LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is

[Viera Champion]

So I just wanted to tell you about this Tinychat I am a part of. It is a really cool group of people, and we call ourselves the Gen Pie family (G for Gay P for Pride). The room is mostly LGBT people, but there are straight allies, and everyone is welcome. I encourage you all to at least check it out, even if you don't stay.

EDIT: Here is the link: GenPie family

[Serpentine]

Also, calling out "Die Cis Scum" is something I see as almost a duty. I don't know how it started, but every time I've seen it brought up it's confrontational to the point of driving away potential supporters and completely unhelpful to the dialogue. So .

The people that it's targeted for won't understand, and the cis allies who do understand it are uncomfortable with it and don't want to be associated with supposedly violent trans*. So it's really dumb. #transagainstdiecisscum

~ ♅

Thank you.

Triscuitable: I gather this thing you've been talking about has fallen through? I'm sorry to hear that, really.

[Heliomance]

Round and round and round I go. Where I stop, nobody knows~!

Looks like my identity is moving on again. Oddly , I'm more okay with this than I was when it happened at the weekend.

ION, I'll totally join Qaera's movement. #transagainstdiecisscum

[Asta Kask]

You know, if you want to tear apart WilloNyx's article on ally-dom you should really do it at her site (http://www.idioprag.com/) so she can answer you. It's not really fair otherwise.

[Astrella]

Thank you for standing up to Cathy Brennan, Asta. That meant a lot to me.

[Asta Kask]

Thank you.

Like I said, she's using scientific terms to gain credibility, and that works well until someone who actually knows what the terms mean comes along. What she should have done was to retreat to gender theory or queer theory - I could not have touched her there. Although I suppose there were others present who could.

[Coidzor]

You know, if you want to tear apart WilloNyx's article on ally-dom you should really do it at her site (http://www.idioprag.com/) so she can answer you. It's not really fair otherwise.

That's kinda what happens when you try to provoke a discussion on a discussion forum, mate. It gets discussed.

Besides, disagreeing with someone on their blog when they're going to be screening comments... Kind of an even bigger time-waster than most internet activities.

That and I think we decided to move on a bit ago. Maybe?

[Astrella]

Thank you.

Like I said, she's using scientific terms to gain credibility, and that works well until someone who actually knows what the terms mean comes along. What she should have done was to retreat to gender theory or queer theory - I could not have touched her there. Although I suppose there were others present who could.

I doubt it would have helped much to be honest. She and her companions have been pretty clear that they don't think queerfeminism is valid anyway. The thing that bugs me most is just how horribly prescriptive she herself is being about lesbian sexual identities.

Edit: Not saying that arguing against her is pointless in itself. Even if you can't convince her, it's still incredibly important to have the counter arguments laid out for other people.

[Elfinor]

What it means to be an ally.

Very interesting. I'll have to think upon this.

I echo Coidzor, Lyesmith and... everyone of a similar persuasion on the article.

I'd also like to add that to define an ally first means to define a 'movement'. It's obvious just from looking at this forum that trans* people aren't a homogeneous collection of drones with the same opinion. Who is part of 'the trans movement'? Who do I agree with to be 'a trans ally'?[sarcasm]Yes, I totally needed this forum to realise that trans* people aren't drones.[/sarcasm]
On a note I'm more personally familiar with, I know gay people who are out and proud, they call out homophobia but are still against gay marriage (for some reason). Are they a part of 'the gay movement'? Are heterosexual, cisgendered people of similar opinion 'allies'? I've had several debates (read:arguments) with gay and bi friends over what even constitutes homophobia. Most especially considering use of 'the bundle of sticks (I haven't got)'.

So I just wanted to tell you about this Tinychat I am a part of. It is a really cool group of people, and we call ourselves the Gen Pie family (G for Gay P for Pride). The room is mostly LGBT people, but there are straight allies, and everyone is welcome. I encourage you all to at least check it out, even if you don't stay.

EDIT: Here is the link: GenPie family

The sudden music and webcamness freaked me out, so I shut down the tab straight away and checked my webcam was disconnected I might come back eventually, but you should put a warning or something on it, geez

[Astrella]

Oh, that reminds me, would people still be interested in that voice group thingie? I would assume we'd use Skype for that?

[Qaera]

Oh, that reminds me, would people still be interested in that voice group thingie? I would assume we'd use Skype for that?

Yesssssssss

~ ♅

[The Succubus]

I see you still haven't gotten around to fixing your signature yet, Qaera. It's still using your old forum name. If it helps though:

It's a sacred rune, handed down from generation to generation used in the spell "Summon Qaera".

[Asta Kask]

I doubt it would have helped much to be honest. She and her companions have been pretty clear that they don't think queerfeminism is valid anyway. The thing that bugs me most is just how horribly prescriptive she herself is being about lesbian sexual identities.

Edit: Not saying that arguing against her is pointless in itself. Even if you can't convince her, it's still incredibly important to have the counter arguments laid out for other people.

There's still a way to salvage 'biological female'... but not within their bigenderist system. And I strongly doubt that it's worth the trouble. Plus, it leads to some really strange consequences.

She talks a lot about the lesbian right to self-identification. Only a lesbian can tell what a lesbian is. However, she doesn't seem to mean the right for every lesbian to decide on her own. Rather, she means the right for herself and a small clique to decide what every lesbian should like and dislike. There are numerous problems with this approach, but my first question would be "Who the hell died and made you queen?"

[Triscuitable]

We broke up. And I'm so confused.

[supernerd]

Oh, that reminds me, would people still be interested in that voice group thingie? I would assume we'd use Skype for that?

I'm a cis-male, but if I had a Skype, would I be able to join? I think I could help with voice training. I'm a tenor and voice modulation is pretty useful. I can make my falsetto indestinguishable from head voice, but I do get a bit shrill. Anyway, I could help with getting placement down.

[Qaera]

I see you still haven't gotten around to fixing your signature yet, Qaera. It's still using your old forum name. If it helps though:

It's a sacred rune, handed down from generation to generation used in the spell "Summon Qaera".

I know, but I rather like it. It's an artifact of the past! And so people know who I used to be, I suppose~

Thanks though *smoochy smoochy*

~ ♅

[Asta Kask]

I don't think that's necessarily fair. I'd embrace as an ally anyone who wasn't homophobic and factored in lgbt welfare in their voting habits. Not everyone has to be active to be an ally, it's the quiet support, acceptance, and integration that I really see as the goal.

Also, calling out "Die Cis Scum" is something I see as almost a duty. I don't know how it started, but every time I've seen it brought up it's confrontational to the point of driving away potential supporters and completely unhelpful to the dialogue. So .

The people that it's targeted for won't understand, and the cis allies who do understand it are uncomfortable with it and don't want to be associated with supposedly violent trans*. So it's really dumb. #transagainstdiecisscum

~ ♅

Thank you.

AFAIK, this is the OP.

Given that the OP clearly states that it is hostile, a threat and aggression it's a little surreal to see all the people who claim that it's not.

[Lyesmith]

AFAIK, this is the OP.

Given that the OP clearly states that it is hostile, a threat and aggression it's a little surreal to see all the people who claim that it's not.

Extremism is found in all places, it seems.

[Lady Serpentine]

I know, but I rather like it. It's an artifact of the past! And so people know who I used to be, I suppose~

Thanks though *smoochy smoochy*

~ ♅

Plus, the current quote's location (if you follow the little green arrow, at least) provides useful context as to what the rune is and why it came up.

[Serpentine]

Reading some of the extra comments, the person who wrote that seems like... not a very nice person at all. And I am extremely uncomfortable with the claim that if I want to support the trans* community as a whole, I am obliged to support that individual and everything they say regardless of how distasteful or even personally threatening it is, or be labelled an "Ally^TM".

[Astrella]

I'm a cis-male, but if I had a Skype, would I be able to join? I think I could help with voice training. I'm a tenor and voice modulation is pretty useful. I can make my falsetto indestinguishable from head voice, but I do get a bit shrill. Anyway, I could help with getting placement down.

Sure, I wouldn't mind anyone joining in. (And having more people to talk to is always fun.)

*hugs for Triscuitable*

[Mono Vertigo]

I'm so sorry to read that, Triscuitable. Stay strong.
*hugs*

[Asta Kask]

I can understand him. IIUC, he has been threatened, harassed, bullied and beaten down many many times. And apparently sent to hospital with severe injuries more than once. By cis people. It would be exceptional if he didn't hate us by now. And every year on 20th November there are the names of those who have been killed. By cis people.

What I think that analysis misses is that these cis people didn't do it because they were Cis. The cases of Hitler and Stalin does not prove that wearing a moustache will make you mass-murderer.

What I'm worried about - and I have stated it in many places - is that the trans movement (if there is such a thing; I'm a little uncertain*) is adopting the stance that the group a person belongs to is more important than the individual's thoughts and actions. That would seem to me to be suicide for a small, harassed community to adopt.

I am worried that the community is selling its soul and getting a very poor price in exchange.

* the 'trans movement' seems to be many individual movements heading in roughly the same direction. Maybe we will see them unite, like the small drops coalescing into a T-1000 in Terminator 2. But maybe not, and maybe that's for the best. You lose the freedom to experiment with alternative approaches when you become a grand unified movement.

[Mono Vertigo]

Plus, there are trans* people who oppress other trans* people, whether they're in denial/ignorant of their real identity. Does it mean they get a free pass because they're trans*? Or that because they're victims, they can't be aggressors ([bovine excrements], I'm pretty certain many trans* oppressors are not even aware they're being oppressed or agree about the oppression, especially those in denial/ignorant)?
Cis people are not a monolithic entity of violence, just like trans* people are not a monolithic victimized entity. There are innocents in both, sufferers in both, morons in both, haters in both.

If only that tattoo read "die oppressive scum" instead. Anger would at least be targeted in the right direction.
It's cliché, but violence does beget violence, particularly when people who had nothing to do with the original conflict are made to suffer.

[The Succubus]

What I think that analysis misses is that these cis people didn't do it because they were Cis. The cases of Hitler and Stalin does not prove that wearing a moustache will make you mass-murderer.

: "It probably wouldn't do you any favours though."

[Mono Vertigo]

: "It probably wouldn't do you any favours though."

Unless you're Charlie Chaplin.

[Asta Kask]

If only that tattoo read "die oppressive scum" instead. Anger would at least be targeted in the right direction.
It's cliché, but violence does beget violence, particularly when people who had nothing to do with the original conflict are made to suffer.

Personally I'm in favor of "Die transphobes". Preserving the original three-syllable structure and the sibilants that make a hissing, threatening sound.

I have nothing against an oppressed group taking up arms - I'm not a pacifist. But I do object to targeting innocents and I maintain that this phrase is targeting innocents.

[Serpentine]

What I'm worried about - and I have stated it in many places - is that the trans movement (if there is such a thing; I'm a little uncertain*) is adopting the stance that the group a person belongs to is more important than the individual's thoughts and actions. That would seem to me to be suicide for a small, harassed community to adopt.

But that article you linked to appears to be saying that if you want to support the group as a whole, you must agree with everything that every single individual ever says - or, if you don't, stfu or gtfo. And that just seems utterly nonsensical to me. I know, for example, just from here that not every trans person agrees with the "die cis scum" thing. So why is it that I, as a cis, must?

[Asta Kask]

But that article you linked to appears to be saying that if you want to support the group as a whole, you must agree with everything that every single individual ever says - or, if you don't, stfu or gtfo. And that just seems utterly nonsensical to me. I know, for example, just from here that not every trans person agrees with the "die cis scum" thing. So why is it that I, as a cis, must?

That's not what I got from it. You can protest, loudly if necessary, but you can't expect the whole movement to change direction because of you. You don't own the movement - the movement does not own you.

I've thought it through, and I think I'll do more good from within than from without. But that's a decision everyone must make for themselves.

[The Succubus]

Choice is a wonderful thing. I can choose who my friends are and what they mean to me. I can choose to champion their causes or choose to warn them if they're making a donkey out of themselves. Just as they can choose to ignore me or not.

A label that removes that freedom of choice is not a label worth having.