Voldur: Half-elf, half-orc (3.5) If you read it, you'll want to play it. Promise.

[Empedocles]

Really? Thanks! Much appreciated.

If you do it PbP PM me and I'll make time to participate.

[danzibr]

Yeah it'll be PbP right here. I'll let you know when I open the recruiting thread. In fact, it might be sooner than a month or two. I'm working on maps as we speak and already know what I want to happen, just have to fill in the details.

[Just to Browse]

Not sure if anyone has said this, but this is way stronger than most races. You get +2 to fighting stats, -2 to what are basically dump stats, then skill bonuses and a very powerful maneuver that you'll probably spam every round.

This is strictly better than both the elf and the orc, and even edges out the human a fair bit.

[Lord_Gareth]

Not sure if anyone has said this, but this is way stronger than most races. You get +2 to fighting stats, -2 to what are basically dump stats, then skill bonuses and a very powerful maneuver that you'll probably spam every round.

This is strictly better than both the elf and the orc, and even edges out the human a fair bit.

By "dump stats" you of course mean, "Two of the most significant stats in the game", right? Physical ability scores mean much, much less than mental ones.

[eftexar]

I would also be inclined to say that it is fine even if it is a bit more powerful, which it probably is. I think you have to compare it with his other races and not the PH races (if just barely). Still I have to agree with gareth on the ability bonus not being that big of deal here.
Steel wind takes a move action to recover, so I would think that sacrificing mobility would prevent spamming. If the enemy stands there clustered for several rounds in a row then that is the enemies fault. Besides spellcasters already have area of effects I'm sure.

[Just to Browse]

By "dump stats" you of course mean, "Two of the most significant stats in the game", right? Physical ability scores mean much, much less than mental ones.

... did you just call Charisma one of the most significant stats in the game?

[Lord_Gareth]

... did you just call Charisma one of the most significant stats in the game?

Yep. It controls the save DCs of huge numbers of SLAs, is the key casting stat for many classes, is the easiest ability score to add to any value on your character sheet (often multiple times), controls the most powerful and versatile skills in the game (Bluff, Diplomacy, Use Magic Device), and much, much more.

Strength and Dex get you....carrying capacity, tiny to-hit and damage bonuses, Hide, Move Silently, and Jump. Can you see the difference?

[Morph Bark]

... did you just call Charisma one of the most significant stats in the game?

Off the top of my head I can think of fifteen builds that heavily rely on Charisma and only four that rely on Strength and three that rely on Dexterity. And at least one of each out of the Str and Dex builds is easily outdone by an Int build, Wis build or Cha build.

Con is the physical stat that matters most and Int is the mental stat that matters most, but Cha can be made to trump both of them in a build, easily.

[Answerer]

The half-elf/half-orc is cool idea, the write-up is solid, and the like; it's a good showing.

But it still seems like a fairly typical race. I would say that I don't like its ability modifiers largely because it pigeonholes the race very badly, but that's about it. Use of Steel Wind is interesting, though using the Warblade recovery mechanic strikes me as awkward since I'm not sure how that's supposed to interact with a Voldur initiator.


Also, yes, Int and Cha are probably much more valuable than Dex or Str. Con... not so much. Con's pretty much the only ability that everyone needs (barring Faerie Mysteries Initiate).

[danzibr]

Oh man I had a great idea. I think. With the talk of Voldur being a strong LA+0, why not make two versions? Like we have Githzerai and Githyanki, Goblins and Hobgoblins. Maybe you can do a regular and greater Voldur. Like how when a horse and donkey breed if the horse is the mother you get a mule but otherwise you get something else. Maybe when the Orc is the mom you get a big beefy one and when the Elf is the mom you get something more graceful. And one has a LA.

Just a suggestion.

[Answerer]

There is absolutely no way the Voldur qualifies as "too strong".

[danzibr]

There is absolutely no way the Voldur qualifies as "too strong".

Is that a response to my post somewhere? I didn't type "too strong" anywhere.

[Answerer]

OK, or "a strong LA+0." It's got nothing on Human, Strongheart Halfling, Warforged, or Whisper Gnome, for instance.

[danzibr]

OK, or "a strong LA+0." It's got nothing on Human, Strongheart Halfling, Warforged, or Whisper Gnome, for instance.

Yeah, comparison is totally the way to go. Excellent point, Answerer, I was just busy being a noob. I think this calls for... a buffing up of the Voldur. If Vilpich wishes.

So then how to do this? Pigeonhole it more badly or give it more versatility? Keeping the flavor in mind, of course.

I still like the making two versions.

[Veklim]

Like how when a horse and donkey breed if the horse is the mother you get a mule but otherwise you get something else.

It's called a Jenny, and there are recorded occurrences of them being able to birth live offspring (as far as I'm aware it's exceptionally rare, but has happened).

[willpell]

[*]Steel Wind: A voldur can use the steel wind maneuver as a warblade with levels equal to his HD. This means that, as standard action, the voldur can make two attacks at his highest base attack bonus, but against two different foes that he threatens. The voldur can recover this maneuver (gain the ability to use it again) as a move action.

This seems much more reasonable than Whirlwind Attack, but please clue in the non-TOB readers as to what "as a warblade with levels = HD" means in this case. The "this means that" doesn't make it sound as if this ability has or needs any level-dependent variables. Seems like you're just copying the line they put in all spell-like abilities. Are there such things as "maneuver-like abilities"? How would those be different than just "abilities", given that (AFAIK) maneuvers are supposed to represent the work of intense training, more than they do anything supernatural?

(Also I like how the move action recovery means that you can basically just stand there making something akin to a full attack, unless you're BAB 11+, that doesn't actually count as one. It seems fitting somehow. I think I have officially decided to put these guys into the game, though I don't know if I like calling them voldur.)

[danzibr]

It's called a Jenny, and there are recorded occurrences of them being able to birth live offspring (as far as I'm aware it's exceptionally rare, but has happened).

Ahh thank you. I would've looked it up earlier but I was posting from my phone.

I've heard of mules on the rare occasion also being fertile. Interesting.

[Veklim]

Apologies, it's Hinny (male horse, female donkey), not Jenny (a female donkey). Forever mixing those two!

There have apparently been over 60 documented cases of fertile horse/donkey hybrids, but they are always female, the males seem to be exclusively sterile.

On a slightly more related topic (i.e. referring to the post, sorry!) I'd be careful about introducing anything which differentiates between genders in any mechanical way (even mere lineage issues). The socio-political fallout in the forum could be intense, and whereas there's plenty of evidence to support strengths/weaknesses inherent in both genders, it's not commonly seen as a reasonable topic of discussion outside of those with enough scientific and social grounding to understand there's no discrimination involved in the observations. In short, people think it's sexist

[danzibr]

Yeah... perhaps trying to stress it's strictly a biological point of view could help. Or maybe you can just do something like, "Occasionally, a beefy Voldur is born." Kind of like a Dragonwrought Kobold.

I think I'll take a closer look at the race's current mechanics compared with the golden standard of LA +0 races and Elf and Orc.

[Veklim]

I think I'll take a closer look at the race's current mechanics compared with the golden standard of LA +0 races and Elf and Orc.

I seriously hope the above comment was intended to drip with sarcasm!

The idea of a rarer 'super' Voldur a la dragonwrought is a nice idea actually, but I'd be really tempted to give them some sort of mental instability to balance out the power hike. At least that way you could do it with a 1st level only feat option without the dragonwrought power-hike issue.

[Answerer]

I seriously hope the above comment was intended to drip with sarcasm!

The statement was "golden standard" and "elf and orc." I.e. the union of those two sets, which also implies that the elf and orc are not among the gold standard (which they certainly are not).

The overwhelming majority of LA +0 choices (and, sadly, LA +1 choices too) offer little-to-nothing to a character who is higher level than about 5. The ability boosts are nice but at most it's just a +1 to hit/damage, +1 to Save DCs, and/or +1 HP/level. Most racial features are useless. The Voldur's is not useless per se, but it is a low-level option. Probably more useful than a 1st-level SLA the way some races have, but I wouldn't go much further than that.

In this scheme, the Bonus Feat stands apart, because that can make a ton of difference to any character. Sure, you get the feat at 1st, but it can serve as a prerequisite for something, which gets you started on feat chains earlier, allows easier and potentially earlier entry into PrCs, and combos coming together at a lower level. This is huge.

Other considerations are things like useful immunities (Warforged and Necropolitan have a lot of those, for instance), natural attacks (like Warforged, Kobolds, or Poison Dusk Lizardfolk), or particularly extreme and potent specialization (the Whisper Gnome being the ideal stealthy race in every conceivable way).

Or, ya know. Being a Kobold.


So, the real question for Vilpich is whether or not he wants the Voldur to be one of the "contenders," or just another of the myriad races that don't really offer enough to be considered in most builds (from a purely mechanical perspective; I'm not trying to deny how cool they are). If he does, they need somewhat more.

[Veklim]

Aye, mis-read the post. I honestly though danzibr was calling elves and orcs 'golden standard LA+0, lol!

One of my favourite examples of a racial ability which stays relevant has to be the Raptoran's flight. Even though the race is a little lack-lustre, and almost entirely pointless outside of flavour if there's any sort of spellcasting allowed in the game, I still think the basis of 'the higher your level, the better your racial bonus becomes' is a wonderful one to go with. I've toyed with the idea of using HD-scaling racial benefits so many times, but never seem to get around to actually building them! The first thought I had many years ago now was giving orcs a scaling melee attack and damage bonus (+1/5 HD), not a lot, but still more useful than a one-time +1 to hit and damage.

I can't argue with the bonus feat thing at all, I'm well aware of the power of a bonus feat (like early entry shenanigans or the ability to take 2 different '1st level only' feats, which are often rather nice indeed), and the warforged/kobold issues connected with racial feats have been happily documented several times over, with dragonwrought being the biggest offender of the lot. I would like to point out the slight dichotomy of this particular part of the argument though, because shifters have a similar feat support, and wildly varying options at any build level, and yet they're still considered sub-standard in many respects (I personally think they're great, but I do see the issues).

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned immunities, natural attacks and uber-specialisations though. These are the things which make certain races immeasurably superior to their LA counterparts. Wouldn't it be lovely if all the PHB races got a scaling benefit (except humans of course, dirty blighters that they are!)?! Subtle hint.....

[Answerer]

Oooh, Raptoran, and that reminds me, Dragonborn. Those are also LA +0 races whose features continue to matter as a character grows. Good call.

As for scaling races, the Kalashtar come to mind immediately. And while we're on that subject, the Elan are a decent race and both Half-Giants and Goliaths can make a serious case for that LA +1.


But just having racial feats isn't enough; they have to be good racial feats. The Warforged feats (more immunities, free Adamantine Full-Plate, another natural attack) are excellent. The Shifter feats are mostly pretty meh. Mostly, Shifters are less-than-a-race while unshifted, but only slightly-better-than-a-normal-race (and not even a gold standard race) while they are. The problem is that Shifting is extremely limited, and Shifter feats only increase the amount of time you can spend Shifted very slightly.

[Veklim]

So, in that vein, what would happen if you made the Voldur's Steel Wind ability scale with BAB...? So for every iterative attack you gain, you may attack another target (+6 BAB grants 3 targets, +11 grants 4, etc...)?

[willpell]

In short, people think it's sexist

Yes people think that; it doesn't mean they're right, and my $0.02USD is that you shouldn't let a few excessively sensitive and quick-to-complain types bully you out of doing whatever you find artistically correct, Vilpich. Saying that all voldur males have higher Strength than all voldur females would not make you the ultimate champion of patriarchal oppression, even though there are those who will do their best to convince you that it does. Non carborundum.

I still think the basis of 'the higher your level, the better your racial bonus becomes' is a wonderful one to go with.

I have a set of homebrew races whose racially favored skill gets +Level instead of a flat +2; I thought it seemed way overpowered, since you can have double the ranking anyone else is capable of. But I'll consider this a vote for leaving it as-is for the moment.

[Veklim]

Perhaps 2+ (1/2 HD) might be a little more balanced, but in essence it's exactly what I'm talking about, aye!

[danzibr]

I was gong to start doing a ton of multi-quotes, but... doesn't seem necessary.

Right, I wasn't saying Elf and Orc are the good LA +0 races. I was saying look at the good LA +0 races and then throw in the flavor of Elf and Orc. Combining those three things ought to be a good Voldur, I think.

As for the super Voldur, I wasn't really talking about a feat, just using Dragonwrought Kobolds as an example. Probably Goblin -> Hobgoblin would be a better example. Or something more distant, like Goliath -> Feral Gargun (or whatever it's called, and even then that one's quite a stretch).

I'm still a fan of the mother-father/father-mother thing.

[Just to Browse]

Yep. It controls the save DCs of huge numbers of SLAs, is the key casting stat for many classes, is the easiest ability score to add to any value on your character sheet (often multiple times), controls the most powerful and versatile skills in the game (Bluff, Diplomacy, Use Magic Device), and much, much more.

Strength and Dex get you....carrying capacity, tiny to-hit and damage bonuses, Hide, Move Silently, and Jump. Can you see the difference?

It controls save DCs... of classes that aren't melee. It is the key casting stat... for classes that aren't melee. It's not a required stat for any save, attack, or for your armor class, and it controls 2 social skills that are highly controversial, and a skill you might get if you're a skillmonkey (which isn't going to optimize for strength).

Strength and Dexterity will improve your to-hit bonus for melee AND ranged, your damage, your armor class, and your reflex. Can you see the difference?

[willpell]

That might matter if 3.5 didn't hate melee with a fiery unquenchable passion....

[Just to Browse]

That might matter if 3.5 didn't hate melee with a fiery unquenchable passion....

A Tier 4 voldur melee character will dump two stats and gain bonuses to two other stats, and also get a double attack every round capitalizing on one of those bonus stats, and be much much better than a star elf warlock or gray elf warmage. Yes, yes it does matter. Literally doubling your attack output every round with a permanent racial bonus to both attacks is HUGE.