Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse

[Mystic Muse]

Mikaeus is bad. Really, really bad. He is slow, has no protection and tends to be a dead topdeck.

Which Mikaeus are you talking about? The Lunarch can be played for 2 mana.

if he isnt set into spending money in stuff thats about to rotate, Id suggest picking up a Hold the Line event deck; it has good value and brings in some staple human creatures like a champion of the parish, 2 mirran crusaders and fiend hunters. As for ways to boost your creatures, there is always adaptative automaton, and the cheap enchant that pacifys non-humans and boosts humans.

Mirran crusaders rotate out this October which makes this a no go. I was thinking about Adaptive automatons, but wasn't sure whether they were a good idea. Bonds of Faith are definitely an option.

[Androgeus]

So in my usual attitude of going in to threads and dropping link, there's a live discussion Mark Rosewater and David Humpherys on daily mtg atm

also forum isn't updating correctly.
edit: it is now, I think I have super powers.

[LansXero]

Which Mikaeus are you talking about? The Lunarch can be played for 2 mana.

Sure he can, but then he cant pump anyone without killing himself (which would make him a 2-turn HotP), or gets gut-shotted (as he is an 1/1). You also have to let him lie around for a turn before you can pump your guys, which is why I said he is slow.

Mirran crusaders rotate out this October which makes this a no go. I was thinking about Adaptive automatons, but wasn't sure whether they were a good idea. Bonds of Faith are definitely an option.

I know, but for what an event deck costs (20$?) you get a bunch of Innistrad cards that work well with his tribal idea (including sb material) AND the crusaders for comparatively cheap, so even if they do rotate soon, he isnt losing as much as he would if he had bought them as singles. You should really check the event deck list: http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/pro...entdecks#deck1 :D

[Musco]

I would likle to add the GCCG site to MtG related sites (gccg.sourceforge.net), an online program with a lot of utilites, like MWS, but with an in-game currency, with which you can actually "buy" cards from other players (and play with your own cards, instead of any card), not to mention crack boosters and play sealed. Works for other games as well.

[flabort]

So in my usual attitude of going in to threads and dropping link, there's a live discussion Mark Rosewater and David Humpherys on daily mtg atm

also forum isn't updating correctly.
edit: it is now, I think I have super powers.

Click. Yeah, the forum seems to be having trouble with this thread today.

[Mystic Muse]

I know, but for what an event deck costs (20$?) you get a bunch of Innistrad cards that work well with his tribal idea (including sb material) AND the crusaders for comparatively cheap, so even if they do rotate soon, he isnt losing as much as he would if he had bought them as singles. You should really check the event deck list: http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/pro...entdecks#deck1 :D

*Takes a look at the list*

Just taking a look at what he'd actually use and what I'm pretty sure I can't get from my cousin or already have that's expendable, I'd essentially be paying 20 bucks for

1 Champion of the Parish
3 Nihil spellbombs
1 Nevermore
4 Celestial purges
4 Oblivion rings.


I'm not spending 20 bucks for that.

[Fable Wright]

*Takes a look at the list*

Just taking a look at what he'd actually use and what I'm pretty sure I can't get from my cousin or already have that's expendable, I'd essentially be paying 20 bucks for

1 Champion of the Parish
3 Nihil spellbombs
1 Nevermore
4 Celestial purges
4 Oblivion rings.


I'm not spending 20 bucks for that.

You'd be surprised how much use you can get out of event decks. A few months ago, I got the Vampire event deck for M12, mostly to pick up a few more Dismembers and Bloodghasts (Can't have too many bloodghasts...) and I'm still using it for parts whenever I'm looking for random cards. Of course, it came with quite a few more useful cards (Mimic Vat, Blade of the Bloodchief, Kalastria Highborn, etc.) that I would want to find from time to time, but its been really nice having them all in the same place when I need to modify my actual vampire deck.

[tgva8889]

I don't understand how Mikaeus is a dead topdeck. You will have to explain that one to me.

Mikaeus is the kind of card that if they don't have an answer to him immediately, you will just run them over with larger creatures. This is the kind of card you want to be playing in a deck that can't play cards with converted mana costs above 3, because it is the kind of card you will need when you want the game to be over.

[Lord Seth]

You know that there's no difference between the statement "Blue as a whole can't destroy artifacts" and "Blue can't destroy artifacts, period" right? They mean literally the same thing.

Well, I was interpreting "Blue as a whole" to mean "Blue in general" or "Blue other than a few rare cases" but I suppose that was a misinterpretation on my part. Regardless, I pointed out a Blue card that can destroy artifacts.

Energy Flux still doesn't destroy artifacts.

So the artifacts that go to the graveyard when it's in play aren't being destroyed? Come on, this is ridiculous semantics.

It isn't an answer to artifacts. It is an answer to specific situations involving artifacts, but it is not, in and of itself, an answer to artifacts in general.

Which was never the claim that I was disagreeing with. I didn't say Energy Flux would be a great answer to artifacts in all situations, I just said it could destroy artifacts. And outside of extreme semantics about how it technically is sacrificing rather than destroying, I'm not seeing how it doesn't.

Mikaeus is bad. Really, really bad.

Evidently he's bad enough to be in decks that took 2nd place in a Grand Prix, 2nd place in a Star City Games Invitational, got into the Semifinals of a Star City Games Open, and made it into various other top 8's at large tournaments.

EDIT: Oh, I missed the Star City Games Open and Grand Prix where decks using him got 1st place (granted, one of those decks had him in the sideboard, but it should still count).

[memnarch]

...So the artifacts that go to the graveyard when it's in play aren't being destroyed? Come on, this is ridiculous semantics.
....

Aye, but this is Magic the Gathering; semantics count. A good example would be an artifact creature with a Totem Armor enchantment. Down in the rulings, you can read that sacrifice effects don't trigger the ability. As energy flux causes you to sacrifice artifacts unless you pay the cost, it doesn't count as being destroyed.

[tgva8889]

1) As has been mentioned, no they are not.
2) As has been mentioned, Energy Flux doesn't even cause them to really be "destroyed," the opponent does by choosing not to pay.

[Lord Seth]

1) As has been mentioned, no they are not.

From a strict rules perspective, no. But I saw nowhere in the post that I was responding to that indicated that such a thing was the case. Though worth pointing out that forcing a sacrifice is actually better than a regular "destroy" effect (unless Sigarda's in play, I suppose), as it bypasses a card being indestructible.

2) As has been mentioned, Energy Flux doesn't even cause them to really be "destroyed," the opponent does by choosing not to pay.

A lot of times it isn't so much a "choice," and the point is it can destroy them. That seems an awful lot like saying that a Fiery Gambit doesn't cause damage to a creature because the flip might not go your way.

However, even ignoring Energy Flux, there is Disruption Aura, or if you want one that actually provides targeted destruction (or Tinker, if you want to do it to yourself), which is what you seemed to be demanding, then there's Arcum Dagsson.

[tgva8889]

A lot of times it isn't so much a "choice," and the point is it can destroy them. That seems an awful lot like saying that a Fiery Gambit doesn't cause damage to a creature because the flip might not go your way.

Actually, because rather than random as Fiery Gambit is, it is a choice your opponent makes, it is more accurate to say that it is like Browbeat not being a card draw spell, because when they don't want it to be it deals 5 to them instead. The fact is that it isn't a direct destruction of an artifact.

Since Disruption Aura is the same kind of effect as Energy Flux, I'm not sure it applies, either. Arcum Dagsson does do this, though, as it ensures destruction rather than just making the opposite more inconvenient.

I don't necessarily want targeted destruction, I just want certain destruction (barring one of the many effects in Magic that one could play in addition to whatever is being destroyed to prevent it).

[LansXero]

Evidently he's bad enough to be in decks that took 2nd place in a Grand Prix, 2nd place in a Star City Games Invitational, got into the Semifinals of a Star City Games Open, and made it into various other top 8's at large tournaments.

EDIT: Oh, I missed the Star City Games Open and Grand Prix where decks using him got 1st place (granted, one of those decks had him in the sideboard, but it should still count).

Seriously? The white Mikey? I could maybe see him work in some tokens variant or another, but in humans? :S. Sorry, but a guy that requires you to tap out to be effective, with no protection and no evasion, that also requires a large board presence to be relevant and has no inmediate effect on the board state seems bad to me. Say you are recovering from a sweeper, you topdeck hero, you got a threat that will incrementally wear them down, you topdeck geist and they better have another sweeper or they`ll be chump blocking for a while and taking 4 through the air. You top-deck mikey, and without another creature he gets chumped all day long, dies to any removal, and even with another creature has to sit there for a whole turn doing nothing. Or you tap out and it gets vapor snag'd for lulz.

[MammonAzrael]

Seriously? The white Mikey? I could maybe see him work in some tokens variant or another, but in humans? :S. Sorry, but a guy that requires you to tap out to be effective, with no protection and no evasion, that also requires a large board presence to be relevant and has no inmediate effect on the board state seems bad to me. Say you are recovering from a sweeper, you topdeck hero, you got a threat that will incrementally wear them down, you topdeck geist and they better have another sweeper or they`ll be chump blocking for a while and taking 4 through the air. You top-deck mikey, and without another creature he gets chumped all day long, dies to any removal, and even with another creature has to sit there for a whole turn doing nothing. Or you tap out and it gets vapor snag'd for lulz.

If you're out of cards and top-decking Mikaeus on an empty board, this almost certainly means two things: He's going to be rather large, and you're playing against control. Therefore he will put a fast clock on your opponent and he is unlikely to be chumped much, since control decks don't have a glut of chumpers. And while he is slow, he pumps the whole team, regardless of if he is removed. Don't think about him as an HotP, he is much more like Gavony Township. He works in Humans because he pumps whatever blue creatures you're running, from Delver to Snapcaster. Obviously there are differences, but he is still powerful and as a 1 or 2 of, makes sense.

[tgva8889]

Comparing Mikaeus to Hero of Bladehold puts Mikaeus in a bad light because it isn't Hero. The cards are entirely different. Mikaeus provides a modal threat, something that's useful early or useful late, that forces your opponent to answer it or have to face much larger creatures. Geist is also a poor comparison because it is an entirely different card. Geist and Hero are both "this game is over" cards, cards that you play in order to make the game end immediately. Mikaeus is not that card.

Mikaeus is good because it plays many roles. It doesn't end the game as well as Hero of Bladehold does, but unlike Hero you can play Mikaeus on turn 2 and force them to have removal for him. Mikaeus does excel in more aggressive matchups, where you can let your team go over the top of theirs by making your team much larger. It does not excel in matchups where you want them to just be dead, because as you've pointed out, Mikaeus is not very good at that.

[LansXero]

except that in the current meta it forces you to overcommit and eat a DoJ to the face (since unlike the cards it is not, it needs more cards to work and cant do much on its own).

[tgva8889]

Not really. For one, you can play around Day of Judgment by just not overcommiting. I will admit that Mikaeus isn't very good in a control matchup, but he's fine. Mikaeus is very good against the decks that don't have Day of Judgment, which are more numerous than the decks that do. You aren't playing him because he beats control decks. That's what Hero of Bladehold is for.

I'm failing to see how a card being bad against Day of Judgment makes the card necessarily bad in the format. Not everyone plays Day of Judgment. Not everyone even plays wrath effects. Mikaeus is very good against, say, other Humans decks and is powerful against aggressive decks, as he forces them to have removal or get overwhelmed by larger creatures.

Mikeaus does need more cards to work, but so does Honor of the Pure. That doesn't necessitate it being bad. And unlike Honor of the Pure, if you draw Mikaeus when the board is empty at least you have a creature on the table. And by the way, Honor of the Pure is the best card in the Humans deck.

[LansXero]

Well, I defer to the more expert deck designers if it has indeed been included in winning lists (a link would be nice), but in testing the UW build of humans doesnt need him; he doesnt shore up any weakness of the deck or advances any of its game plans. If you already have a large board presence, you will probably win regardless, if you dont, mikaeus wont save you. The match up to consider isnt control, is everything.

Vs. zombies, he gets edicted or doombladed, unlike a crusader (prot) or geist (hexproof).
Vs. R/G he gets gutshotted if you drop him early, or shocked, or red-sun zenith'd or ignored by pumped inkmoth nexuses, while chumped by elves and birds without doing much of anything.
Vs. Tokens how big your creatures are doesnt matter once vault is online, and they have far more creatures to chump you with. Or he eats a tragic slip.
Vs. Esper, elesh or wurmcoil wreck him bad.
Vs. Delver, he eats a vapor snag before he can even be relevant. That is, assuming they even let you resolve it, considering you arent likely to keep mana up for a leak if you want to make him big.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, I defer to the more expert deck designers if it has indeed been included in winning lists (a link would be nice), but in testing the UW build of humans doesnt need him; he doesnt shore up any weakness of the deck or advances any of its game plans.

I said it was a White/Green deck. Blue has no presence in the deck whatsoever.

[LansXero]

I said it was a White/Green deck. Blue has no presence in the deck whatsoever.

Ahh sorry, its just that Ive only ever seen Humans as UW, Green is more token-focused. I can see him working then, as the strategy is way different.

[Lord Seth]

Well, I defer to the more expert deck designers if it has indeed been included in winning lists (a link would be nice),

All right, here you go. Technically I was slightly wrong to say he won 2nd place with that deck; the Invitational involves both Legacy and Standard (quick explanation: There are three sections. The first section involves 4 Legacy and 4 Standard games, and the top 64 people move onto the second section. The section section again involves 4 Legacy and 4 Standard games, and the top 8 from that move onto the final section. The final section is just the usual Top 8 business, although only with Legacy decks), so it was with both the Legacy deck and the aforementioned Standard deck that got him second place. Still, from what I can tell, it was one of the strongest performing Standard decks in the Invitational.

Another one is here. This deck achieved second place in the Grand Prix in Turin (Modern format).

There were some other ones, but I'm sticking to only the biggest tournaments and ignoring anything before Dark Ascension came out.

[Suedars]

Vs. zombies, he gets edicted or doombladed, unlike a crusader (prot) or geist (hexproof).
Vs. R/G he gets gutshotted if you drop him early, or shocked, or red-sun zenith'd or ignored by pumped inkmoth nexuses, while chumped by elves and birds without doing much of anything.
Vs. Tokens how big your creatures are doesnt matter once vault is online, and they have far more creatures to chump you with. Or he eats a tragic slip.
Vs. Esper, elesh or wurmcoil wreck him bad.
Vs. Delver, he eats a vapor snag before he can even be relevant. That is, assuming they even let you resolve it, considering you arent likely to keep mana up for a leak if you want to make him big.

IOW every deck in the format runs removal. A lot of these don't even make much sense. With Zombies, Geist and Crusader are just as vulnerable to Edict, and you don't even mention RG aggro or Naya Pod, which are two of his better matchups.

[Ninjaman]

Spoiler

Show

Lands: 22
12xSwamp
2xGhost quarter
4xDarkslick shores
4xDrowned catacomb

Creatures:24
4xGravecrawler
4xDiregraf ghoul
4xPhantasmal image
4xDiregraf captain
2xCemetery reaper
4xGeralf's messenger

Sorceries:4
2xMoan of the unhallowed
2xGhoulcaller's chant

Instants:8
4xGo for the throat
4xTragic slip

Artifacts:2
2xMortarpod

That is 58

Sideboard:15
4xDoom blade
3xSever the bloodline
4xNihil Spellbomb
4xGeth's Verdict

I got 2 slots left, what shall i run?

Royal assassin
Evil twin
Skinrender

[AgentPaper]

Spoiler

Show

Lands: 22
12xSwamp
2xGhost quarter
4xDarkslick shores
4xDrowned catacomb

Creatures:24
4xGravecrawler
4xDiregraf ghoul
4xPhantasmal image
4xDiregraf captain
2xCemetery reaper
4xGeralf's messenger

Sorceries:4
2xMoan of the unhallowed
2xGhoulcaller's chant

Instants:8
4xGo for the throat
4xTragic slip

Artifacts:2
2xMortarpod

That is 58

Sideboard:15
4xDoom blade
3xSever the bloodline
4xNihil Spellbomb
4xGeth's Verdict

I got 2 slots left, what shall i run?

Royal assassin
Evil twin
Skinrender

Swamp Swamp.

[flabort]

Why is it most people don't like to see new drawback mechanics on new cards?

[arguskos]

Why is it most people don't like to see new drawback mechanics on new cards?

... care to elaborate, please? What card and what mechanic are you referring to?

[flabort]

Oh, I had made some cards in Salvation, and they featured a keyword that made it so that you couldn't play it the turn you played a land, and could not play a land the turn you played it. Like Rock Jockey, except they were giant turtles and golems, and otherwise "Tectonic".

Most of the advice I got is simply "I don't like drawback mechanics" and "Drawbacks are bad design".

*shrug*

[IthilanorStPete]

Oh, I had made some cards in Salvation, and they featured a keyword that made it so that you couldn't play it the turn you played a land, and could not play a land the turn you played it. Like Rock Jockey, except they were giant turtles and golems, and otherwise "Tectonic".

Most of the advice I got is simply "I don't like drawback mechanics" and "Drawbacks are bad design".

*shrug*

Because mechanics that are strictly drawback usually aren't fun, especially when you're interfering with a basic mechanic of the game. By and large, people like playing lands and casting their spells; your mechanic interferes with that. It's the kind of thing you might put on a couple of cards, not a keyword.

[Fable Wright]

Swamp Swamp.

I disagree. Zombies has an aggressive curve, and bogging it down with excess land can be a bad idea. While one more swamp might be okay, I personally would rather run more Cemetary Reapers and/or Fume Spitters. One-shot instant enabler for tragic slip, a way to deal with early drops without a Tragic Slip, and an additional Undying on a Geralf's Messenger is really good.