LGBTAitP - Part 22: The Best There Is

[Asta Kask]

Do we need to discuss the difference between a sane view of self-defense and preemptive attacks?

No, because as I have said many times - I still don't agree with "Die cis scum". Never did.

[Astrella]

I have never heard or read about it ever happening.

(Feel free to contact me at MSN or the Facebook chat.)

Focusing on trans* issues because that's what I'm sorta familiar with.

Remember the libra tampon add? That one had several cis gay people, including Ru Paul, identified members of the LGBT+ community coming forth and telling that the t-word isn't offensive. (Not too mention the incredible backlash trans* people got in r/lgbt for daring to be offended by something.)
Also: *cough* Dan Savage *cough*
The entire fractioning of r/lgbt started over people complaining that they weren't allowed to spout their transphobic nonsense. And I've seen on dozen occassions on trans-related articles people going "I'm gay and" followed by some horrible trans* stereotypes. (But that fits more in a general rant about LGb(T).)

While it certainly doesn't make it *right*, I think it has more to do with her being a child than her being trans.

Exact same thing to be honest. Children's agency and thoughts are often ignored because "adults know what's best for them".

Edit: Side thought; not saying anyone's actually doing this; but isn't saying "X community does something I dislike; I'm no longer an ally" comparable to the criticism "there's only one way to be an ally"?

[Serpentine]

Edit: Side thought; not saying anyone's actually doing this; but isn't saying "X community does something I dislike; I'm no longer an ally" comparable to the criticism "there's only one way to be an ally"?

Nope. Not even a little, unless I'm misunderstanding. It's just saying "I am no longer willing to align myself with this group, because our ideals have deviated". It's making no comment on what anyone else should or should not do or be.
It's more comparable to "I no longer enjoy any M. Night Shyamalan movies; I am no longer a Shyamalan fan".

[Astrella]

Nope. Not even a little, unless I'm misunderstanding. It's just saying "I am no longer willing to align myself with this group, because our ideals have deviated". It's making no comment on what anyone else should or should not do or be.

Those ideals very often happen to be about gaining rights and stopping discrimination against that particular minority. Saying you no longer align with that sends a dangerous message.

[KenderWizard]

Hey everyone, would it be okay if we moved all the allies/Die Cis Scum/legitimacy of violence in activism stuff into spoilers? It's a bit heavy and a bit aggressive at times. I agree that it's something that people need to talk about, but this is a support thread.
So, allies stuff:

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To be honest, I think allies are people who support the aims of the movement, and no one inside or outside the movement can really change that. It gets dicey when there's a contentious aim, I think.

Anger is reasonable from an oppressed person, but violence and advocacy of violence against random people is not reasonable as part of a movement.

I say again, everyone is allowed to have an opinion, but it is right to consider your own privilege and the situation of the people around you, particularly the people who do not share your privilege, when you're presenting or acting on your opinion, especially if it directly related to their life circumstance in a way it doesn't to yours. eg, a cis person proclaiming on trans issues. Unfortunately, no one is perfect.

Triscuitable is getting overlooked due to the argument, I think.

We broke up. And I'm so confused.

Hugs? I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you're coming to terms with it a bit. You know we're here to listen if you need!

[Serpentine]

Astrella:

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I'm not sure how that connects to your question... But that's exactly why I'm so uncomfortable with that article about what constitutes an ally as opposed to an "Ally^TM": because it's suggesting that if you have a problem with something an individual member of the movement says which is unrelated to the overall ideals and goals, you are no longer able to support those ideals and goals and should announce that withdrawal of alliance.
I'm not articulating this well, but hopefully you get the idea... But basically: yes, I agree with you. That is a dangerous message, and it worries me that that's the one I took from that article.

[Astrella]

Astrella:

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I'm not sure how that connects to your question... But that's exactly why I'm so uncomfortable with that article about what constitutes an ally as opposed to an "Ally^TM": because it's suggesting that if you have a problem with something an individual member of the movement says which is unrelated to the overall ideals and goals, you are no longer able to support those ideals and goals and should announce that withdrawal of alliance.
I'm not articulating this well, but hopefully you get the idea... But basically: yes, I agree with you. That is a dangerous message, and it worries me that that's the one I took from that article.

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Have you read the comment section on the Ally article? WillowNyx does address this. I think it comes down to two things 1) you can be an ally to a movement and disagree with certain parts. The main issue is trying to steer the movement in a way you prefer. 2) movements aren't monolithic. In this case there are tons of trans* people who don't agree with the sentiment and reasoning behind DCS. So it's possible to lend your support to those groups.

[Serpentine]

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No, I didn't read it, and I'm glad if she did address those issues. Because the trouble with your two points, with which I fully agree, is that to me that article does not agree with them.

[SiuiS]

Hi again.

I dissapeared because my tendency to make big quotes led me to be almost entirely off-topic in a thread where folks prefer on-topicness. But even in just the last six posts there have even things I want to look at and explore. Why do you people have to be so interesting?!

Irrelevant though. My absence directly contributed to making Astrella sad, back when nobody had much to say about her feeling bad. So! I'm belatedly sorry, Astrella. I didn't mean to ruin your day. Hug?

[Triscuitable]

Hugs? I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you're coming to terms with it a bit. You know we're here to listen if you need!

She'd been openly Bi for a while now, and this I guess was just the final straw. Trying not to dwell on it, but I haven't heard the right words to feel better. Everyone just says, "you'll have many more girlfriends" (thanks?), or, "maybe she wasn't the right person" (she was, it just didn't work).

People try to cheer me up, and it hurts more. I don't want a new girlfriend, I want my old one back. I want to take her out to ice cream, and walk her to the beach, and hug her as the tide comes in. Not get told that there's someone else. But I can't have her back. She's not openly Bi anymore, the relationship is over. The depression that I'd lost with her is back tenfold.

I hate this, why can't I get a relationship to WORK?

[Serpentine]

Wait... So is she gay now? Is that what happened?

[Thufir]

People try to cheer me up, and it hurts more. I don't want a new girlfriend, I want my old one back. I want to take her out to ice cream, and walk her to the beach, and hug her as the tide comes in.

I realise this probably won't help either, but this is a fairly normal and expected way for you to feel under the circumstances.
If people trying to cheer you up makes it hurt more (Something with which I can definitely empathise), I think you should just tell them you don't want to talk about it. Avoid dwelling on the subject, get on with other aspects of your life. It'll get better.

[Coidzor]

I hate this, why can't I get a relationship to WORK?

Head over to the RWA Thread and be prepared to have a good back and forth is the only real recommendation for you. We're not the end-all be-all or anything, but if you lay it all out for us as far as what's been happening, what you've been doing and the results thereof, it's fairly likely that something will suggest itself. I'd recommend waiting until you've had a chance to recover a bit more though and, as Thufir suggested, focus on other things.

[Arachu]

Hi again.

I dissapeared because my tendency to make big quotes led me to be almost entirely off-topic in a thread where folks prefer on-topicness. But even in just the last six posts there have even things I want to look at and explore. Why do you people have to be so interesting?!

Irrelevant though. My absence directly contributed to making Astrella sad, back when nobody had much to say about her feeling bad. So! I'm belatedly sorry, Astrella. I didn't mean to ruin your day. Hug?

Hey SiuiS! *glomp*

(I'm a lot less shy than I was when I was looking for names (or at least, I am on the forum). )

She'd been openly Bi for a while now, and this I guess was just the final straw. Trying not to dwell on it, but I haven't heard the right words to feel better. Everyone just says, "you'll have many more girlfriends" (thanks?), or, "maybe she wasn't the right person" (she was, it just didn't work).

People try to cheer me up, and it hurts more. I don't want a new girlfriend, I want my old one back. I want to take her out to ice cream, and walk her to the beach, and hug her as the tide comes in. Not get told that there's someone else. But I can't have her back. She's not openly Bi anymore, the relationship is over. The depression that I'd lost with her is back tenfold.

I hate this, why can't I get a relationship to WORK?

*Hugs*

[Triscuitable]

Wait... So is she gay now? Is that what happened?

For me, sadly, yes.

[noparlpf]

She talks a lot about the lesbian right to self-identification. Only a lesbian can tell what a lesbian is. However, she doesn't seem to mean the right for every lesbian to decide on her own. Rather, she means the right for herself and a small clique to decide what every lesbian should like and dislike. There are numerous problems with this approach, but my first question would be "Who the hell died and made you queen?"

That would be my response too.

We broke up. And I'm so confused.

:<
*hugs*

Spoilers because Kender asked and I'm sure some of this is what she was talking about:

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AFAIK, this is the OP.

Given that the OP clearly states that it is hostile, a threat and aggression it's a little surreal to see all the people who claim that it's not.

Wow. I felt a little sick just from reading that.

I can understand him. IIUC, he has been threatened, harassed, bullied and beaten down many many times. And apparently sent to hospital with severe injuries more than once. By cis people. It would be exceptional if he didn't hate us by now. And every year on 20th November there are the names of those who have been killed. By cis people.

What I think that analysis misses is that these cis people didn't do it because they were Cis. The cases of Hitler and Stalin does not prove that wearing a moustache will make you mass-murderer.

What I'm worried about - and I have stated it in many places - is that the trans movement (if there is such a thing; I'm a little uncertain*) is adopting the stance that the group a person belongs to is more important than the individual's thoughts and actions. That would seem to me to be suicide for a small, harassed community to adopt.

I am worried that the community is selling its soul and getting a very poor price in exchange.

* the 'trans movement' seems to be many individual movements heading in roughly the same direction. Maybe we will see them unite, like the small drops coalescing into a T-1000 in Terminator 2. But maybe not, and maybe that's for the best. You lose the freedom to experiment with alternative approaches when you become a grand unified movement.

I can understand being angry at people for hurting you. On the other hand, attacking other, innocent, people just because they share one trait with those people who hurt you? That's not a good way for things to work.

Unless you're Charlie Chaplin.

I kind of want to bring that mustache back. I wonder if being Jewish will make people less likely to draw the connection to Hitler.

Personally I'm in favor of "Die transphobes". Preserving the original three-syllable structure and the sibilants that make a hissing, threatening sound.

I have nothing against an oppressed group taking up arms - I'm not a pacifist. But I do object to targeting innocents and I maintain that this phrase is targeting innocents.

I'm just against "Die [anybody]". Until that anybody actively hurts somebody else. If somebody who is transphobic keeps it to themselves and doesn't attack transsexuals, they don't deserve to die. Somebody who rapes somebody, does. Somebody who kills somebody for any reason other than to protect themselves or family, does. Somebody who beats somebody, I'm not sure about. I know I personally might kill somebody who hurt somebody close to me, but that doesn't mean I think it's right.

I'm with Gandhi and King on this one. Violence and violent rhetoric are no way to improve things in the long run. "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

No, it's not easy. Yes, hatred to meet hatred is easier, and comes naturally. But I still think, after all I've been through, after all the hatred people have thrown at me that hatred is never the right response. It only brings more upon you. Anger is good, anger can be a powerful motivator to right wrongs and move away from stagnation, but you should never make the mistake of letting your anger spill over into hatred of other human beings.

And no, I don't always practice what I preach. I'm not that good. But I darn skippy keep trying to.

And seeing as in your long life you watched their movements, I'm going to agree with you. I believe violence is only acceptable when used for self-defence. To hurt somebody else is to presume that one is capable of and worthy of fairly judging others. I don't believe any person is "better" than another to the point where that person is worthy of judging others.

[Serpentine]

So this job application I just filled out has transgender under "gender"^ and "sexuality"*. Discuss.

^male/female/transgender
*heterosexual or straight/homosexual/lesbian/transgender/bisexual/prefer not to say

[golentan]

Why on earth is transgender under sexuality as well as gender??? It's not so much redundant as nonsensical*.

*from the perspective of anyone intimately familiar with the term.

[Triscuitable]

I've been thinking. I think that I've been a moron lately, and I need to think about who I am. Maybe I'm just a girly guy, maybe I'm not. I'm too much of a woman to be a man, too manly to be a woman.

Do I care? No, I just want answers.

Time to take another break, see you guys in a while.

[SiuiS]

Im sorry to hear that friend. It's true you know; things do get better. You will be okay. Often that knowledge makes things worse. The future is the future, it will keep. But right now is where you live, and that hurts.

Pain is a catalyst for growth. Now is the time to self-revise. But be cautious. It's easy to have new paths staked and marked by logic, colored by anger or hurt or resentment, that you don't notice until far down the line. Try to stay honest with yourself on all levels. If something seems like a good idea only because you're hurt, it's best to acknowledge that.

Good luck and swift journey.

[Arachu]

So this job application I just filled out has transgender under "gender"^ and "sexuality"*. Discuss.

^male/female/transgender
*heterosexual or straight/homosexual/lesbian/transgender/bisexual/prefer not to say

... I don't know if I should applaud or facepalm.

I've been thinking. I think that I've been a moron lately, and I need to think about who I am. Maybe I'm just a girly guy, maybe I'm not. I'm too much of a woman to be a man, too manly to be a woman.

Do I care? No, I just want answers.

Time to take another break, see you guys in a while.

Whatever your answer(s) is, I'm sure you'll find it eventually. *Hugs*

Honestly, though, you're being too hard on yourself. These matters are notoriously confusing, and you aren't a moron just for having trouble figuring it all out. Hell, if anything you're wise for giving it so much thought.

[Mystic Muse]

No idea whether it matters to anyone, but for a couple reasons, I'm just changing my forum Icon to female. no, I haven't transitioned or anything, still haven't even come out yet, I just think I should just go with female. It's also easier to explain away if anybody in my family asks about my account.

[Heliomance]

Why on earth is transgender under sexuality as well as gender??? It's not so much redundant as nonsensical*.

*from the perspective of anyone intimately familiar with the term.

Probably because the terms "gay" and "straight" stop meaning much when you don't have a clearly defined binary identity as a starting point. It's why I prefer "androsexual" and "gynosexual", but those terms aren't widely known.

Also, congrats Soft Serve! (I think? Are congratulations in order?)

[Arachu]

I just scratched the back of my neck... From underneath. I knew I was flexible, but damn!

No idea whether it matters to anyone, but for a couple reasons, I'm just changing my forum Icon to female. no, I haven't transitioned or anything, still haven't even come out yet, I just think I should just go with female. It's also easier to explain away if anybody in my family asks about my account.

Good idea. Also *hugs*.

[The Succubus]

So this job application I just filled out has transgender under "gender"^ and "sexuality"*. Discuss.

^male/female/transgender
*heterosexual or straight/homosexual/lesbian/transgender/bisexual/prefer not to say

It may not be entirely correct but I like to think of it as a good step in the right direction. It recognises that sex and gender are different and it has a wider range of options than just M/F

[Lix Lorn]

It may not be entirely correct but I like to think of it as a good step in the right direction. It recognises that sex and gender are different and it has a wider range of options than just M/F

This. It's not correct, but it's far better than not.

[noparlpf]

So this job application I just filled out has transgender under "gender"^ and "sexuality"*. Discuss.

^male/female/transgender
*heterosexual or straight/homosexual/lesbian/transgender/bisexual/prefer not to say

Hey, at least they're trying. Although the sexuality line is kind of a mess.

I've been thinking. I think that I've been a moron lately, and I need to think about who I am. Maybe I'm just a girly guy, maybe I'm not. I'm too much of a woman to be a man, too manly to be a woman.

Do I care? No, I just want answers.

Time to take another break, see you guys in a while.

*hugs* and good luck with your introspection.

[Asta Kask]

People try to cheer me up, and it hurts more. I don't want a new girlfriend, I want my old one back. I want to take her out to ice cream, and walk her to the beach, and hug her as the tide comes in. Not get told that there's someone else. But I can't have her back. She's not openly Bi anymore, the relationship is over. The depression that I'd lost with her is back tenfold.

I hate this, why can't I get a relationship to WORK?

Ok. Here's some advice. Wait. In time the screaming pain becomes a dull ache. You learn to live with it. There will even be times when you won't notice it.

[Wormwood74]

Thought I would say hello, come out a bit since this is an LGBT friendly forum. So, hi. I'm trans, will be getting facial surgery on Tuesday, and be full time aftter that.

[KenderWizard]

Good for you, Soft Serve!

Poor Triscuitable. That's really tough, but so are you and you'll get through it.

So this job application I just filled out has transgender under "gender"^ and "sexuality"*. Discuss.

^male/female/transgender
*heterosexual or straight/homosexual/lesbian/transgender/bisexual/prefer not to say

Good try, people! I'm getting increasingly annoyed with forms that only allow male or female.

Related: Do you think forms would be better if people were more trustworthy when they fill them out? For example, I can imagine if the gender options were
( ) Male
( ) Female
( ) Other: ___________________
that you would get people going "hur hur, I'll put other and say my gender is gay/Jedi/toast/f**k off!". Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic about it. And to be clear, I don't think that's a good reason not to put "other" there, just that people making the forms might not want to put in "niche" options that are likely to attract joke answers. I would put in other and if someone wrote "toast", their form would go in the bin! Hopefully no one legitimately identifies as a toast gender.