My Little Pony XL: The Plot Thickens!

[Thanqol]

Who's the Element of tautology now?

I actually have to disagree a little. Where and how you end a story determines what the story is. Romeo and Juliet was five acts long. End it after four and you have a story of young lovers abandoning a decadent but poisonous family feud to be together. Write a sixth act where the tragedy has inspired the Montegues and Capulets to ally together and build a more prosperous city and you have a somewhat bittersweet tale about how one moves beyond guilt and shame to a brighter future. These are three different stories, not three versions of the same story.

No-no, the character's own story arcs is different from the narrative they're contained within. Romeo's story ends happily married to Juliet. It's cut short by the feuding of the families; that's tragic. MacBeth's (the character) story ends with him victorious over his enemies, and a happy and loyal vassal. It continues on too far and reaches corruption.

For a character driven story, the character's personal arc and the storyline are often similar. They're not the same; they clash and bounce and tangle with each other.

[the_druid_droid]

Celestia and Luna, as Gentry themselves, wouldn't allow iron in Equestria in the first place.

This intrigues me... Celly and Luna would seem to be remarkably compassionate for the Gentry.

The big thing is- and this is the reason why I quoted "script" there- is that I'm actually seeing this as more of an animation without any actual voice work. Kind of like a Tom and Jerry cartoon, or one of the "Dad" episodes of Dexter's Laboratory. I mean, yes, the whole thing's going to be about how long and painful Rainbow Dash is waiting, but it just totally clicks for me in my head. So, yeah, it'll be a really boring fanfic because of that, but at least there won't be any stunted dialogue.

Been watching Samurai Jack lately. Genndy Tartakovsky does so much with so little, dialog-wise.

[Eakin]

No-no, the character's own story arcs is different from the narrative they're contained within. Romeo's story ends happily married to Juliet. It's cut short by the feuding of the families; that's tragic. MacBeth's (the character) story ends with him victorious over his enemies, and a happy and loyal vassal. It continues on too far and reaches corruption.

For a character driven story, the character's personal arc and the storyline are often similar. They're not the same; they clash and bounce and tangle with each other.

Well, it wasn't very clear from your post that you meant character story rather than plot story, but I'll take a kick at those freshly-moved goalposts anyway.

It seems like you're suggesting that characters lose their agency, and therefore one would think their purpose for demonstrating the author's chosen morality or worldview, once they've reached some arbitrarily chosen endpoint to their arc. Just because Romeo and Juliet doesn't get an end with a big wedding, babies, and a long happy life doesn't mean that everything after that was interference from outside. They both chose suicide (stupidly, it turns out). Maybe Romeo's arc would have ended with disillusionment and regret over marrying the girl he'd known all of 15 minutes and 5 years down the line having a psychotic break and murdering Juliet and their child, then finding true happiness with a second wife. Time passes, priorities shift, people change.

Hell, based on Act 1 scene 1 you could say that Romeo's character arc was to meet and win over that other chick he was pining over before he saw Juliet. You can only impose a character arc on the narrative once you already know what's going to happen, after the plot arc has finished it's meddling.

I guess I just don't see how you can separate them without authorial omniscience.

Been watching Samurai Jack lately. Genndy Tartakovsky does so much with so little, dialog-wise.

Holy crap yes. That show is a writer's crash course on "Less is More" and "Art Direction matters way more than you think."

[Thanqol]

This intrigues me... Celly and Luna would seem to be remarkably compassionate for the Gentry.

I had this discussion with BlasTech in person when I was setting up Waiting For Rain. All of Equestria is a realm of Arcadia; the mane six ponies are all Changelings. Celestia, Luna and Discord are all True Fae. It's kind of a dark take, but it holds up.

1. Narrative reality. The laws of physics take a definite backseat to whatever is narratively convenient.

2. The Gentry are not necessarily evil; they're just distant and alien. It is more than possible for a Changeling to have a relatively pleasant Durance and emerge without any of the mental scars that others sustain (if I ever get to play a Changeling game, my pre-prepared character is a combination of Daring Do/Indiana Jones/Lara Croft who had an awesome time in the Hedge and only fled when her Keeper started writing nazi archaeologists into her story). Celestia certainly counts as distant, and most of the time distance from the Fae is the best thing for them.

3. Compatibility with all of the fanfics at the same time.

4. The Elements of Harmony are the manifestation of the Contract that makes up the Waypoint; the Contract's price is that it can only be used by those who wield the six virtues that comprise it. Whoever can fulfil the terms of the Contract can rule the Waypoint. Celestia is nice because she needs to encourage those virtues amongst her Changelings so that she can maintain undisputed authority over her realm. She needs humans to fill these roles because she can't satisfy the contract herself.

5. Background characters don't really exist; only six real people in the world

Kinda dark!

Well, it wasn't very clear from your post that you meant character story rather than plot story, but I'll take a kick at those freshly-moved goalposts anyway.

Sorry for the partial articulation there.

It seems like you're suggesting that characters lose their agency, and therefore one would think their purpose for demonstrating the author's chosen morality or worldview, once they've reached some arbitrarily chosen endpoint to their arc. Just because Romeo and Juliet doesn't get an end with a big wedding, babies, and a long happy life doesn't mean that everything after that was interference from outside. They both chose suicide (stupidly, it turns out). Maybe it would have ended with disillusionment and regret over marrying the girl he'd known all of 15 minutes and 5 years down the line having a psychotic break and murdering Juliet and their child. Time passes, priorities shift, people change.

Hell, based on Act 1 scene 1 you could say that Romeo's character arc was to meet and win over that other chick he was pining over before he saw Juliet. You can only impose a character arc on the narrative once you already know what's going to happen, after the plot arc has finished it's meddling.

I guess I just don't see how you can separate them without authorial omniscience.

I recognise that my point isn't hugely strong, or is couched in the wrong terms. I think there's something to it but I'm going to need to think about it before I can say it right.

[otakuryoga]

i throw my vote at
My Little Pony XLI: Today the Forum, Tomorrow the World

[Anarion]

I recognise that my point isn't hugely strong, or is couched in the wrong terms. I think there's something to it but I'm going to need to think about it before I can say it right.

I think what you're getting at is that there is something that at least resembles standard narrative structure. Stories are expected to have a beginning, a middle, and an end, which is a thing distinct from any specific story. Genres then have particular conventions, with the 3-act structure probably being the most broad and the most common. But one could point to the structure of most operas or to most fantasy stories and draw out certain common elements that provide the basic structure of that particular genre.

When a story uses some of those elements in order to set itself in that genre (as Macbeth does with a Shakespearean tragedy) but then ignores or bypasses others (such as with Macbeth's early climax in killing the king followed by their slow descent into madness) you get a story that feels "off."
This breaks down in the case of Macbeth because the audience knows it's a Shakespeare play. There's just no way the main character can win and get away scot-free in a play like that, so everyone knows that something bad is going to happen. So it doesn't really subvert much, but it does take advantage of a sort of double climax to make its story about a fall rather than a rise.

[Benson]

If Thanqol were less abstract in his drawing, potentially the Element of Hot Pony Kisses (Benson). To be honest, I'm surprised the two of you haven't teamed up for some sort of buddy-cop hijinks. Except instead of catching crooks with gratuitous explosions, you'd be working relationship magic...with gratuitous explosions.

Sometimes I wonder if it was wise of me to not just skim the ponythread this time.

[Excession]

Good news everypony> Today I found a toy store selling blind-bag ponies here in New Zealand (K-mart if anyone needs to know) so I now own Twilight, Rarity, Rainbow Dash, and Pinkie Pie toys. They came as a set of four and no Fluttershy or Applejack to be seen.

Thank you Hasbro for finally finding a way to take my money.

[Eakin]

I recognise that my point isn't hugely strong, or is couched in the wrong terms. I think there's something to it but I'm going to need to think about it before I can say it right.

Well, yes and no. After all, you HAVE authorial omniscience. But to use it you have to discard the idea that your characters are flesh-and-blood people and accept that they're more like tools to tell the story you want to tell, the same way the setting and the "random" events that happen to them are. They're all to serve the greater goal of telling your audience a compelling story. You can't tease plot arc and character arcs apart.

"To end it sooner is tragic. To end it later is corrupt."

I'm more OK with the latter part. You end on a high note and everything is going to go downhill from there. Regression towards the mean is an immutable mathematical law. That's life. I don't think that muddies the purity of the story, I think it just emphasizes the importance of choosing a frame for it that will emphasize the message you want to send. Frame the story differently and it'll send a very different message.

The former I think it's easier to get away with. Maybe it's because I'm conversant in Trope at this point. I'm perfectly happy with an ending that lets me create the best possible ending for myself, even if it's abstract. I'm going to cite the ending of "Angel" as a good example.

I think what you're getting at is that there is something that at least resembles standard narrative structure. Stories are expected to have a beginning, a middle, and an end, which is a thing distinct from any specific story. Genres then have particular conventions, with the 3-act structure probably being the most broad and the most common. But one could point to the structure of most operas or to most fantasy stories and draw out certain common elements that provide the basic structure of that particular genre.

When a story uses some of those elements in order to set itself in that genre (as Macbeth does with a Shakespearean tragedy) but then ignores or bypasses others (such as with Macbeth's early climax in killing the king followed by their slow descent into madness) you get a story that feels "off."
This breaks down in the case of Macbeth because the audience knows it's a Shakespeare play. There's just no way the main character can win and get away scot-free in a play like that, so everyone knows that something bad is going to happen. So it doesn't really subvert much, but it does take advantage of a sort of double climax to make its story about a fall rather than a rise.

I agree that stories have structure and arcs, but I don't think you have to impose the same structure on each character for it to work. Only the story as a whole has a structure, and as long as that isn't violated your characters can do what they like.

Stories have beginnings, middles and ends. Our lives have beginnings, middles, and ends. But they can be different.

You know what? You know that moment in your head when you can do an entire story in a split second and then make the sequel? That just happened. I have a sequel. Thanks a bunch good sir. Thanks a bunch.

Happy to help! /Brohoof

[Forum Explorer]

my vote to Upside down and on Fire for the new thread title

[OracleofWuffing]

I hope you do because I can see it in my head and it's glorious.

And may I just say that I think Rainbow Dash being forced to wait in line at the DMV in a silent comedy skit would be utterly spectacular.

Okay guys, I got it written out. I make no promises that it's of any quality- my degrees are in visual arts, not written arts- but I think for the sake of people being able to read it, I should wait until the next thread to post it. I don't think I'll be awake when the thread goes up, though, so you'll have to wait a bit longer. Speaking of, here's what the new thread title break down looks like last I checked:

Thread Names That Have Received Votes*:
5- Riots, Riots Everywhere
1- Victory
1- Today the Forum, Tomorrow the WORLD!
1- Upside Down and Covered in Flames

Other titles:
Season 2 Ruined my Cannon
Yes, Those are Roman Numerals
Ponyland, Post-4/01
Suddenly Becoming Popular Again!
Elements of EVERYTHING
We won, good game
The Thread Shall Last Forever!

I'm not particularly rigorous on counting these votes, but it looks like unless the forum collapses on itself shortly, the Riots have it. Please don't start a riot over it.

*I'm not counting the person who suggested the title as a vote for that. If you want to count the person who suggested the title, add one to these numbers.

[Trixie]

Speaking of, here's what the new thread title break down looks like last I checked:

Thread Names That Have Received Votes*:
5- Riots, Riots Everywhere
1- Victory
1- Today the Forum, Tomorrow the WORLD!
1- Upside Down and Covered in Flames

Other titles:
Season 2 Ruined my Cannon
Yes, Those are Roman Numerals
Ponyland, Post-4/01
Suddenly Becoming Popular Again!
Elements of EVERYTHING
We won, good game
The Thread Shall Last Forever!

Hmm, curious choice

I quite like the very last one on the list, but it might be better saved for later.

[Grif]

Hmm, curious choice

I quite like the very last one on the list, but it might be better saved for later.

It's a meme that started several pages back.

*flips chair over*
*trips the fusebox.*
*Power plant explodes.*

Whops.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Can anyone remember what the riots were about in the first place?

*flips Isaac Newton over, falls upwards*

[Trixie]

There were riots...?

[Soras Teva Gee]

I was going to toss up nth Ponythread: Ponify EVERYTHING

Being both a play on the last episode and April fools. Ah well sleep called, didn't want to miss new ponythread.

[Sean Mirrsen]

And for the record, I support "Today the forum, tomorrow the WORLD!". Riots have more or less ended by now anyway.

[Soras Teva Gee]

And for the record, I support "Today the forum, tomorrow the WORLD!". Riots have more or less ended by now anyway.

I think it an amusing statement on Ponythread that we shove the ponification of the forums aside for an internal meme that developed only in the last five pages or so.

Does that mean this thread is insular?

[Trixie]

Does that mean this thread is insular?

Well, seeing my attempts to make it less insular meet with only criticism...

Tally:

Thread Names That Have Received Votes*:
5- Riots, Riots Everywhere
1- Victory
2- Today the Forum, Tomorrow the WORLD!
1- Upside Down and Covered in Flames

Other titles:
Season 2 Ruined my Cannon
Yes, Those are Roman Numerals
Ponyland, Post-4/01
Suddenly Becoming Popular Again!
Elements of EVERYTHING
We won, good game
The Thread Shall Last Forever!
Ponify EVERYTHING!

~12 posts to go...

[Aotrs Commander]

Huzzah! Aotrs Quote Post!

(Three pages overnight! Back to ponythread normal..!)

*pokes head out of 90 degrees to tomorrow* So the OFC doesn't work on robots? Hmm... actually, I think a spinal mount rainbow laser - well, it's not really a visible light laser so much as it is a magic-boosted x-ray free-electron laser powerful enough to ionize the air to whatever color you choose that I have set on "color rotate" because it looks cool even though it'd be more efficient to compute the wavelength and power of the laser based on distance to target but it's overkill enough already on most targets - theoretically of course, I mean I haven't got a power source ready for the handheld version - which reminds me that I was saying that spinal-mounted wouldn't have as much of a problem with finding a big enough power supply as the handheld prototype does. *takes breath*

Did I just talk myself into creating an overscaled MAD SCIENCE!!! weapon for ponythread? I think we're gonna need a montage. *ducks back into cover*

We've had this debate once before awhile back.

(Admittedly the OFC and it's variants are comparitvely easy to intercept, since by their nature, they aren't designed to deal heavy surface damage, and thus - due to the range differential, and because the come from an easily predictable attack vector from the platforms - able to be disrupted by our warheads. We couldn't try the same at short ranges, nor against a full-sized captial starship beam weapon; too fast and too coherent. But that's what shields and hull armour is for!)

Ah, but who designed the OFC in the first place? Surely they could create a version suited for heavy surface damage to penetrate the hull in rainbowy good armageddon?

Well, sure, but then it's not going to bring friendship to the masses; at the required level of power output all it'll do is just kill people, the same as any heavy energy weapon. All you'd be doing is firing a giant laser cannon (because rainbows are light at the end of the day) which wastes a lot of energy on spectrum variances and on the psionic/magical/whatever dohickey makes the friendship effect. I'm sure all the blackend and burned dead bodies¹ would feel especially friendly, were they capable of doing anything but smolder. But if you're gonna do that, you may as well just build a straight energy weapon like a lazer² or a particle cannon and have done with it. (Heck, you could probably even do one that refracts visible light in a rainbow corona (like the SSA's Warp Accelerator fields.)) But it won't be "friendly" by any stretch of the imagination.



¹And that's dead as in very actually dead, not Undead or any approximation of same.

²Which is subtly distinct from a laser (or for spoken clarity a blast-lazer as opposed to a beam-laser). Lazers are a Laser itself Amplified through an Emitter aRray (the Z part refers to the metal composing the emitter; I forget what exactly (we don't use 'em anymore, though they are extremely common in other galacti powers); zycron or zycromium or some such exotic metal, I think; I dunno, I'm a necromancer, not a metalurgist!) Lazers fire a blast or bolt, generally, rather than a beam and are vastly more coherent, usually to the point of imparting considerable impact force to the target point to boot. A laser burns and melts, a lazer makes the target explode, burn and melt and often fly backwards.

The short version is that it's either a positive energy-infused friendship-inducing nonlethal weapon, or it's standard - lethal - energy weapon. It can't be both, since the goals are mutually exclusive.

The only reason it affects me at all is because it's positive energy and I'm Undead.

*Begins stuffing Thanqol's TV into his chest compartment*

I might be a little late for the riots, but now it's time for LOOTING!

Missed you by about half an hour... Typical!

Incidentally, thank you AOTRS for linking that Robot Riot song

It just seemed appropriate.

...

...

Also I have been listening to various Phineas and Ferb songs nearly continuously while I was working on the Strayvians, so it was sort of stuck in my head.

I also dare somebody to go find the nearest Transformer and tell them their "sister is a fridge who's light is always on" and see what they do, because I swear that's some sort of obscene line or something...

You seem to have skipped introducing some of your other crew members. And your pikachu.

Eh, I figured they'd find that out as necessary.

Why would you not be? You're not undead anymore. O_o

Still sorta kinda am... But I'm also not friendificated.

*Slams hands over ears*

...

Uh... Anyone else getting a strange sense of deja vu?

...

Sooo tempted to link to Blackadder again...

And for the record, I support "Today the forum, tomorrow the WORLD!". Riots have more or less ended by now anyway.

There's a few wardroid still wandering around lost, I can see... We can always start rioting again, if it would help...

[Grif]

There's a few wardroid still wandering around lost, I can see... We can always start rioting again, if it would help...

*glances about warily.*
*flips the Lich.*

*RUNS AWAY AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.*

[Soras Teva Gee]

Well, seeing my attempts to make it less insular meet with only criticism...

Yeah that's a yes.

Tally:

Thread Names That Have Received Votes*:
5- Riots, Riots Everywhere
1- Victory
2- Today the Forum, Tomorrow the WORLD!
1- Upside Down and Covered in Flames

Other titles:
Season 2 Ruined my Cannon
Yes, Those are Roman Numerals
Ponyland, Post-4/01
Suddenly Becoming Popular Again!
Elements of EVERYTHING
We won, good game
The Thread Shall Last Forever!
Ponify EVERYTHING!

~12 posts to go...

Oh despite throwing a name out it was more a lament and of options that might have a chance... I will explicitly vote this time for "Today the Forum, Tomorrow the WORLD!"

If it matters I always encourage you thinking of something better which happen on occasion.

[Sean Mirrsen]

There's a few wardroid still wandering around lost, I can see... We can always start rioting again, if it would help...

I can't really join in with the rioting though. All I can do is sorta flip around my own place as an expression of agreement.

*flips over hovertank prototype*

*whunk* *vommmmmmm*

...

Huh, it can hover on the ceiling. Never saw that in the manual. I wonder what else I don't know. *starts experimenting*

[Trixie]

Oh despite throwing a name out it was more a lament and of options that might have a chance... I will explicitly vote this time for "Today the Forum, Tomorrow the WORLD!"

Ok:

Thread Names That Have Received Votes:
5- Riots, Riots Everywhere
1- Victory
3- Today the Forum, Tomorrow the WORLD!
1- Upside Down and Covered in Flames

Though, it sort of resembles a certain, old, unfortunately connected song.

Hmm, if we ever do Discworld crossover, 'PONIES. PONIES ARE NICE' would be sooo fitting ^^"

[Deadly]

Spoiler

Show

...less horrifying.

You definitely aren't looking at it right. Picture ye this, and be horrified (Season Finale):

Spoiler

Show

Hundreds of bronies, transformed into ponies and let loose upon Equestria, all wanting to hug (or worse) Fluttershy or whoever their pony-crush happens to be. That one scene with all the Rainbow Dash clones swarming in on Fluttershy? That was all the FlutterDash shippers getting ready to live out their wildest dreams.

If that's not horrifying I don't know what is.

[Aotrs Commander]

*glances about warily.*
*flips the Lich.*

*RUNS AWAY AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.*

*upsidedown*

I really should have seen that coming.

Pahahahahahaha!

Oh, shut up, you.

[Soras Teva Gee]

You definitely aren't looking at it right. Picture ye this, and be horrified (Season Finale):

Spoiler

Show

Hundreds of bronies, transformed into ponies and let loose upon Equestria, all wanting to hug (or worse) Fluttershy or whoever their pony-crush happens to be. That one scene with all the Rainbow Dash clones swarming in on Fluttershy? That was all the FlutterDash shippers getting ready to live out their wildest dreams.

If that's not horrifying I don't know what is.

Aww but hugs never hurt anyone!

Besides some of us have a sense of decorum and might abstain... yeah not enough but still.

[Deadly]

Aww but hugs never hurt anyone!

Besides some of us have a sense of decorum and might abstain... yeah not enough but still.

Spoiler

Show

I'd think there is a difference between a simple hug, and being swarmed by clones who all want to hug you at the same time.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Spoiler

Show

I'd think there is a difference between a simple hug, and being swarmed by clones who all want to hug you at the same time.

Yeah it would

*puts on shades*

A Riot.

[Thanqol]

Yeah it would be

*puts on shades*

A Riot.

And the ponythread credits roll