Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

[polity4life]

Indeed. The reason the Geth are destroyed, AFAIK, is because they directly injected Reaper AI parts into themselves. EDI is, despite being based in part on reaper tech, fundamentally a human design.

I'm going with Aotrs on this, for what it's worth. I'm not sold that the Geth are destroyed with the Destroy option since their "upgrades" only worked after Geth technology made them work. They fundamentally changed how the code, programs, etc. worked by adding the sum of the parts that was Legion. That seems to run parallel with arguments about EDI surviving since she too fundamentally ceased to be Reaper tech at some point.

Anyway, I just have to say that this thread is great. The regular posters here do really well on keeping the community informed about new happenings. Thanks to you folk who scour teh interwebz and bring us updates.

[Morty]

Does the Starkid actually say that only Reaper tech will be destroyed? As far as I remember, it says that all synthetics will be destroyed. So I'm not really sure how EDI is supposed to survive.
Funny thing, by the way - when I finished ME3, I was somewhat ambivalent about the ending. The more I thought about it, the less I liked it until I decided there's nothing ambivalent about it and it just makes no ever-loving sense.

[Avilan the Grey]

Does the Starkid actually say that only Reaper tech will be destroyed? As far as I remember, it says that all synthetics will be destroyed.

It might be that "he" don't know there is a difference; in "his" experience all AI has been directly based on Reaper tech I am sure.

[Aotrs Commander]

It might be that "he" don't know there is a difference; in "his" experience all AI has been directly based on Reaper tech I am sure.

For that matter, there's no reason for the Catalyst to have any clue about the Geth's recent transformation or to know whether or not it will affect them.

Unless it's mind-reading (which is highly possible, givien it's choice of avatar, unless anyone is suggesting that the aliens who created the Citidel happened to look exactly like human children...!) and if it is, then once again, everything it is doing is suspect.

[Psyren]

Hmmmm. I looked for it as well and couldn't find one. But we already have word of god that she survived right?

The problem: That Word of God is from Jessica Merizan, who has made mistakes before (she once claimed the planet the Normandy crashed on was Mars, then redacted her mistake later.) Weekes also said some parts of his "interview" were false but wouldn't say which ones.

I think the problem with finding videos of EDI surviving is that she has to be a "favoured squadmate", (which I assumed to mean "has been used often by the player") and I suspect that's probably not common, as she's a only moderately powerful, so there's no reason to use her for simply mechanical superiority if you aren't a big EDI fan and b) somewhat falling in the wayside on a character level with all the other old favourites. (I used her on like, two missions tops.)

People tried that, she still wouldn't step out.
They even tried with a FailShep (Garrus + Tali dead, Virmire Survivor shot, Javik not recruited - which would only leave Liara, James and Edi - and no matter how little Liara was used she and James stepped out.)

Then someone reportedly tried making EDI the only squadmate via Gibbed - this reportedly resulted in the dead Virmire squadmate stepping out instead.)

[Morty]

It might be that "he" don't know there is a difference; in "his" experience all AI has been directly based on Reaper tech I am sure.

Given how little we actually know of the Catalyst - close to nothing, really - I suppose it could be a working explanation.
Unless, of course, the whole thing with EDI surviving is some sort of mistake.

[Aotrs Commander]

People tried that, she still wouldn't step out.
They even tried with a FailShep (Garrus + Tali dead, Virmire Survivor shot, Javik not recruited - which would only leave Liara, James and Edi - and no matter how little Liara was used she and James stepped out.)

Then someone reportedly tried making EDI the only squadmate via Gibbed - this reportedly resulted in the dead Virmire squadmate stepping out instead.)

*shrug*

Could be a glitch on one of the platforms, then, that the odd person has seen her (it was the ME wiki that first said it was possible, and some folks claim to have seen it, so there is a modest chance it's not a complete fabrication.) I'm pretty sure that even it wasn't a glitch, it would have been an oversight on Bioware's part in any case. (At this point, I'm more inclined to believe it's rare bug by Bioware than people are outright lying; but then again, it's not impossible, and you do get the impression that some of the Bioware people have no clue what they're talking about with regards to the ending.)



However, until I have seen some proof of the Catalyst's claims, from the information that Bioware presented us within the game as released, I have no reason to believe the Catalyst was telling the truth; or even if it thought it was, that would have been able to make that determination without knowledge of EDI and the Geth specifically.

(After all on the face of it, the three solutions seem a bit dodgey in scope - Control affects only the Reapers, and damages the relays, destruction affects all synthetics and destroys the relays and synthesis affects every living creature in the entire galaxy on a fundemental genetic level. Seems a bit of a contradicting to me. It just reeks of manipulation.)

[Psyren]

Oh, I'm not saying there's no chance of manipulation... but I couldn't bring my Shepard to gamble the Geth's lives on it is all.

[Aotrs Commander]

Oh, I'm not saying there's no chance of manipulation... but I couldn't bring my Shepard to gamble the Geth's lives on it is all.

To be fair, I didn't either, the first time. Not murdering EDI and Geth was a big reason I choose Green Explosion the first time.

But the more I sat back and thought about the ending afterwards, the less and less I like the implications of Synthesis.

(In fact, I'm starting to wonder if control wasn't quite as bad an option as I first thought, considering it damages the relays less overall.)

[Psyren]

Really, my only problem with Control is how vague it is. Clarification could easily make it the number one choice for me.

(Though I still am a fan of Synthesis' potential for rapid transhumanization.)

[TheLaughingMan]

Really, my only problem with Control is how vague it is.

The other problem is that, not twenty minutes ago, you were trying to convince TIM it couldn't work with fairly reasonable arguments.

[Dienekes]

The other problem is that, not twenty minutes ago, you were trying to convince TIM it couldn't work with fairly reasonable arguments.

Ehh, I took it more that: Dude, controlling the Reapers is secondary, we need to win, not waste resources trying to control them that probably doesn't even work. Then later: dude you just sent the Citadel right into the Reaper's main hold in the galaxy, you're obviously indoctrinated you aren't going to control anyone, just let me finish this.

Then you find out that control is actually just as easy as destroy, if not better if you factor in the Geth lives. Given the full information, it really doesn't bother me that my Shepard changed his tune, as knew information is prone to do.

[Psyren]

The other problem is that, not twenty minutes ago, you were trying to convince TIM it couldn't work with fairly reasonable arguments.

Just because TIM wanted it doesn't make it bad. After all, TIM thought EDI was a good idea too, and she very clearly was.

[Morty]

Really, my only problem with Control is how vague it is.

You could describe the whole ending and all three choices that way, really. We're told very little about anything. For that reason, I've always abstained from debating the three choices because frankly, they all have equally little meaning to them.

[Psyren]

You could describe the whole ending and all three choices that way, really. We're told very little about anything. For that reason, I've always abstained from debating the three choices because frankly, they all have equally little meaning to them.

While that is true, there isn't much vague about "destroy all synthetic life, including the Geth."

[Morty]

Yeah, that one is very straightforward, granted. It's the other two that tell us practically nothing. I picked Destroy when I first finished the game pretty much because I had no idea what on earth the other two are about. That justification also works in-game for my RenegadeShep, I guess.

[Psyren]

More Extended Cut goodies: Raphael Sbarge (aka Kaidan Alenko) is recording additional lines today.

Given that he's (a) a love-interest, and (b) a totally optional squadmate for the ending (since he can die before then even within ME3), I grow more hopeful for EC by the second

(He's MY love-interest too!)

[Aotrs Commander]

More Extended Cut goodies: Raphael Sbarge (aka Kaidan Alenko) is recording additional lines today.

Given that he's (a) a love-interest, and (b) a totally optional squadmate for the ending (since he can die before then even within ME3), I grow more hopeful for EC by the second

(He's MY love-interest too!)

48: Kaiden and Ashley's new content for the EC is whichever one died on Virmire coming back as a glowing light thing and doing nothing more than floating around and going "Hey Shepard! Hey Shepard!" until it drives everyone spare.

[Beowulf DW]

More Extended Cut goodies: Raphael Sbarge (aka Kaidan Alenko) is recording additional lines today.

Given that he's (a) a love-interest, and (b) a totally optional squadmate for the ending (since he can die before then even within ME3), I grow more hopeful for EC by the second

(He's MY love-interest too!)

Well that's encouraging. Maybe they can at least manage to get this train wreck back on the rails.

[Derthric]

48: Kaiden and Ashley's new content for the EC is whichever one died on Virmire coming back as a glowing light thing and doing nothing more than floating around and going "Hey Shepard! Hey Shepard!" until it drives everyone spare.

Catalyst should have been the Virmire death. They banked on people's sympathy carrying over from duct-boy into the Catalyst. All he was to me was a great big sign hung on any sequence saying "boring crud" like the forced PTSD dreams.

[Trazoi]

Catalyst should have been the Virmire death. They banked on people's sympathy carrying over from duct-boy into the Catalyst. All he was to me was a great big sign hung on any sequence saying "boring crud" like the forced PTSD dreams.

Did anyone care about Duct-boy more than a generic, that's-kinda-sad, kind of way? It was so clumsily done at all stages: Duct-boy in the middle of random chaos at the very beginning, the PTSD dreams, and Starkid. They might as well added a flashing sign saying "Feel Sad Now". Or replaced Duct-boy with a box of kittens.

Everyone suggests replacing Duct-boy with the Virmire non-survivor, because it's so frickin' obvious. During those dream sequences hearing the voices of the lost crew was the part that made it moving. Chasing after Duct-boy wasn't moving, it was playing tag in treacle.

[Aotrs Commander]

Did anyone care about Duct-boy more than a generic, that's-kinda-sad, kind of way? It was so clumsily done at all stages: Duct-boy in the middle of random chaos at the very beginning, the PTSD dreams, and Starkid. They might as well added a flashing sign saying "Feel Sad Now". Or replaced Duct-boy with a box of kittens.

Everyone suggests replacing Duct-boy with the Virmire non-survivor, because it's so frickin' obvious. During those dream sequences hearing the voices of the lost crew was the part that made it moving. Chasing after Duct-boy wasn't moving, it was playing tag in treacle.

Yeah, my only involvement into those sequence was to try and figure out what ham-handed "artistic" thing they were trying to lead up to...

[LordShotGun]

Everyone suggests replacing Duct-boy with the Virmire non-survivor, because it's so frickin' obvious. During those dream sequences hearing the voices of the lost crew was the part that made it moving. Chasing after Duct-boy wasn't moving, it was playing tag in treacle.

This. The first dream sequence was just boring but the one right after Mordin died was at least somewhat moving when you started to hear him say his line "Someone else might have gotten it wrong."

[Morty]

Eh, I didn't the dreams to be bad. The players might not have had much attachment to the duct-boy, but I can see him becoming a sort of symbol of all the people on Earth Shepard couldn't save in the Commander's head. And the dreams themselves were a moderately effective, if cliched, way of showing Shepard's psyche finally starting to crack under the pressure.
Still, all this doesn't change the fact that making the Catalyst take the form of the boy made no sense and whatever effect it was intended to have, it failed. Frankly, I have a nagging feeling that the real reason the Catalyst looked the way it did was because they were in a hurry.
The worst part though is that there's no explanation for it. Not even the good, old, traditional "the form that is on the forefront of your subconscious" (never mind that there's no reason it should be more important than all the other people Shepard had seen die). It just looks like that kid, deal with it.

[Trazoi]

Eh, I didn't the dreams to be bad. The players might not have had much attachment to the duct-boy, but I can see him becoming a sort of symbol of all the people on Earth Shepard couldn't save in the Commander's head. And the dreams themselves were a moderately effective, if cliched, way of showing Shepard's psyche finally starting to crack under the pressure.

I think that was what they were going for in the game but it didn't feel right. A large part of it is that ME3 takes far more liberties in stamping a personality on Shepard. Even if a player's Shepard is the coldest hearted Renegade Shepard around, they've got to care about Duct-boy.

[Zevox]

Eh, I didn't the dreams to be bad. The players might not have had much attachment to the duct-boy, but I can see him becoming a sort of symbol of all the people on Earth Shepard couldn't save in the Commander's head. And the dreams themselves were a moderately effective, if cliched, way of showing Shepard's psyche finally starting to crack under the pressure.

I agree that the dreams were not a bad idea at their core. The kid however was - we know nothing about him, so expecting us to be particularly sad about him just comes across as transparently manipulative, expecting us to care precisely because he's a kid.

I even suggested an easy way to fix this earler (don't recall if it was in the ending thread or main thread): kill Anderson instead. He's someone we know from the previous games and most players probably care about to some degree, and he didn't really do anything in this one. I could certainly see his death getting to someone who worked with him as much as Shepard in that kind of way.

Zevox

[Morty]

I think that was what they were going for in the game but it didn't feel right. A large part of it is that ME3 takes far more liberties in stamping a personality on Shepard. Even if a player's Shepard is the coldest hearted Renegade Shepard around, they've got to care about Duct-boy.

I agree that the dreams were not a bad idea at their core. The kid however was - we know nothing about him, so expecting us to be particularly sad about him just comes across as transparently manipulative, expecting us to care precisely because he's a kid.

Good points. The kid really did feel like he'd been shoehorned in no matter how you look at it. I guess I just didn't really mind at the time of playing.
Also, I said that I think the Catalyst looked like that boy due to time constraints, but after thinking about it some more, it still makes no sense. If they were in a hurry and didn't have enough time to work out a new model, there were so many better existing ones. People mentioned the squadmate who died on Virmire, and that'd work - however, they'd have to record all lines twice. Avina would also have made at least a semblance of sense. Anderson. Saren. Hell, even Conrad Verner would be more logical.

[Aotrs Commander]

I agree that the dreams were not a bad idea at their core. The kid however was - we know nothing about him, so expecting us to be particularly sad about him just comes across as transparently manipulative, expecting us to care precisely because he's a kid.

I even suggested an easy way to fix this earler (don't recall if it was in the ending thread or main thread): kill Anderson instead. He's someone we know from the previous games and most players probably care about to some degree, and he didn't really do anything in this one. I could certainly see his death getting to someone who worked with him as much as Shepard in that kind of way.

Zevox

Indeed, Anderson's death is the only part of the ending I tolerate (I won't say like, because I'm generally against character death as a rule, but in isolation, it would have been as well-executed as Thane's, Legion's or Mordin's deaths.)

Much as I'm loathe to say it, Chakwas would also have fit the bill (though I'm not sure if you can get her killed in ME 2 if you crew the escort mission up.)

I agree the dreams were not themselves a bad idea at the core, but the kid was just wrong. It was just too obviously a signpost that shouted "PLAYER FEEL SAD NOW!" and then comes a point when shouting the message means that all you here is some twallock shouting at you, and not the content of what's being shouted. The kid was as subtle as Grunt in a booze-induced rage frenzy.

Avina would also have made at least a semblance of sense.

Avina would have been almost have been good. Heck, it might even have come as more of a surprise, because Shepard (and players not in the know) wouldn't have twigged right away. As it was, it was freaking obvious.

[Luzahn]

Eh, I didn't the dreams to be bad. The players might not have had much attachment to the duct-boy, but I can see him becoming a sort of symbol of all the people on Earth Shepard couldn't save in the Commander's head. And the dreams themselves were a moderately effective, if cliched, way of showing Shepard's psyche finally starting to crack under the pressure.
Still, all this doesn't change the fact that making the Catalyst take the form of the boy made no sense and whatever effect it was intended to have, it failed. Frankly, I have a nagging feeling that the real reason the Catalyst looked the way it did was because they were in a hurry.
The worst part though is that there's no explanation for it. Not even the good, old, traditional "the form that is on the forefront of your subconscious" (never mind that there's no reason it should be more important than all the other people Shepard had seen die). It just looks like that kid, deal with it.

My problem was that Colonist Sole Survivor Shepard has seen far greater horrors than a kid being killed. Other Shepards have probably seen worse, but that setup shouldn't be affected by that.

[Morty]

Much as I'm loathe to say it, Chakwas would also have fit the bill (though I'm not sure if you can get her killed in ME 2 if you crew the escort mission up.)

Dr. Chakwas will die if you don't assign anyone to escort the surviving crew in the Suicide Mission.