General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

[The_Snark]

It's organized differently in the compiled PDF - the geomancy stuff is filed under Far Shores and Wonders, whereas this bit was relocated to Essential Essays. (In my version of the Compendium, anyway. Not sure if there are others.)

[Xefas]

I'm just not sure what makes it exalted, other than random namedrops.

Well, "Exalted" has different meanings for different people. There's no one singular definition that makes a particular product or setting Exalted. IIRC, there was that one poster, Ur-Priest, who defined Exalted by having a lot of tedious and fiddly math. We had a discussion, and it came down to "I got into Exalted because of all the tedious and fiddly math". And that's cool.

For me, I think it's Kung Fu, Essence, and Demon Emperor Shintai. Does everything run on Essence? Does everyone know Kung Fu? Can I use Demon Emperor Shintai? Burn Legend answers these all with "yes", so I'm on board with it.

edit: Also, proper nouns. Burn Legend has those too!

[Tavar]

Burn Legend is an aspect of Exalted taken out and enlarged to the central focus.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well, "Exalted" has different meanings for different people. There's no one singular definition that makes a particular product or setting Exalted. IIRC, there was that one poster, Ur-Priest, who defined Exalted by having a lot of tedious and fiddly math. We had a discussion, and it came down to "I got into Exalted because of all the tedious and fiddly math". And that's cool.

For me, I think it's Kung Fu, Essence, and Demon Emperor Shintai. Does everything run on Essence? Does everyone know Kung Fu? Can I use Demon Emperor Shintai? Burn Legend answers these all with "yes", so I'm on board with it.

edit: Also, proper nouns. Burn Legend has those too!

I play Exalted so I can be Anti-Antichrist and punch people.

Burn Legend lets me do the second, possibly the third. Mayyybe the first, but my soul still goes to Hell, and to me, that wrecks it all. It also is a setting where just being christ is not that much harder, if at all, than being anti-antichrist, with none of the drawbacks.

I guess it's just that Burn Legend is focused on only one part of Exalted, and that makes it feel off.

[Lord Raziere]

Alright, so I guess I'm finally going to make that Infernal Charm for shapeshifting.

Stepping on Lunars' Toes (Even More)
Cost: --; Mins: Essence 3
Keywords: Heretical, Shaping?
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisites: By Rage Recast, Loom-Snarling Deception

Taking the shapechanging abilities of Malfeas, the Infernal carefully uses them in tandem with the deception of the Ebon Dragon.

This Charm permanently enhances Loom-Snarling Deception. It no longer carries the Illusion keyword. The appearance-changing illusion is replaced by true shapeshifting, a Shaping effect, as the Infernal is truly the form he has taken on. Up to four points in positive Mutations (not including purely cosmetic Mutations such as Skin/Hair Color, which are free) may be taken.


I'm making this mostly because I don't want to play a Lunar. The animal powers... just don't appeal much to me. I basically just want Twin-Faced Hero.

Cool, but need a better name for it.

By Deception Remade, perhaps?

[Gareth3]

Crushing Luna's Paw?

[Sanguine]

Actually… would anyone like to run a Burn Legen game?

Ah.

My main problem with Rpol is I'd probably forget to check it.

EDIT: I also want to play in Modern.

I would gladly play either of those. Though after running a short irl game of Burn Legends I'm convinced I don't understand the system well enough to run it. The final boss was the easiest fight in the entire game. And that's counting the many fights against extras.

[Edge]

With my hard copy of Shards having finally arrived, I am stoked for a Modern game, with a nebulous half-formed concept for an Abyssal biker vigilante.

[Qwertystop]

I'm just surprised that neither Sidereals nor Lunars have a charm for expanding the passenger capacity of a car. The closest thing Sidereals have even specifically disallowed it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm just surprised that neither Sidereals nor Lunars have a charm for expanding the passenger capacity of a car. The closest thing Sidereals have even specifically disallowed it.

Non-Euclidian geometry is reserved for Wyld Magics and Yozis.

Eh, I might go for a Modern game. Especially if it's set on actual Earth (which would probably require hosting this on RPoL since we'd get into politics and religion).

[Qwertystop]

Non-Euclidian geometry is reserved for Wyld Magics and Yozis.

Eh, I might go for a Modern game. Especially if it's set on actual Earth (which would probably require hosting this on RPoL since we'd get into politics and religion).

Infernals don't have one either. And the Sidereal one can expand the amount you can put in a car. It just doesn't let you put people in the extra space.

On that note, why do Sidereals have so few new charms compared to other Exalts?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Infernals don't have one either.

I said Yozis. Not Yozi abilities. Places like Cecelyne and Malfeas.

The Sidereal being ale to put in things but not people might have to do with Hammerspace (which is an actual place in Exalted that nobody can go. Someone tried once).

[Lix Lorn]

Non-Euclidian geometry is reserved for Wyld Magics and Yozis.

Eh, I might go for a Modern game. Especially if it's set on actual Earth (which would probably require hosting this on RPoL since we'd get into politics and religion).

Plus the entire tree of lunar elsewhere charms.

[Tavar]

I think Sid's actually got more charms in Shards than a couple others.

As for why they have less overall, well, it has to do with their paradigm. They have short, powerful trees that tend to leave certain gaps in what they can do(IE, Shun the Smiling Lady is powerful, but it's not always the right tool for the job). The Sidereal is given the best hammer in the world, and then a mixture of nails, screws, nuts, and more.

To keep this theme, they aren't really supposed to get more charms, because too many an the difference between them an Solars becomes indistinct.

There are many problems with it's current implementation, but there are also several possible solutions that could work and keep the themes that are important.

[Yuki Akuma]

I said Yozis. Not Yozi abilities. Places like Cecelyne and Malfeas.

Yozis are nothing but their abilities. Their bodies are literally defined by charms. Cecelyne has a charm which says "it takes five days to cross me" (and likely a bunch of other stuff). Malfeas has a charm which says "the inside of my body is infinitely large" (and a bunch of other stuff).

Also, warping space and non-euclidean geometry is totally a Sidereal thing to do. They have a Firearms charm that lets them shoot multiple targets with one bullet, no matter how the targets are arranged.

They could even use this to hit a bunch of people standing in a line, starting with the person at the back. Or in the middle. And have the bullet come towards them rather than away from them.

Even in their Manual of Exalted Power, they have things like teleporting away from danger, dodging landslides that totally fill the area they're standing in, or sailing to Yu-Shan in a sailing boat.

Or dragging a settlement by tying it to themselves and running, without disturbing the geography of the area they drag it through.

[Rhyvurg]

Somebody, please, PLEASE explain to me why Infernals are so popular? Every game I try to get into, half a million people ask if they can play an Infernal. Regardless of the particular game style or story the ST wants, they want Infernals. It might require major concessions on the ST's part, revising of the plot, making up rules, endless debate, doesn't matter. Even now, in a Gunstar game, WHERE INFERNALS ARE UNDER THE GEAS, HAVE NO FREE WILL AND THERE'S NO POSSIBLE, LOGICAL WAY THEY COULD BE IN AUTOCTHONIA, they still ask. What is the frikkin' appeal of these guys? I've read the book, I've seen their charm trees, I know what playstyle they're supposed to have, and I still have absolutely no urge to play one, ever.

[Ganurath]

Long story short? Solars are vanilla ice cream, Abyssals are chocolate ice cream, and Infernals are everything else with sprinkles and icing.

[golentan]

First off, in my game while Infernals are under the geas they do have free will. They're not AKUMA.

Second off, infernals are awesome because their powers act on the world in an entirely different way than any other exalted. They're powered purely through thematic resonance and essence, and are deliciously alien and often so much fun to use.

[Rhyvurg]

I still don't get it though. Fluff-wise, the things empowering the Infernals are, for lack of a better word, losers. They lost. The things empowering everyone else won. Mechanically, I've seen one Solar face down three Infernals with more XP than him (new player in a sandbox game), and defeat them handily. They didn't even put him into his -2 health levels.

[horngeek]

Still, he has a point about them not being suited to Gunstar. That shard is very much 'either Solar or Infernal PCs, NOT BOTH.'

[golentan]

Still, he has a point about them not being suited to Gunstar. That shard is very much 'either Solar or Infernal PCs, NOT BOTH.'

Playing them off against each other spares me having to come up with as many plots.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Somebody, please, PLEASE explain to me why Infernals are so popular? Every game I try to get into, half a million people ask if they can play an Infernal. Regardless of the particular game style or story the ST wants, they want Infernals. It might require major concessions on the ST's part, revising of the plot, making up rules, endless debate, doesn't matter. Even now, in a Gunstar game, WHERE INFERNALS ARE UNDER THE GEAS, HAVE NO FREE WILL AND THERE'S NO POSSIBLE, LOGICAL WAY THEY COULD BE IN AUTOCTHONIA, they still ask. What is the frikkin' appeal of these guys? I've read the book, I've seen their charm trees, I know what playstyle they're supposed to have, and I still have absolutely no urge to play one, ever.

...You are really confused about what the geas actually does. It is impossible for them to attack the Primordials or Deva. But other than that, they have free will. They can still craft artifacts, build power armor, help with experimentation of genetically modifying mortals, and do all that good stuff.

And we like Infernals because they have cool powers and flavor. Personally, I love being Anti-Antichrist. I also love a Past Life/Savant combination, most Malfeas and Infernal Monster Charms, some of the Adorjan Charms (luckily they're all part of the same cascade), and for homebrew, TDO's Isidoros Charms and my own Charm (which I can't find any way of fitting into the Solar Charm tree, even without the fate-warping abilities of LSD. Otherwise, I would switch to a Dawn for Sanguine's game in a heartbeat).

[Sanguine]

I still don't get it though. Fluff-wise, the things empowering the Infernals are, for lack of a better word, losers. They lost. The things empowering everyone else won. Mechanically, I've seen one Solar face down three Infernals with more XP than him (new player in a sandbox game), and defeat them handily. They didn't even put him into his -2 health levels.

In Gunstar, that's no longer the case. As for one Solar beating three Infernals, they were obviously wusses. In a game I ran a while back it took the entire circle working together to even faze the enemy Slayer.

Still, he has a point about them not being suited to Gunstar. That shard is very much 'either Solar or Infernal PCs, NOT BOTH.'

I actually have a great idea for a Sovereign that could work with the Gunstar guys. Sure no one would trust him, but but better to have him where you can keep an eye on him than out in a Hellstar killing your people. The concept plays off of the massive amounts of Conviction he would have.

[Rhyvurg]

Okay, maybe I overreacted with the Geas thing, but they're extremely unsuitable. And it seems like most people want to play them as defying the Primordials (or Titans, whatever), so is it really the fluff, or the mechanics? Because I've read the charms, I don't see what makes them so great.

And really, I'd rather have that Infernal out in a Hellstar, in my gunsights.

[Sanguine]

Okay, maybe I overreacted with the Geas thing, but they're extremely unsuitable. And it seems like most people want to play them as defying the Primordials (or Titans, whatever), so is it really the fluff, or the mechanics? Because I've read the charms, I don't see what makes them so great.

And really, I'd rather have that Infernal out in a Hellstar, in my gunsights.

Yes it's really the fluff. Infernal characters can tell stories that no other Exalt type can, Abyssals can come close to some, and Alchemicals others, but in both instances they are still different, if similar, stories.

Transhumanism is a theme that is very important to the Infernals. Now it's not unique to Infernals, both Lunars and Alchemicals have such themes, and all of the rest to a lesser extent. But none of them explore it in quite the same way Infernals do. Having your mind and outlook twisted by the alien powers you wield is a very interesting concept to explore. At least in my mind.

Another is Rebellion. Abyssals also tell stories of rebellion, but they are very different stories. Abyssals tell stories of the long brutal climb to salvation, and those can be great stories, but they are nothing like Infernal stories. Infernal stories aren't about redemption, they are about taking the power you were given and twisting it to your own ends without angst or worry.

It's also worth noting that do to the nature of Malfeas and Ebon Dragon Charms the majority of those who take such will rebel against the Reclamation.

There's also the whole Rockstar of Hell thing they've got going on.

Edit: I'd personally rather have him surrounded by combat capable exalts who are fully willing to take his head off at even the slightest hint of betrayal, while all the while using his Titanic power to further my own ends. But that's just me.

[Tavar]

For awhile they also had one of the better designed charmsets in the game, which made them much more popular.

[Hiro Protagonest]

There's also the whole Rockstar of Hell thing they've got going on.

Between the Malfeas Excellency, artifact instruments, and dots in Performance, I like to take it literally.

And that reminds me, can I use this in your game? A modified version of the lute used by a Slayer in Alucard's old Infernals game.

Guitar of Legends (artifact 3)
This guitar, made of Black Jade, has unique powers. The attuned user can play the guitar to make unblockable social attacks against any or all of those who can hear him at the cost of two motes, moving them with Essence-imbued melodies and chords. He can also use Phantom-Conjuring Performance with the guitar, as the Solar Charm, at no cost, without requiring an Excellency. The guitar has one hearthstone slot.

Attunement: 6

[aetherialDawn]

With the description of the Green Sun in Exalted: Modern, I just can't help but keep thinking of Exaltedstuck.

Which means Ligier is Doc Scratch, in Exalted: Modern.

Oh mighty Storytellers, I beg one of you: Make this game a reality. Even if it's just a cameo. I want to see it.

[Gensh]

And it seems like most people want to play them as defying the Primordials (or Titans, whatever), so is it really the fluff, or the mechanics?

Yeah, while Infernals were always popular because of having strong innate themes, the Devil-Tiger Charm tree seems to have caused an explosion of special snowflake characters. Solar were no longer the individualistic Exalted as far as many players were concerned. It's unfortunate, because that tree is actually metaphysically beautiful, but no one much thinks about the philosophical implications. Likewise, you can count the number of Yozi loyalists on one hand.

Me, I tend to take the Erekosë position - it's better for literally everyone if humans aren't the dominant species. And I mean literally everyone; it's better for humans if humans aren't the dominant species. The Exalted allowed Creation to be ravaged again and again (and done so themselves); better to restore the original, competent, rulers - even at the cost of humanity.

[Lord Raziere]

Unfortunately, while I do want to play a Devil-Tiger….I am so bad at charm-making, that I'm sure I wouldn't make anything mechanically good for said Devil-Tiger….