worse by the fact that you can't take your first level in it till 8th or 9th level (level 13 for the poor damn monk). It just feels really niche to me.
• Dimensional Dancer needs to be tagged (I'm assuming you meant for it to be Ex.) and you need to specific what kind of attack it gets. Usually it's at their highest base attack bonus, but it needs to be clarified.

And that's it.

[Razanir]

Razanir:

• As this is pathfinder, BAB quality is tied to HD size; d6 is supposed to be 1/2 BAB, and 3/4 BAB is supposed to be d8. I'd recommend d8 (keeping 3/4 BAB) since they're supposed to be shooting arrows in between magic missile attacks.
• Magic Missile is 1d4+1, not 1d6, in Pathfinder.
• Simply a grammar issue, but there's a lot of missing periods.
• Pretty much everything Burke said. You have a lot of choiceless levels and need to more completely cover the even levels.

1) Will fix. Oddly enough, I was involved in a conversation on this in another thread not but a few days ago.
2) BONUS DAMAGE! While I understand that it's normally 1d4, I think I'll keep it as-is. Monks start their unarmed progression higher than normal as well (1d6 v 1d3).
3) My bad. I have a nasty habit of forgetting periods on the internet.

EDIT: I get the second comment now. It was referring to the d6 in Powerful Strike, which has now been fixed

[Elricaltovilla]

Elricaltovilla:

• A bonus feat is a pretty terrible capstone, even for a PrC.

I guess so, but since this is a class built around metamagic abuse, it seemed like the best way to cap things off. Any metamagic feat you want, fo free.

[SamBurke]

I guess so, but since this is a class built around metamagic abuse, it seemed like the best way to cap things off. Any metamagic feat you want, fo free.

Yeah... The most abusive feat in all of Pathfinder. (At least In My Opinion...)

SamBurke:

• That is far and above anything I've ever done or will ever do. This is the kinda thing that I have to play in order to give any real feedback on, so I'm not even going to try.

Yeah, that's the problem... I've been "play testing" it in my head, but that's not what it needs: It needs to have every level poked through, with people looking for exploits.