Mass Effect 3.5 Does this thread have a soul?

[SiuiS]

In what way am I doing so? I'm not referring to what I do as a level 1, aside from that one response to Arbitrarity's surprise at the offhand remark that I myself would definitely play like my class is supposed to even at level 1, which was always theoretical and based in my personal preferences.

This is a lynchpin in our differences here.

Essentially, what I am doing here is responding to your and Arbitrarity's argument that weapons alone should make it reasonable to accept a level 1 companion on silver. I disagree with this, both on theoretical grounds (only a Soldier is that weapon-dependant, unless the player is playing unorthodoxly for their class, which I will not assume they are) and on practical ones (I have never seen a level 1 player contribute effectively in a silver game, and I've often seen them fail to contribute much in bronze games as well).

It's the same thing from a different angle; I'm not saying guns should sway you, I'm saying lack of level shouldn't sway you.

All things except weapons are never equal unless comparing precisely the same race/class combination with precisely the same build. Not even at level 1.

Untrue. Every human has exactly 500 shields, 500 health, the same speed, capacity, hitbox, and dodge skill, as wells melee damage. They have one skill of marginal effectiveness - marginal enough that yes, they are all comparable from a "does it improve your performance" point of view - and one point that cango into an equally marginal power or towards skewing the base statistics listed.
Other races have slight differences. Other classes have slight differences. Two of them have differences big enough to actually punish them for not being more specialized, the geth and the drell. But compared to any class/race combo at level 15+ it's a paltry amount of difference. Nigh unnoticeable on the field; only skill (which I have to dismiss as its unknowable in this context) and weapon strength will make a numerical difference.

And if they're playing another class, I presume they prefer the play style that class is based around, therefore I will not assume that they'll play like a soldier.

The classes do not have definitive play styles; I would cite as evidence the continuous, broad applications of different focii during building and rebuilding. The most recent example was the human vanguard as a flamethrower; the numbers are there. The functionality is testable. Perform the test yourself before dismissing my (so far proven and tested) hypothesis.

I have listed continually different takes, builds and applications that I have found numerically viable. I have challenged people to try them. I have demonstrated - not stated, but actually demonstrated - that each class has a broad spectrum of applications. Until you can actually counter that, your assertion that a class should play as it is "intended" doesn't hold water.

To paraphrase a famous mathematician, "just one play style and all those options just doesn't add up."

But that is not the case at all. As I pointed out, even at level 1 each class is very capable of playing like what it is simply by picking the appropriate powers and using those. That the classes all must play the same at level 1 is merely an assumption you are making, and seem to be asking me to accept as fact even though it is not.

Ah, no. I'm not saying they all must play the same, just as I am insisting that the same class must not always platt the same.

You can pick the appropriate powers to play the class as you insist it is intended. Yes. However, I am fairly certain that an Asari adept with 1 stasis, 1 warp/throw, and... A 200% cool down will function mathematically, noticeably inferior to an Asari adept with the same powers, a good gun and a 100% cool down. Because the 'intended playstyle' is unoptimal. The DpS is radically on the side of a better gun. The "intended play style" will noticeably impede your success.

My assumption is that you are kicking a level one player because they will not succeed because they will play the class as 'intended' instead of trying to succeed. And that bothers me, because you are enforcing both the notion that classes have a obvious place they shouldn't deviate from (which I disagree with), but that this false delineation is reason to judge someone.

Um, no, no we did not. This is precisely the argument that I argued against earlier. Krogan and Batarian Soldiers having tech armor knock-offs do not make them Sentinels, Turian Soldiers using a light gun are nothing anywhere near an Engineer.

Given my so far unchallenged presentation of how classes do not have defined play styles by their nature, then this is actually something worth looking at. You don't play soldiers because you don't like the soldier play style. Would you use the soldier class, if it didn't come with the play style? Because according to someone else in this thread, Batavian soldiers do not have the soldier play style despite the soldier class name.

Also, How has my demonstrating each class successfully and evenly in a variety of roles not established that each class can operate successfully and evenly in a variety of roles? I've been doing it since the demo. I've been successfully subverting each classes 'intended playstyle' since I started posting in this thread back yonder.

I think yes, yes we have established that. Objecting to the statement doesn't make it untrue.

You asked a while ago whether play style, powers, or name made a class, and I responded "all of the above." I think you may have misinterpreted that: it did not mean "any of those things can do so," it meant "all of those things collectively do so."

Zevox

I understood that. I've just given so many examples of how Some of those aren't actual factors at all it's odd toxins resistance so late after the fact. I feel like I've established without contradiction A=1, B=2, and C=3. No retorts from anyone. Then I say A+B+C=6 and now you cry foul. Is it any wonder I am irate?

I see now that, especially given the number of people who entirely passed by my posts due to color (you humans are all racist!), that a lot of my statements weren't logged properly. There was a staccato narrative that was overlooked, and the poor presentation is my fault. I will have to do it all again, I suppose.

It will be about a year though, unless the orthopedic surgeon is a miracle worker.

[Anarion]

Well I like to keep my medi-gel supplies high. And I can't have that if Liara drops on the floor halfway across the battlefield. I rely heavily on squadmates so my plan goes AWOL if they get killed and are too far to be manually revived. Liara just happens to die more often than the others. (this has happened a lot in ME2 with all squadmates, I know AI has improved in ME3 but they can still be really dumb sometimes) I will admit so far I am overestimating Insanity, but again, Liara brings nothing that will improve my performance in the game and will be more of a liability. That and I don't really like her as much as other squadmates, so she isn't used.

I think you may be overestimating the difference between party members, especially on insanity. Pretty much every party member is going to die to one grenade on insanity, and if you send them into a bad position, they'll go down within a couple of seconds of assault rifle fire as well. It doesn't matter that Liara has a bit less life than Javik, they die equally fast or don't die at all. I agree that Javik is better with a gun, although my personal favorite there is Garrus with a black widow and max sniper rifle damage. Liara's thing is that she just ends the fight instantly by putting enemies in a stasis or singularity with no travel time. When that's good, she's a spectacular party member. When you're fighting a bunch of enemies with armor, she's good for slightly faster biotic detonations and can have fun with a paladin, but she's much less valuable.

I will continue to stagger foes with basic powers and shoot them in the face. That actually seems to be the playstyle of most classes, except for Adepts and Vanguards; tech combos are really hard to set off by yourself, so you mostly end up spamming them for damage/stagger anyways.

I agree in general that I wouldn't rely on a level 1 in Silver, unless they are fairly high N7 and have strong weapons. Mostly that's a probability estimation though; note my screenshots back on page 46. Level 1 characters are perfectly CAPABLE of contributing to silver.
It's not even about "heavy weapons"; Geth Plasma Shotgun X alone only drops you to 100% cooldown, and is the only gun you need on any class to win on Silver. It's incredibly easy to use, powerful at all ranges, and effective against every enemy. Heck, I use it on my Engineers at 20, because the ease of use compared to effective Carnifex use makes their play more relaxed.

Anyways, level 1 only shows up once per promotion cycle. While it's entertaining to watch the votekicks from N7 80's on Silver, I should probably just practice shooting things in the head on Bronze.

Honest question for you here. I have the GPS at IV right now, and although I agree that it's really strong I've been having two problems with it
1. I find it hard to hit things at longer range (possibly due to lag)
2. I keep running out of ammo, especially when taking down brutes or banshees.

How do you make it work so well for you?

[Starsign]

I think you may be overestimating the difference between party members, especially on insanity. Pretty much every party member is going to die to one grenade on insanity, and if you send them into a bad position, they'll go down within a couple of seconds of assault rifle fire as well. It doesn't matter that Liara has a bit less life than Javik, they die equally fast or don't die at all. I agree that Javik is better with a gun, although my personal favorite there is Garrus with a black widow and max sniper rifle damage. Liara's thing is that she just ends the fight instantly by putting enemies in a stasis or singularity with no travel time. When that's good, she's a spectacular party member. When you're fighting a bunch of enemies with armor, she's good for slightly faster biotic detonations and can have fun with a paladin, but she's much less valuable.

Unfortunately Liara cannot end a fight immediately with Stasis or Singularity, even if the former is in it's bubble form. It does indeed make melee enemies such as Phantoms and Husks easier, however a biotic detonation from Warp, Stasis, or Slam usually has greater range and does excellent damage too. Enemies simply spread themselves out too far to believe a single power can immediately end a fight.

Armor is also found on some of the most deadliest of enemies in the game. (Banshees, Atlas Mechs, Primes, and arguably Harvesters and Brutes) Liara's struggle against them greatly shines when you go into a mission with them (and there are plenty) and can't kill one fast enough because Warp just does not work well enough without guns as well. Stasis being pointless for Armored foes only make it worse. Garrus and Ashley with BWs will destroy one much faster than a Carnifex or Paladin. (though frankly they destroy everything the quickest that way alongside Particle Rifles) An Assault Rifle with the Armor Piercing Mod (particularly the Mattock, the Sabre comes very late but can work too) or a Sniper Rifle does a much better job than a pistol. I find killing the big foes quickly is vital. The best way to do that is through execution biotic detonations with powers that have the detonate effect (Warp, Slam, Throw) and through gunpower. Liara can do the former with Warp, but she cannot do the latter. Javik can do both just fine and Ashley/Garrus makes up for my lack of ability to deal with Shields. Therefore I have no need for Liara. I have probably overstated her survivability, but in the end it's just another reason I don't use her. I personally find another 500 HP valuable, or at least comforting.

...Also grenades one-shot squadmates? I'm sorry but I've seen plenty of my squadmates get hit by grenades when they're right next to them and not die instantly on Insanity. I have yet to be hit by them on Insanity and I know they instant kill on Multiplayer Gold, but for Singleplayer I have yet to see someone die instantly by grenades. And yes I am on Insanity. I checked that after seeing Garrus surviving a grenade.

[Arbitrarity]

Honest question for you here. I have the GPS at IV right now, and although I agree that it's really strong I've been having two problems with it
1. I find it hard to hit things at longer range (possibly due to lag)
2. I keep running out of ammo, especially when taking down brutes or banshees.

How do you make it work so well for you?

Not sure how you're having difficulty with longer ranges. Any range that an enemy is targettable with a power, you get the red reticle, which causes shots to home. At extreme ranges (all the way across maps; there's always one or two spots like this) you no longer get easy mode tracking, but then, even landing a single pellet does fairly solid damage. I try to avoid firing at THAT long a range with the GPS, though other guns (usually with scopes) do fine. You can usually close a bit, or find a better position to shoot from. I sometimes have trouble at close range, with weird enemy hitboxes, but again, you can usually avoid melee range encounters with the GPS, with its fire rate and damage.

Extended Barrel V, Spare Thermal Clip V. You get something like 47 reserve shots, clip of 5. You can run out of ammo in upper gold waves, though only once. Either blowing the consumable ammo pack (I have SO MANY OF THESE) or running for a box will solve that. Since you have a lower level GPS, you might practice conserving ammo with it a bit; partially charging shots to the extent that they don't quite eat two shots gives them substantially increased damage, though it delays your fire a bit. Even so, you should get a solid 38 or so reserve with a good Spare Thermal Clip V.

[SiuiS]

Xanatos has had this trouble (I had hype backlash and avoided using it for the longest time). Some shots just don't home. He's missed at point blank (possibly by having the shot home 'around' the target), long range (where the shots clumped like they were homing, but went straight and modded by a hair), and medium, just-out-of-normal-shotgun range where such weird things pellets spreading AROUND the target multiple times. Some of these are pure targeting issues, and we can assume the gun targeted something aside from the obvious enemy just like with vanguards.

From my few successful sojourns, treat it like a sniper weapon. Getting a couple good shots is about equal to getting that one great shot. Stay charged (and if infiltrator, charge, THEN cloak so you don't break camo), and whenever possible scope in, and fire from about four-twelve meters distant. Stick to aiming central mass. Don't rely on the homing function except occasionally to arc around/over cover; it never seems to work on purpose (or against the geth bunny hop!). And... You deal what, 45% damage a shot? I don't know if there is abortive able difference between acute/chronic damage. I think the full clip may do more damage without charging but can't remember the shots/charge or clip size. Something to investigate.

[Fawkes]

The most recent example was the human vanguard as a flamethrower

wait what

Flamethrower? How?

[Arbitrarity]

Xanatos has had this trouble (I had hype backlash and avoided using it for the longest time). Some shots just don't home. He's missed at point blank (possibly by having the shot home 'around' the target), long range (where the shots clumped like they were homing, but went straight and modded by a hair), and medium, just-out-of-normal-shotgun range where such weird things pellets spreading AROUND the target multiple times. Some of these are pure targeting issues, and we can assume the gun targeted something aside from the obvious enemy just like with vanguards.

From my few successful sojourns, treat it like a sniper weapon. Getting a couple good shots is about equal to getting that one great shot. Stay charged (and if infiltrator, charge, THEN cloak so you don't break camo), and whenever possible scope in, and fire from about four-twelve meters distant. Stick to aiming central mass. Don't rely on the homing function except occasionally to arc around/over cover; it never seems to work on purpose (or against the geth bunny hop!). And... You deal what, 45% damage a shot? I don't know if there is abortive able difference between acute/chronic damage. I think the full clip may do more damage without charging but can't remember the shots/charge or clip size. Something to investigate.

45% uncharged; 5 uncharged shots do 225% damage, 3 charged shots do 300% (you can charge fully with 1 ammo left in clip; good for conserving ammo). Charging screws you on cover though, so you need to either strafe high cover, have distractions, or don't charge. It's apparently a sliding scale though, so possibly you could get 60% from a partially charged shot eating 1 ammo or something. Not sure exactly how much you could get before it was 2 ammo.

Yeah, always aim for the chest area. The homing isn't huge, but as long as you're roughly on target, it'll track through simple movement. Hops and rolls are a bit of a problem, but few enemies roll just weapon fire. I also tend to use instantaneous staggers (Energy Drain, Overload) to prevent rolls.
I've had weird aiming problems at point blank, but at other ranges... I just fire again. Not a huge deal. It's consistent enough that it still outdamages most other options, especially considering how easy it is to use.

[Zevox]

It's the same thing from a different angle; I'm not saying guns should sway you, I'm saying lack of level shouldn't sway you.

It's pretty much the only real criteria the game gives me for judging how effective a character is likely to be. The difference in effectiveness between low, mid, and high level characters are huge and noticeable. Given that, I think it's entirely justifiable to expect that characters below a certain level just aren't going to be much use on the higher difficulties. Yes player skill or the player doing odd things could mitigate that, but I'm not going to assume that every level 1 player I get paired with is just that good or is doing something unusual with their character.

Untrue. Every human has exactly 500 shields, 500 health, the same speed, capacity, hitbox, and dodge skill, as wells melee damage. They have one skill of marginal effectiveness - marginal enough that yes, they are all comparable from a "does it improve your performance" point of view - and one point that cango into an equally marginal power or towards skewing the base statistics listed.

No, not true. What powers a character has is very important even at rank 1. Overload will still make dealing with shielded enemies easier even then. Throw will still be good for spamming against unprotected enemies even then. Charge will still allow you to fight in the manner Vanguards do even then (especially with the Krogan). Drone, Turret, and Decoy can still distract enemies even then. These things create substantial differences between classes right out of the gate, even when they're not instantly stripping protections or one-shot killing mooks.

The classes do not have definitive play styles; I would cite as evidence the continuous, broad applications of different focii during building and rebuilding. The most recent example was the human vanguard as a flamethrower; the numbers are there. The functionality is testable. Perform the test yourself before dismissing my (so far proven and tested) hypothesis.

I have listed continually different takes, builds and applications that I have found numerically viable. I have challenged people to try them. I have demonstrated - not stated, but actually demonstrated - that each class has a broad spectrum of applications. Until you can actually counter that, your assertion that a class should play as it is "intended" doesn't hold water.

And where exactly have you done this? Not in this conversation, that's for sure. If you're referring to unrelated conversations you've had here in the past, you can't simply assume that I or anyone else not directly involved in those has read them. I don't know about everyone else, but (when not engaged in direct conversations) I for one have a tendency to simply skim posts for topics that may interest me in the larger threads I post in, so that I don't end up spending too much time here.

And honestly, even if you do come up with alternative ways you could theoretically play the classes, so what? That won't make it common to run into players that use those. You can make some basic assumptions about how a player is likely to play based on the class he's using, simply by knowing the skill set each has. You're not going to run into many Infiltrators that don't use cloak, or Adepts that pack heavy weapons instead of using their powers, or Soldiers that spam Concussive Shot rather than using guns. Most players are going to go the obvious route with their classes, simply because it is obvious.

You don't play soldiers because you don't like the soldier play style. Would you use the soldier class, if it didn't come with the play style? Because according to someone else in this thread, Batavian soldiers do not have the soldier play style despite the soldier class name.

That assertion was based on the Ballistic Blades power that they have being quite potent, and thus the theory that you could just spam that. And while it is a powerful power going by its numbers, it's also a close-range one on a class that doesn't have Charge, and it's the only active power the class has (the others are a tech armor knock-off, which is passive once activated, and a grenade, which I can't aim to save my life), meaning that as a "caster" it would be extremely limited. I'll pass on that, thanks.

Zevox

[Xondoure]

Zevox, I think all we're really trying to say is that level is not the only thing the game gives you to judge a characters ability. The other one is weapons. So if a low level has crappy ranks in crappy guns, yeah, silver isn't for them. But if they're low level and have really good guns, you can reasonably expect them to at least carry their own weight. Likewise if a level twenty only had a rank I shrunken equipped and wasn't a soldier you would still expect them to do fine because of the powers available to them.

[SiuiS]

It's pretty much the only real criteria the game gives me for judging how effective a character is likely to be. The difference in effectiveness between low, mid, and high level characters are huge and noticeable. Given that, I think it's entirely justifiable to expect that characters below a certain level just aren't going to be much use on the higher difficulties. Yes player skill or the player doing odd things could mitigate that, but I'm not going to assume that every level 1 player I get paired with is just that good or is doing something unusual with their character.

I'm seeing it as a matter of scale. Instead of starting at zero trust, and increasing my estimation of my team mates based on class, race, equipment and level, as seems to be your stance; and starting at 50/50 where the variables go up and down afterward, as is the case for me. Unless I think they will actively harm my chances of success, which is hard, I leave people to learn their lesson.

No, not true. What powers a character has is very important even at rank 1. Overload will still make dealing with shielded enemies easier even then. Throw will still be good for spamming against unprotected enemies even then. Charge will still allow you to fight in the manner Vanguards do even then (especially with the Krogan). Drone, Turret, and Decoy can still distract enemies even then. These things create substantial differences between classes right out of the gate, even when they're not instantly stripping protections or one-shot killing mooks.

I still find the difference phenomenally low. Especially since the damage to shields from a level 1 overload us about equal to the damage to shields, armor and health from a good, of heavier, gun. Decoy, I'll give you; but sentry turret? Combat drone? About as distracting as concussive shot, proxy mine, carnage, warp, singularity, stasis, overload, energy drain, sabotage, reave, incinerate, cryoblast, or the like. The enemy stops shooting for a second or three. Then the target dies or you run away. The difference hasn't been staggering at all, unless you get into the high levels or tricks with them.

And where exactly have you done this? Not in this conversation, that's for sure. If you're referring to unrelated conversations you've had here in the past, you can't simply assume that I or anyone else not directly involved in those has read them.

I'm gonna stop you there and point out that A) I've referenced then several times, so yes in this conversation, and B) you've given feedback on these other posts so it's not like you're unfamiliar with them - especially as I try to reference them as much as I am able. Not having bothered to read the information I've talked about this whole time doesn't make out any less there, or any less pertinent.

And honestly, even if you do come up with alternative ways you could theoretically play the classes, so what? That won't make it common to run into players that use those. You can make some basic assumptions about how a player is likely to play based on the class he's using, simply by knowing the skill set each has. You're not going to run into many Infiltrators that don't use cloak, or Adepts that pack heavy weapons instead of using their powers, or Soldiers that spam Concussive Shot rather than using guns. Most players are going to go the obvious route with their classes, simply because it is obvious.

On the contrary, I've seen plenty of people who play 'unoptimal' builds with as much varying success as the 'standard' build. The only ones with stupid obvious routes are human vanguard and Krogan sentinel. Adepts with GPS, or whichever weapon most complements that players play style are rampant. The number of vanguards I've encountered who didn't constantly charge spam would be a little under 1 in 3.

And all of this aside; commonality is irrelevant. An obvious route is not the 'intended play style'. I'm sure geth farming wasn't supposed to be all the salarian was good for. Tech armor exploding was supposed to be worthwhile. Throw wasn't intended to replace a heavy pistol. With 200% being a bonus, I don't think they expected EVERY CLASS to try and stay at >180% and spam powers all the time. This is all common, doesn't make it designed default. Insisting classes should play the way you see them laid out is the way they are supposed to play belies all the options they give which would, in theory at least, be there to allow you specifically to vary your play style without feeling like you're 'doing it wrong'.

That assertion was based on the Ballistic Blades power that they have being quite potent, and thus the theory that you could just spam that. And while it is a powerful power going by its numbers, it's also a close-range one on a class that doesn't have Charge, and it's the only active power the class has (the others are a tech armor knock-off, which is passive once activated, and a grenade, which I can't aim to save my life), meaning that as a "caster" it would be extremely limited. I'll pass on that, thanks.

Zevox

Alright. It is a matter of preference, and it's not like I've used a batarian so...

-

Fawkes: the shockwave power had superior damage, range and status to the quarian's flamethrower. In exchange for not being able to throw it somewhere else, you get to chain stagger groups of enemies through walls. I brought it up and ran the numbers in response to "shockwave is the objectively worst power". I doubt I've convinced someone besides myself to try it though.

Arbitrarity: are you sure? I was positive the last charge didn't do enough damage... But it was always two shots in the charge so maybe we triggered the sliding scale and you only get full damage with a single remaining charge? This is anecdotal: Xanatos is a terrible scientist.

[Aotrs Commander]

It will be about a year though, unless the orthopedic surgeon is a miracle worker.

Ye gods, SiuiS, how much damage did you DO to yourself?

[James the Dark]

Since I have terrible twitch reflexes, I prefer to play 'casty', which means having a short recycle is the only way I'm worth anything on the squad. That goes right out the window after promote, though. Doubly so with krogan Vanguard, or krogan Sentinel. Them? I give 'em a couple of the heaviest guns around (usually a Javelin, because I like shooting through half the map) and run around punching things. Guns are for objective rounds anyway.

It's a matter of play-style. Nobody's right. I play casty. Hell, I have a level 14 soldier class, and I have never played as a soldier.

[polity4life]

I got my Commendation Pack.

It had the Hurricane.

What a horrible, horrible gun.

Lies sir! I love that thing. It's so easy to control and does great damage for a SMG. I put that on my Gethgineer and he performs really well on all difficulties.

What are your complaints with it?

[Yana]

I'd assume the recoil on the Hurricane would be the biggest grievance that anyone would have with it. Based on the few times I used it in sp, I recall it being unmanageable when trying to aimfire when not in cover as the recoil is incredibly excessive.

[polity4life]

The key is to adjust your aim as you fire. If you slowly aim lower as you fire, you aim roughly in the same spot. Larger targets, like Geth Primes approaching your console on Gold, can't help but to get hit in the head if you do this right. And once you get really good, you mulch Hunters and regular geth mooks. My only complaint with it is its low ammo capacity as you need mountains of rounds to hurt anything in Gold.

[ShinyRocks]

Yup, I just hate the muzzle climb on it.

The damage is great, but even on a Turian Soldier with maxed out stability bonus, it was still flying towards the ceiling the second I fired. (And scoped, it's just hilarious. Not that anyone would scope an SMG, but still.)

Adjusting downwards a bit is fine, and I've got accustomed to it, but the Hurricane needs too much, for me. Also, two bullets per shot burns through the ammo.

[thugthrasher]

And all of this aside; commonality is irrelevant. An obvious route is not the 'intended play style'. I'm sure geth farming wasn't supposed to be all the salarian was good for. Tech armor exploding was supposed to be worthwhile. Throw wasn't intended to replace a heavy pistol. With 200% being a bonus, I don't think they expected EVERY CLASS to try and stay at >180% and spam powers all the time. This is all common, doesn't make it designed default. Insisting classes should play the way you see them laid out is the way they are supposed to play belies all the options they give which would, in theory at least, be there to allow you specifically to vary your play style without feeling like you're 'doing it wrong'.

For the purposes of the "Is it acceptable to kick level 1s in Silver?" argument, commonality is EVERYTHING.

Your argument seems to be that IF someone plays "like a soldier" (using guns and not many powers) and IF they are as good with guns as they are with powers, then they should be just as good at level 1 with good guns as at higher levels with good powers. But that doesn't matter if most people encountered in random matches DON'T play level 1s like that and most people encountered in random matches AREN'T as good with guns as they are with powers.

I don't believe anyone in here has said that level 1s absolutely CAN'T be useful in Silver matches. I think the main argument is that they usually AREN'T. The reason they aren't is that most people don't fit one or the other of the criteria I posted above. They do what Zevox has said and play the classes like it 'looks' like they should be played.

When I see an adept using a Black Widow (at any level), I think that it's probably one of two things: a BAD player that doesn't know any better or a GOOD player that has a unique playstyle. Unfortunately, the former outnumber the latter, so I'm going to be a bit wary of them (exactly as I'd be a bit wary of a level 1). I'm not going to START a kick on them, but if I'm with a bunch of strangers and one or two of them want to kick them, I will do it (now, if they have a mic, I will often say something to them first, give them a chance to justify themselves, but I know that's something that most people won't do) and I completely understand WHY they want to kick them.

If you're in a group of less skilled people (you have no way of knowing before a match), then 1 worthless person CAN be the difference between winning and losing (it won't always, but it can). Many people don't have hours to throw at the game, so wasting 20-30 minutes to get to wave 9 and dying can be more frustrating than fun sometimes. So people don't want to take the chance that the stranger they are playing with is a well above average player (when, by definition, chances are they are NOT well above average).

[masterjoda99]

So, while I had initially planned my full-trilogy run with a new shepard to be an Adept, I am starting to consider going with sentinel for all 3 instead. But my question is, how does one best set up a powers-based sentinel in ME2 and ME3, rather than being basically a higher defense soldier relying on guns and tech armor alone?

[Starsign]

So, while I had initially planned my full-trilogy run with a new shepard to be an Adept, I am starting to consider going with sentinel for all 3 instead. But my question is, how does one best set up a powers-based sentinel in ME2 and ME3, rather than being basically a higher defense soldier relying on guns and tech armor alone?

In ME2, you should always use Tech Armor since it doesn't give any drawback to powers. (in fact it helps enforce power damage with the right upgrade) Throw and Cyro Blast come out not quite as good as Overload and Warp in ME2, so upgrade the latter two alongside Tech Armor. You'll be limited on guns till the Collector Ship however.

In ME3, things get complicated. Since Tech Armor now lowers cooldown rate, planning will have to be different. You CAN still have Tech Armor always up while power spamming, but you should get the cooldown penalty reduction passive from it's rank 6. From there it's all a matter of getting your cooldown bonus from weapons at 200% (or 172% if you are going for the Particle Rifle) and finding other ways to lower cooldown (Intel and Armor for example) until you reach a comfortable level. If you want to play a defensive Sentinel, getting Reave or Defense Matrix is a good idea for a bonus power; just be sure never to turn on DM and instead double click it for the shield recharge.

[Jasdoif]

In ME2, you should always use Tech Armor since it doesn't give any drawback to powers. (in fact it helps enforce power damage with the right upgrade)

That evolution is the key for a caster Sentinel. With that upgrade and either evolution of Defender, your Warps are stronger than an Adept's, and your Overloads are stronger than an Engineer's. (For the Defender evolution, I've run the numbers and Guardian ends up slightly ahead because it gives -30% cooldowns, but it's close enough that I think it's up to personal preference whether you want your powers to hit harder or hit more often.)

[SiuiS]

Ye gods, SiuiS, how much damage did you DO to yourself?

Broke the fifth metacarpal clean in twain by the base. Almost out through the back of my hand.
The kicker is the doctor assumed I broke my hand in a domestic dispute and purposefully did a bad job if fixing me up; splint before the x-rays were processed, poorly worded follow up advice (was told to call the orthopedist after ten days, not within ten days). So I will need surgery if I want to keep my MT license.

For the purposes of the "Is it acceptable to kick level 1s in Silver?" argument, commonality is EVERYTHING.

Your argument seems to be that IF someone plays "like a soldier" (using guns and not many powers) and IF they are as good with guns as they are with powers, then they should be just as good at level 1 with good guns as at higher levels with good powers. But that doesn't matter if most people encountered in random matches DON'T play level 1s like that and most people encountered in random matches AREN'T as good with guns as they are with powers.

I don't believe anyone in here has said that level 1s absolutely CAN'T be useful in Silver matches. I think the main argument is that they usually AREN'T. The reason they aren't is that most people don't fit one or the other of the criteria I posted above. They do what Zevox has said and play the classes like it 'looks' like they should be played.

When I see an adept using a Black Widow (at any level), I think that it's probably one of two things: a BAD player that doesn't know any better or a GOOD player that has a unique playstyle. Unfortunately, the former outnumber the latter, so I'm going to be a bit wary of them (exactly as I'd be a bit wary of a level 1). I'm not going to START a kick on them, but if I'm with a bunch of strangers and one or two of them want to kick them, I will do it (now, if they have a mic, I will often say something to them first, give them a chance to justify themselves, but I know that's something that most people won't do) and I completely understand WHY they want to kick them.

If you're in a group of less skilled people (you have no way of knowing before a match), then 1 worthless person CAN be the difference between winning and losing (it won't always, but it can). Many people don't have hours to throw at the game, so wasting 20-30 minutes to get to wave 9 and dying can be more frustrating than fun sometimes. So people don't want to take the chance that the stranger they are playing with is a well above average player (when, by definition, chances are they are NOT well above average).

This is all well and good, but terribly pessimistic.
A silver match can be won by two okay players who aren't stupid.
The remaining two can be raging gits and it does not actually cost you anything.

I had a nice way to frame it, but I've forgotten it in the interim. I find discarding someone playing a cooperative game because you aren't good enough to pull off what they're doing distasteful. I'll boot someone who's rude in the lobby. I'll drop out of a game and invite the useful members if I get a camper in the corner, but unless I'm on gold and trying to accomplish something specific, I'm not going to drop a level 1. Heck. Three waves and a couple polite comments helped rocket an N7 1 level 1 to the top of the leader board. I'd rather help someone else than get irate because they can't help me.

[Aotrs Commander]

Broke the fifth metacarpal clean in twain by the base. Almost out through the back of my hand.
The kicker is the doctor assumed I broke my hand in a domestic dispute and purposefully did a bad job if fixing me up; splint before the x-rays were processed, poorly worded follow up advice (was told to call the orthopedist after ten days, not within ten days). So I will need surgery if I want to keep my MT license.

I...

... Seriously, I just don't know what to say.

That... is just unbelievable.

I mean... wow. That's... Suck barely begins to describe it.

(How did you actually manage to do it? I have a feeling I might have asked you once already, but I've been fighting computer viruses for about four hours and I can for the unlife of me bring it to mind...)

Noting that doctor down on my "will have intestines removed while on fire" list, though. That sort of behavior is completely inexcusable.

[Corvus]

The weekly balance updated has been delayed, with no word on when exactly it will go out, just as soon as possible.

They did say that they would be buffing a few powers, including Shockwave, Lift Grenades, Marksman and Adrenaline Rush.

[Partof1]

I love the Geth Shotgun. Just unlocked it today, and now my Quarian Infiltrator won't run anything else.

And I'm enjoying the Carnifex on the Asari Adept. Phalanx seems to be the preferred option, but I like my 6 shooter.

Good day for unlocks, bad day for disconnections. Stupid internet.

[Zevox]

I'm seeing it as a matter of scale. Instead of starting at zero trust, and increasing my estimation of my team mates based on class, race, equipment and level, as seems to be your stance; and starting at 50/50 where the variables go up and down afterward, as is the case for me. Unless I think they will actively harm my chances of success, which is hard, I leave people to learn their lesson.

That's the thing - as far as I'm concerned, bringing a level 1 along on silver or above does actively harm my chances. Most players are playing much higher level characters, whether due to not promoting as in my case or because when you do promote you zip through the low levels quickly no matter what difficulty you play on. Silver is a more challenging difficulty, not suited to level 1s in most circumstances, so I'm not a fan of bringing them along. Maybe three good players of a decent level can carry a level 1 through Silver, but that's still an extra risk I have no reason to take, particularly when the level 1 can always just use bronze.

I'm gonna stop you there and point out that A) I've referenced then several times, so yes in this conversation, and B) you've given feedback on these other posts so it's not like you're unfamiliar with them - especially as I try to reference them as much as I am able.

Re: A) - Only in the past couple of posts, the first of which being the one that left me baffled due to you not having brought it up before, so no.

Re: B) When ? I seriously do not recall doing any such thing.

Not having bothered to read the information I've talked about this whole time doesn't make out any less there, or any less pertinent.

It being "out there" doesn't mean I'm aware of or have read it. Thus the need for you to establish this sort of thing in new conversations like this.

On the contrary, I've seen plenty of people who play 'unoptimal' builds with as much varying success as the 'standard' build. The only ones with stupid obvious routes are human vanguard and Krogan sentinel. Adepts with GPS, or whichever weapon most complements that players play style are rampant. The number of vanguards I've encountered who didn't constantly charge spam would be a little under 1 in 3.

Weirdly, I've seen the reverse - rarely do I see most classes doing anything unexpected, but I've encountered enough Vanguards that act like Soldiers, ignoring Charge and just using guns (plus Stasis on Asari and Carnage on Krogan), even sniper rifles occasionally, to be unsure of whether any given Vanguard I run into is going to be actually useful (the Soldier-Vanguards I've seen by and large haven't been).

And all of this aside; commonality is irrelevant.

As thugthrasher said, it is entirely relevant given this conversation is based on the question of how we deal with level 1s trying to get into Silver games. Until you've actually played with any given player you can't judge their skill, so level, race, and class is just about all you have to go on. Knowing how that race and class are generally played is thus kind of important.

This is all well and good, but terribly pessimistic.

I'd call it more realistic myself.

Zevox

[Fawkes]

Broke the fifth metacarpal clean in twain by the base. Almost out through the back of my hand.
The kicker is the doctor assumed I broke my hand in a domestic dispute and purposefully did a bad job if fixing me up; splint before the x-rays were processed, poorly worded follow up advice (was told to call the orthopedist after ten days, not within ten days). So I will need surgery if I want to keep my MT license.

Yeah, I'd say you have a pretty good malpractice lawsuit, there.

[Anarion]

Yup, I just hate the muzzle climb on it.

The damage is great, but even on a Turian Soldier with maxed out stability bonus, it was still flying towards the ceiling the second I fired. (And scoped, it's just hilarious. Not that anyone would scope an SMG, but still.)

Adjusting downwards a bit is fine, and I've got accustomed to it, but the Hurricane needs too much, for me. Also, two bullets per shot burns through the ammo.

Actually, I did try it out scoped for one game, just for kicks. It's sort of like trying to hold down a bucking bronco. Even in cover you can't hold it still. Do not recommend unless you just want to mess around for some reason.

Broke the fifth metacarpal clean in twain by the base. Almost out through the back of my hand.
The kicker is the doctor assumed I broke my hand in a domestic dispute and purposefully did a bad job if fixing me up; splint before the x-rays were processed, poorly worded follow up advice (was told to call the orthopedist after ten days, not within ten days). So I will need surgery if I want to keep my MT license.

What in the world did you do to cause that? It sounds agonizingly painful, although it's probably just as likely that your hand was totally numb the whole time.

This is all well and good, but terribly pessimistic.
A silver match can be won by two okay players who aren't stupid.
The remaining two can be raging gits and it does not actually cost you anything.

I had a nice way to frame it, but I've forgotten it in the interim. I find discarding someone playing a cooperative game because you aren't good enough to pull off what they're doing distasteful. I'll boot someone who's rude in the lobby. I'll drop out of a game and invite the useful members if I get a camper in the corner, but unless I'm on gold and trying to accomplish something specific, I'm not going to drop a level 1. Heck. Three waves and a couple polite comments helped rocket an N7 1 level 1 to the top of the leader board. I'd rather help someone else than get irate because they can't help me.

Huh, well I'm weird here I guess. I'm definitely not as good as you. Primarily, I tend to take positions that are safe from one angle, tunnel vision for a bit and then get shot in the back at point blank range sometimes. But I wouldn't kick the level 1 silver guy, even though it might cause me to lose since I do tend to die a few times during silver matches. I might switch classes though, probably to Asari adept or Salarian engineer if I thought that I would need to carry the team more.

Yeah, I'd say you have a pretty good malpractice lawsuit, there.

Depends on how he knows that the doc thought it was domestic violence.

[Yana]

We should probably drop that subject, guys. It's starting to stray into legal advice.

Even so, good lord that is unfortunate, SiuiS.

Edit: it's also almost time for thread 6 title suggestions! Here's one:

Mass Effect 3.6: I Am Urdnot Wrex, And This Is MY thread!

I'm sure I'll come up with more once I wake up.

[LordShotGun]

Mass Effect 3.6 Bioware thinks this game is perfect!

[Sanguine]

Mass Effect 3.6: My name is Garrus Vakarian, and this is now my favorite thread on the Citadel.

Also here's something I came up with a few days ago in an idle moment and felt like sharing.

The Spectre Your Bondmate Could Smell Like

Spoiler

Show

Hello Asari. Look at your bondmate, now back to me, now back at you bondmate, now back to me. Sadly, they're not me. But if they stopped using Batarian scented body wash and switched to Old Spice they could smell like they're me. Look down, now back up. Where are you? You're on the Normandy with the Spectre your Bondmate could smell like. What's that you have in your hand? I've got it. It's an omnitool with two tickets to that thing you love. The tickets are now eezo! Anything's possible when you smell like Old Spice and not a Batarian. I'm on a Kakliosaur.