General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

[Hiro Protagonest]

Not necessarily true with Infernals. The demon, unlike the deathlord, can lie.

...You know the demons and Yozis continue to talk to you after the initial deal, right? They're never going to take an Infernal without even trying to get him to support the Reclamation.

[Lix Lorn]

I thought of a crossover.

Resident Evil: Gem.

In Modern, a bunch of Abyssals who figured out how to make zombies with a contagious effect decided to take over Gem. Y'know, instead of the Alchemicals, or the Infernals, or the Solars...

...I could go for this.
But the abyssal has to be called Wesker.

[Lord Raziere]

...You know the demons and Yozis continue to talk to you after the initial deal, right? They're never going to take an Infernal without even trying to get him to support the Reclamation.

Yea, the problem with Abyssals is that now they are too similar to Infernals for me not to want to play an Abyssal like an Infernal.

I can only hope that the alternate Resonance system in Shards will be something I'll like…..

[Weimann]

This just in.

Just got off the horn with Da Boss.

Most Sorrowful Update: At the earliest, the proofs might be back from Lightning Source on Friday, but more likely is early the following week. 4th of July holiday in the middle of the process is slowing everything down.

Same day the proof comes in (assuming all the pages aren't stuck in sideways or whatever), Shards will go live.

[Tavar]

...You know the demons and Yozis continue to talk to you after the initial deal, right? They're never going to take an Infernal without even trying to get him to support the Reclamation.

There are definitely times when it wouldn't happen.

Yea, the problem with Abyssals is that now they are too similar to Infernals for me not to want to play an Abyssal like an Infernal.

They really aren't that similar. The thing is, you actively dislike the Abyssal Experience.

[Lord Raziere]

They really aren't that similar. The thing is, you actively dislike the Abyssal Experience.

Yes they are, or I wouldn't want to play an Abyssal like an Infernal. If they were different enough, I would have any problems. and don't give me that "Demons lie, Death Lords don't" stupidity. Even Death Lords are allowed to twist the truth somewhat, and any twisting of the truth is not really the truth, because its a lie. Therefore both of them lie.

And any claim that the Abyssals exalting is morally bad or whatever has to contend with a setting where its explicitly stated where no morality exists- aside from the Ebon Dragon, but he only exists to spite everything, why not the universe? but he is the sole exception- and furthermore has to contend with the fact that for some reason you can exalt as an independent, without any agreement to destroy the world.

and before you say they aren't similar at all:
-Infernals can set their Exaltations free so that an Infernal can "independently" Exalt as well
-One of the Abyssals methods of destroying the world is through terraforming it all into one big shadowland, similar to how Infernals terraform everything into Yozi-land.
-They both serve masters that enforce their will upon the world- Third Circle Demons and Death Lords.
-They accept a deal when they have fallen in some way
-They both have even greater masters that enforce their will upon them through Limit- Yozis and Neverborn.
-They are both corrupted Solar Exaltations.
-They both do things to eat and regain motes
-They are both considered "villainous" splats by people who don't want to play them
-they both been shown to have red eyes.

Infernals are just better designed is all. If their darkness wasn't cowardly and had more fighting charms, I'd play them wholeheartedly.

[Sanguine]

you can exalt as an independent, without any agreement to destroy the world.

This is not true. Independent Exaltations still inform a prospective Abyssal of what the Black Exaltation entails and require them to agree to take it. In fact independents have less of a leg to stand on morally as the Exaltation is not an intelligent thing. Meaning it can't dress the truth up in a pretty dress to disguise the fact that it is a slattern of the street.

[Lord Raziere]

This is not true. Independent Exaltations still inform a prospective Abyssal of what the Black Exaltation entails and require them to agree to take it. In fact independents have less of a leg to stand on morally as the Exaltation is not an intelligent thing. Meaning it can't dress the truth up in a pretty dress to disguise the fact that it is a slattern of the street.

No, thats wrong, it just says "do you want to be a Champion of Death?" and doesn't say anything about destroying the world. the ink monkeys specifically introduced it as a Black Exaltation where you don't have to agree to do that.

[Incendius]

and before you say they aren't similar at all:
-Infernals can set their Exaltations free so that an Infernal can "independently" Exalt as well

Infernals can redefine most of the parameters of their Exaltation, the Abyssals really can't.

-One of the Abyssals methods of destroying the world is through terraforming it all into one big shadowland, similar to how Infernals terraform everything into Yozi-land.

Considering that "Yozi-Land" is entirely dependent on which Yozi you are talking about, and that it can really be anything you want it to be (Chirality Prohibition Index), they really aren't the same.

-They both serve masters that enforce their will upon the world- Third Circle Demons and Death Lords.

Eh, Abyssals are much more bound to the Death Lords than Infernals are bound to the Third Circle Demons. Sure the Infernals interact with the 3CD, but they don't take marching orders from them (at least in games I've played). Infernals are expected to be super-competent independent agents, which is why they still have free will, despite what SWLiHN wanted.

-They accept a deal when they have fallen in some way

"I will murder everyone and everything alive." Is not the same as "I will help the unjustly imprisoned architects of Creation to get out of their jail."

-They both have even greater masters that enforce their will upon them through Limit- Yozis and Neverborn.
-They are both corrupted Solar Exaltations.

Not much to say here, those are both true, though they are implemented in such exceedingly different ways, that I'm not sure why you are conflating them.

-They both do things to eat and regain motes

Genuinely confused here. Baseline Infernals regain motes like anybody else, and their charm based ways have nothing to do with Abyssal feeding (Say, like meditating under water...)

-They are both considered "villainous" splats by people who don't want to play them

And? "Villain" is a ridiculously broad descriptor.

-they both been shown to have red eyes.

What? Seriously, I don't understand this. Some Abyssals have red eyes, Some Infernals have red eyes, heck, some mortals have red eyes!

Infernals are just better designed is all. If their darkness wasn't cowardly and had more fighting charms, I'd play them wholeheartedly.

I apologize if you were saying that Abyssal darkness is cowardly (because they are heavily slanted in that direction), but have you read the Infernals book? 1 out of the 5 Yozis being cowardly means nothing when you have 4 Yozis that all encourage insanely courageous feats.

[Lord Raziere]

I apologize if you were saying that Abyssal darkness is cowardly (because they are heavily slanted in that direction), but have you read the Infernals book? 1 out of the 5 Yozis being cowardly means nothing when you have 4 Yozis that all encourage insanely courageous feats.

Not the people, the charms, the charms. he only charms that do darkness themed attacks and whatnot, are cowardly ranged ones with only certain circumstances to do them in melee, because they belong to the Ebon Dragon.

Abyssal charms are all dark and have melee attacks to do at will, not cowardly at all. I want those kinds of charms.

[Incendius]

So what?

No really, why the hell does that matter when you have...

Malfaes charms, which are not at all subtle, and using any of them paints a huge target on your back.

Cecelyne charms, which encourage you to establish as Blasphemous dominion that is super obvious to anyone who has the smallest bit of sense, and set yourself up as a diety of that area, painting yet another target on your back.

She Who Lives in Her Name charms, which make you so transcendentally courageous that you cannot feel fear.

Adorjan charms, where all the combat ones have to be used in close combat.

You are taking 1 out of the 6 charm sets available (not even getting into the unreleased Yozis or the homebrew ones, of which I dare you to call Isidoros 'Cowardly'), and saying that it defines the entire splat. So I am going to ask you again, have you read the Infernals book?


Edit: Oh yeah, and great job comparing the Darkness and Ranged Yozi to Abyssal Melee, rather than say, Abyssal Archery combined with Abyssal Stealth and Abyssal Awareness, letting you shoot anyone anywhere in the world through any sort of barrier, from the safety of your own doom fortress. Real courageous there.

[Lord Raziere]

So what?

No really, why the hell does that matter when you have...

Malfaes charms, which are not at all subtle, and using any of them paints a huge target on your back.

Cecelyne charms, which encourage you to establish as Blasphemous dominion that is super obvious to anyone who has the smallest bit of sense, and set yourself up as a diety of that area, painting yet another target on your back.

She Who Lives in Her Name charms, which make you so transcendentally courageous that you cannot feel fear.

Adorjan charms, where all the combat ones have to be used in close combat.

You are taking 1 out of the 6 charm sets available (not even getting into the unreleased Yozis or the homebrew ones, of which I dare you to call Isidoros 'Cowardly'), and saying that it defines the entire splat. So I am going to ask you again, have you read the charms chapter of the Infernals book?

……….

The cowardly thing doesn't matter! your missing the point!

The point is the darkness! the shadows! melee charms, that are shadowy and dark! none of the other Yozis are dark or shadowy! Abyssals are dark and shadowy.

Y'know, what? On second thought NEVERMIND! I just want to forget the whole discussion!

[Incendius]

Haha. Okay. I suggest that maybe next time you don't try to base an argument on superficial similarities.

[Tavar]

No, thats wrong, it just says "do you want to be a Champion of Death?" and doesn't say anything about destroying the world. the ink monkeys specifically introduced it as a Black Exaltation where you don't have to agree to do that.

This is when the Abyssal Exaltation acts. Inarticulate compared to a Deathlord, it makes no elegant speeches, presents no phantasmal visions. It communicates its offer urgently, subliminally: cast aside name and destiny, embrace death as its immortal champion, and gain the power of Exaltation.
To save those they love, to destroy those they hate, many would accept.

Not quite accurate.

[Kyeudo]

For those of you who were interested in joining my game, I now have the recruting thread up.

[Lord Raziere]

Not quite accurate.

I'm…..I'm not even going to correct you. Fine whatever you win, I don't care anymore.

[TheCountAlucard]

I'm…..I'm not even going to correct you. Fine whatever you win, I don't care anymore.

To "correct" Tavar would imply that Tavar was wrong; point is, even an independent Abyssal Exaltation is very much asking the wielder to take up the banner of destruction.

[Lord Raziere]

You seem to have missed the point: I don't care anymore. Have your doomed Abyssals. I want nothing to do with them. I'm tired of being a freaking underdog in these stupid arguments because everyone for some reason likes playing a splat that only consists of one type of playable character concept that will only ever have two endings that I hate. Makes absolutely no sense to me.

[horngeek]

Wha? There's more than one character type for Abyssals. You can play an Abyssal trying for redemption just as easily as a loyalist Abyssal.

[Lord Raziere]

I said "playable"; the redemption one was the one I was referring to.

But if you insist, since I don't care anymore, two kinds of character types: Loyalist or Redemption. Black or White. Boring as Heck. Either I redeem myself, tragically fail to redeem myself, destroy the world, or fail to destroy the world. Look at how many options I have. Truly my imagination is inspired by all the limitless possibilities.
Not.

[Kyeudo]

Or you man up and take the third option, where you say screw you to the Neverborn, don't destroy the world, and find a way to shatter the chains of Resonance forever. You then spend eternity ruling a kingdom of the dead as a caretaker of the Underworld.

Who cares if that isn't an explicitly written option in the MoEP:Abyssals? Screw the rules, you are Exalted.

[Lord Raziere]

You know what Kyeudo? your right. screw the canon options. Why am I letting the canon options in the books limit my imagination? I've made dozens of awesome things from nothing in my head, and I've never gone wrong there. Why deviate from a method that has always worked? I'll just say screw the canon, and just wait for my imagination to invent a way to break Resonance. I'm sure it'll come to me eventually…. awesome ideas always come to me like that.

[Kyeudo]

You need to play more Exalted if you thought you had to stick to how the book says you do things. Exalted is all about finding your own way to get stuff done.

I've done information gathering with Athletics and diplomacy with Melee.

[Drascin]

You know, I keep hearing that, and it so rarely tends to line up with my experiences of playing Exalted as opposed to, well, basically most other games I've ever played.

[Kyeudo]

It sounds to me like you are trained to stick to the rails your Storyteller lays down. Question the best approach, punch through the boundaries, and define your own goals.

[Lochar]

It sounds to me like you are trained to stick to the rails your Storyteller lays down. Question the best approach, punch through the boundaries, and define your own goals.

You forgot make the ST cry.

[Tavar]

I said "playable"; the redemption one was the one I was referring to.

But if you insist, since I don't care anymore, two kinds of character types: Loyalist or Redemption. Black or White. Boring as Heck. Either I redeem myself, tragically fail to redeem myself, destroy the world, or fail to destroy the world. Look at how many options I have. Truly my imagination is inspired by all the limitless possibilities.
Not.

Or you're entirely wrong about this. Again.

I do find it interesting that you seem very reluctant to bring evidence to back up your view.

[HerrTenko]

You forgot make the ST cry.

You mean "shed tears of joy" because of all the awesome, right?

[GryffonDurime]

You mean "shed tears of joy" because of all the awesome, right?

I don't know, let me go check the Demented One.

...

...

Nope, definitely tears of ragesorrow.

[Kyeudo]

You forgot make the ST cry.

If your Storyteller knows what you will be doing next session, you're doing it wrong.