Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse

[tgva8889]

My bigger issue with Miracle is the annoyance it'll require to make it clear that's the card you drew.

It's not that much of an annoyance. You basically play as if you have a Delver of Secrets in play all the time. There's no other confusion. As soon as you draw the card into your hand, you can no longer Miracle it.

[Lord Seth]

Not really. It works like the delver flip: show it now, or forever hold your peace.

Well it would have been nice if it said more specifically on the card "if this is the first card you draw this turn, you may reveal it and play it for its Miracle cost on that turn."

Not sold on the Blue miracle card either. Some people have been freaking out about it, and while it does look strong, I'm dubious as to whether it's actually as broken in Legacy as some seem to be claiming.

[Fable Wright]

Well it would have been nice if it said more specifically on the card "if this is the first card you draw this turn, you may reveal it and play it for its Miracle cost on that turn."

Not sold on the Blue miracle card either. Some people have been freaking out about it, and while it does look strong, I'm dubious as to whether it's actually as broken in Legacy as some seem to be claiming.

Personally, I think it's going to go into some sort of Legacy Faerie deck. With Bitterblossom and Ancestral Visions, the deck really benefits from extra turns, such as those generated with Temporal Mastery and possibly Savor the Moment, if people catch onto that. And Bob, because card advantage. Plus it works with all of the nasty regular tricks like Spellstutter Sprite, Vendilion Clique, and Scion of Oona to hold the deck together.

[Scuzzball]

So I've spent a lot of time and gotten a bunch of help on this deck, and I think it's finally gotten to usually working.
Friend of mine suggested this site for stuff, so I did it on this site.
Here is my deck.

What could I do to (cheaply) improve it?

[Lord Seth]

Oh, and I get Miracle now. I'm dumb and didn't read it right and thought it meant you could play it during the turn in which you draw it, when it actually is you have to play it at the moment you draw it. Though I suppose they still could have maybe worded it slightly better, considering how many people seem to be misunderstanding it.

Which of course just makes the Blue miracle card look even weaker in my eyes and makes me consider the "oh no this is broken and should be pre-emptively banned" position to be even more tenuous (and, ironically, too pre-emptive).

[tgva8889]

I'm not sure how they could have worded it better. This wording is pretty much the way it has to work.

I believe the misunderstanding comes from people adding in words that are not actually there, which is what I did upon learning about the ability.

[Gallus]

I think people are misinterpreting "You may cast this card when you draw it..." to mean you are allowed to cast it for that cost for the duration of the turn, not just at the exact moment it's drawn.

[Lord Seth]

I would've reordered the sentence to "When (as?) you draw this card, you may cast this card for its miracle cost if it's the first card you drew this turn"

Though the reordering drew my attention to the "when," suddenly making me wonder if this is a triggered ability and can be Stifled (hence my "as?" in there, which should be there if it isn't a triggered ability--though really, is it Stifleable? It does say "when"...).

EDIT: To explain my reasoning: This way the "when you draw this card" is emphasized, resulting in less confusion.

[Fable Wright]

So I've spent a lot of time and gotten a bunch of help on this deck, and I think it's finally gotten to usually working.
Friend of mine suggested this site for stuff, so I did it on this site.
Here is my deck.

What could I do to (cheaply) improve it?

Take out Sanity Grinding, at least. It's not really good when you don't have a lot of Chroma in your deck. Also Phantasmal bears, and maybe some of your Whirlpoolers. Also, Hedron Crabs. Dear god, Hedron crabs win games by themselves. Thought Scours and Visions of Beyond are pretty good at self-mill. Jace's Archivist is a complete house, giving you more gas and decking everyone for 5 or more each turn. Finally, an Evacuation or two would not be particularly out of place, given that you really don't want a ton of creatures in your face.

Also, Draft and Sealed are both 'limited' events, in which you open up a set number of packs and make a deck out of them. Draft is slightly more complicated, and lands are provided for both.

[IthilanorStPete]

I would've reordered the sentence to "When (as?) you draw this card, you may cast this card for its miracle cost if it's the first card you drew this turn"

Though the reordering drew my attention to the "when," suddenly making me wonder if this is a triggered ability and can be Stifled (hence my "as?" in there, which should be there if it isn't a triggered ability).

Yeah, you need to make clear it's a static ability, not a triggered one.

[Lord Seth]

Yeah, you need to make clear it's a static ability, not a triggered one.

Well that's the thing, is it static? It says "when" on it, even in the original text.

[IthilanorStPete]

Well that's the thing, is it static? It says "when" on it, even in the original text.

Different usage of when; it's only a triggered ability when it begins with the word "when" (or "whenever", or "at").

[tgva8889]

Discussion of spoilers.

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It is not a triggered ability or an activated ability, so I guess that makes it static. Miracle doesn't use the stack at all. (Edit: Apparently, Miracle is a spell ability? Edit2: Oh, nope, it's static, checking wordings on the Comp Rules. It's definitely a static ability.)

I don't think it can be worded as you have listed because that implies it's a triggered ability, which I don't think it can be because abilities can't trigger from hidden zones.

Edit: From my understanding, Miracle is sort of a cost altering ability. But it's also doing something else by specifying when you can cast it at the alternate cost, so it can't be worded like those abilities.

Edit2: Panglacial Wurm is the closest example of what Miracle is doing that I can find. Miracle is allowing you to cast a spell during a special game action (drawing a card), similar to Panglacial Wurm.

[Suedars]

Personally, I think it's going to go into some sort of Legacy Faerie deck. With Bitterblossom and Ancestral Visions, the deck really benefits from extra turns, such as those generated with Temporal Mastery and possibly Savor the Moment, if people catch onto that. And Bob, because card advantage. Plus it works with all of the nasty regular tricks like Spellstutter Sprite, Vendilion Clique, and Scion of Oona to hold the deck together.

I don't see this deck being that good. It basically has the same gameplan as Thresh, but doesn't do it as well. Bitterblossom has never been powerful enough to be much of a player in Legacy, and neither have Spellstutter or Scion. Spellstutter is just a worse Daze, and Scion was marginal even in Standard Faeries. In Legacy it basically has you playing a worse version of Merfolk's (a tier 2 deck) gameplan. I don't really see what Temporal Mastery adds that pushes this over the top.

Speaking of Top, I'm pretty dubious of these Countertop Mastery lists. Countertop has always been vulnerable to strong aggro-control strategies, and considering that 2 of the 3 (arguably 3/3) top decks in Legacy, as well as the most popular tier 2 list, explicitly punish this weakness, it seems very poorly positioned. You're just spending far too much mana on setting up an extremely reactive gameplan and not doing anything. Legacy is too aggressive, fast, and disruptive today for that type of thing to work.

[Fable Wright]

I don't see this deck being that good. It basically has the same gameplan as Thresh, but doesn't do it as well. Bitterblossom has never been powerful enough to be much of a player in Legacy, and neither have Spellstutter or Scion. Spellstutter is just a worse Daze, and Scion was marginal even in Standard Faeries. In Legacy it basically has you playing a worse version of Merfolk's (a tier 2 deck) gameplan. I don't really see what Temporal Mastery adds that pushes this over the top.

Spellstutter Sprite is actually quite good. Read it more closely- counter target spell with CMC <= faeries you control. It's a conditional hard counter for a lot of the most powerful cards in the format. The rest of the cards, minus potentially the Scion, which can act as a counter to Bolts, Paths, and Swords to Plowshares and pump all of your bitterblossom tokens to 2/2 fliers with shroud, are solid on their own, but shine with tribal synergies. What really helps the deck are a bunch of time walk effects, helping get Ancestral Visions active, harnessing additional mana for making fliers with tribal synergies, and generally abusing upkeep effects from Bitterblossom and Bob.

[Lord Seth]

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I don't think it can be worded as you have listed because that implies it's a triggered ability, which I don't think it can be because abilities can't trigger from hidden zones.

Then switch my phrasing from "when" to "as." That seems to solve the whole problem.

I don't see this deck being that good. It basically has the same gameplan as Thresh, but doesn't do it as well. Bitterblossom has never been powerful enough to be much of a player in Legacy, and neither have Spellstutter or Scion. Spellstutter is just a worse Daze, and Scion was marginal even in Standard Faeries. In Legacy it basically has you playing a worse version of Merfolk's (a tier 2 deck) gameplan. I don't really see what Temporal Mastery adds that pushes this over the top.

How is Spellstutter a worse Daze?
Daze: 2 mana (free if you bounce an Island), counters a spell unless they pay 1 mana.
Spellstutter Sprite: 2 mana (no free option), counters a spell if its casting cost is equal to or less than the number of Faeries in play.

Maybe you can say Daze is better, but I don't see how Spellstutter Sprite is a worse Daze when the two seem really different. It's like saying Mana Leak is a worse Spell Snare. You can say Mana Leak is worse than Spell Snare maybe, but it's certainly not a worse Spell Snare.

Speaking of Top, I'm pretty dubious of these Countertop Mastery lists. Countertop has always been vulnerable to strong aggro-control strategies, and considering that 2 of the 3 (arguably 3/3) top decks in Legacy, as well as the most popular tier 2 list, explicitly punish this weakness, it seems very poorly positioned. You're just spending far too much mana on setting up an extremely reactive gameplan and not doing anything. Legacy is too aggressive, fast, and disruptive today for that type of thing to work.

Indeed. The decks that can pull it off the best seem to also be the ones that it does the least for.

What is the most popular tier 2 list anyway? I can never keep track of what's in which tier (doesn't help that there seems some disagreement on some decks).

What really helps the deck are a bunch of time walk effects, helping get Ancestral Visions active, harnessing additional mana for making fliers with tribal synergies, and generally abusing upkeep effects from Bitterblossom and Bob.

I'm dubious on how good Dark Confidant will be for a deck running the card in question. The issue is that if you get it with Dark Confidant, you'll both be taking a lot of life loss due to its casting cost and you won't even be able to cast it.

[Fable Wright]

I'm dubious on how good Dark Confidant will be for a deck running the card in question. The issue is that if you get it with Dark Confidant, you'll both be taking a lot of life loss due to its casting cost and you won't even be able to cast it.

Brainstorm/Ponder/Top say hi.

[Lord Seth]

Brainstorm/Ponder/Top say hi.

I know of them, and you're not guaranteed to have them at that particular time. Even with card manipulation, it's not a great idea to have a high-costing card with Dark Confidant, especially if said card requires you draw it.

[flabort]

Well, I have 3 real decks now. And played them against eachother against my brother. A mono-green, a colorless, and a WB. The colorless has a bad balance of mill and non-mill, and needs work still. The WB is better, but the strongest is the monoG.
I got the cards from the draft I did earlier (the only one I've been to so far, I wanna go again (So... Addicting...)), where I got mostly R, G, and artifact cards, the last mirrodin beseiged Fat Pack (numerous basic lands + 9 boosters), and 5 10packs (probably questionably legal but unofficial packs of 10 random cards, from various sets, for only 1$ each). So... not a bad collection for a start.
I'll post the decklists when I have more time, but I'm proud of the fact that my Green deck beat me every time. (Yes, he wouldn't take any other, it's his first set of games, too).

[tgva8889]

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It's worded similarly to other alternate cost abilities ("You may cast this for Cost X...") which is what makes me certain it is an alternate cost ability. The wording using "as" is much more similar to anything requiring you to choose something, which I'm not sure is exactly what is happening.

I'm pretty sure the word "as" implies something that's not actually what's happening. Not that it couldn't have been used, but because "as [thing happens]" is a wording used on Magic cards already in a different way than Miracle would use it, I'm pretty sure that's why they didn't word it that way.

Now that I think about it, I don't think you are actually casting the Miracle card as or while you draw the card, but very clearly after you draw it. Which is I guess where the wording came from.

I think the actual wording requires the card to function in a specific way:
1) You draw the Miracle.
2) Immediately after drawing the Miracle, while it is in your hand, you may, instead of paying its actual mana cost, pay its Miracle cost to cast it, and you may break normal rules of casting the card to cast it right now.
3) If you don't choose to cast it when stated, you can't cast it in such a way at any other time.

I think the listed wording does work this way. I'm not sure it could have been worded better. I just think it requires reading, which many people didn't fully do (I mean, I didn't) on account of the exciting part of the card being that it had an alternate cost.

[memnarch]

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It's worded similarly to other alternate cost abilities ("You may cast this for Cost X...") which is what makes me certain it is an alternate cost ability. The wording using "as" is much more similar to anything requiring you to choose something, which I'm not sure is exactly what is happening.

I'm pretty sure the word "as" implies something that's not actually what's happening. Not that it couldn't have been used, but because "as [thing happens]" is a wording used on Magic cards already in a different way than Miracle would use it, I'm pretty sure that's why they didn't word it that way.

Now that I think about it, I don't think you are actually casting the Miracle card as or while you draw the card, but very clearly after you draw it. Which is I guess where the wording came from.

I think the actual wording requires the card to function in a specific way:
1) You draw the Miracle.
2) Immediately after drawing the Miracle, while it is in your hand, you may, instead of paying its actual mana cost, pay its Miracle cost to cast it, and you may break normal rules of casting the card to cast it right now.
3) If you don't choose to cast it when stated, you can't cast it in such a way at any other time.

I think the listed wording does work this way. I'm not sure it could have been worded better. I just think it requires reading, which many people didn't fully do (I mean, I didn't) on account of the exciting part of the card being that it had an alternate cost.

Would this card's 'when' effect be a triggered ability?

[IthilanorStPete]

Would this card's 'when' effect be a triggered ability?

It's an activated ability that creates what's called a delayed triggered ability.

[Suedars]

Then switch my phrasing from "when" to "as." That seems to solve the whole problem.How is Spellstutter a worse Daze?
Daze: 2 mana (free if you bounce an Island), counters a spell unless they pay 1 mana.
Spellstutter Sprite: 2 mana (no free option), counters a spell if its casting cost is equal to or less than the number of Faeries in play.

Maybe you can say Daze is better, but I don't see how Spellstutter Sprite is a worse Daze when the two seem really different. It's like saying Mana Leak is a worse Spell Snare. You can say Mana Leak is worse than Spell Snare maybe, but it's certainly not a worse Spell Snare.

They both play the same role in that they're both conditional tempo counters that tend to either be blowouts or dead in hand. Daze is excellent disruption in the first couple turns, since it really slows down your opponent's early development. Spellstutter isn't as good turns 2-3, since in Legacy you generally can't have mana for it and 1 other faerie out turn 2, or 2 others on turn 3. It's better on turns 4 and beyond when you have multiple faeries out since its harder to play around than Daze at that point. The problem is that that just isn't as relevant in the current Legacy metagame, since the best/most played decks want to either play a 1 or 2 drop and protect it (Blade and RUG), or overwhelm you with their 1-3 drops (Maverick).

What is the most popular tier 2 list anyway? I can never keep track of what's in which tier (doesn't help that there seems some disagreement on some decks).

Fish/Wizards/whatever the Mono-U tribal tempo deck of the week is. It's (relatively) cheap, pretty good, not too difficult to pilot, doesn't coinflip based upon how much hate your opponent is packing, and one of the most popular archetypes (aggro-control).

[Suedars]

Although now that I think about it, Daze makes Spellstutter quite a bit better since playing around one usually means you play into the other (assuming Spellstutter is adequately supported). Any list playing Spellstutter should probably look into playing Daze as well (though then you run into the problem of having a miserable lategame due to terrible topdecks).

[tgva8889]

On the Miracle discussion:

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702.91a Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability (see rule 603.10). "Miracle [cost]" means "You may reveal this card from your hand as you draw it if it's the first card you've drawn this turn. When you reveal this card this way, you may cast it by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost."

Alright then, well, I guess they could have worded the card that way.

[Lord Seth]

On the Miracle discussion:

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Alright then, well, I guess they could have worded the card that way.

Which just goes to show my proposed wording would have been the better way.

[tgva8889]

By actual rules, I don't think your wording completely works. They have to have the "reveal it" clause in there, like they do in the comp. rules version of the ability, because I'm still certain you can't trigger things in hidden zones.

Though to be honest, I don't know why they couldn't put the full version of the ability in text boxes, it would have avoided confusion.

[Androgeus]

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So this card

Seems really cool.

edit:

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I now want to combo it with

Board wipe for a single black? Yes please...Wait can you be unable to pay 0 life?

[Binks]

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Board wipe for a single black? Yes please...Wait can you be unable to pay 0 life?

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As far as I know yes you can be. If something says you can't pay any amount of X that means you can't pay 0 of that either. Of course it's not really a single black board wipe, as you have to play and lose the angel, so it's a 2W 1C 1B 2 card board wipe that hits indestructible creatures. +1 card over day of judgment but also hits indestructible, not too bad. Does have issues with the two 'opponents can't make you sac stuff' guys out there, the rise elf and the new angel.

[Androgeus]

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As far as I know yes you can be. If something says you can't pay any amount of X that means you can't pay 0 of that either. Of course it's not really a single black board wipe, as you have to play and lose the angel, so it's a 2W 1C 1B 2 card board wipe that hits indestructible creatures. +1 card over day of judgment but also hits indestructible, not too bad. Does have issues with the two 'opponents can't make you sac stuff' guys out there, the rise elf and the new angel.

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Yhea, I think I failed to read Killing Wave Correctly there, thinking it was just opponents so my "combo" didn't really work as intended