General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

[Tarinaky]

Thanks for the answers.

They did raise another question though: How can a Solar Exalt have a low Conviction score, when by definition their Exaltation was brought on by the person being willing to stand their ground/stick to their beliefs against impossible odds? Surely they must all have a least a Conviction of 3 to have pulled that off?

What about Valor (suicidal bravery) or even Compassion (sticking up for someone else)?

[Kobold-Bard]

What about Valor (suicidal bravery) or even Compassion (sticking up for someone else)?

Maybe. Conviction seemed like an overarching necessity for Solar exaltation, with those ones depending on their particular circumstances.

What would be an example of a Temperance-fuelled exaltation?

[Tavar]

I'd point out that going renegade isn't the default of Infernals, IE as soon as you Exalt you go renegade. In fact, the developers even says this: if you look at what he's saying you see that the decision happens over time, as you learn more about what they are. Keep in mind that any infernal could have been a Solar, and so they are going to be driven people, and not exactly willing to bow to someone else forever(case in point, Merla).

And, additionally, as you realize how powerful you are, and how much you could do in Creation without their help, and how the Yozi seem intent on holding them back.

Also, remember, Infernals can still have families, which gives another place for anti-Yozi leverage.

Finally, one important thing to note is that as soon as any Infernal goes rogue, I'd expect the Yozi to start cracking down, which could cause more to go rogue, and the cycle continues. After all, Malfeas's original method to train the GSP's was to beat them down and yell at them, because that's what he does. Restraint isn't exactly what he's known for.

On the side, remember that, regarding the Primrodials after the war, the choice was either kill them all, or imprison them. No other option was truly viable at that moment. And the only way to imprison them was the option they went with. As for the idea that some might have been taken in by the Exalted host, the issue there is isn't that easy. These titanic beings had just fought an incredibly difficult war, one in which billions died, quite often close friends and allies, and did so repeatedly. It's going to be pretty hard to get to trust those beings.

Yep. Being a total ******* does not disqualify you from Exalting. You just need to be dumb enough to risk your neck in impossible odds .

Yay, incredible simplification, bordering on out and out wrong. It's not impossible odds that are the deciding factor(though, facing impossible odds is a common factor). Nor is it stupidity. It's looking at the current situation, and deciding that fixing it is more important than one's own life. Good examples throughout history would be most civil rights leaders in any given country.

[Ganurath]

So, I'm thinking General Exalted Discussion Thread XI: Impossible Stamina Improvement. We can reference the Great Houses with General Exalted Discussion Thread XII: No Love For Manosques.

[Gensh]

And, additionally, as you realize how powerful you are, and how much you could do in Creation without their help, and how the Yozi seem intent on holding them back.

See, this is actually one of the best reasons in support of siding with the Yozis. At the end of the day, there are 299 other guys who also think they can "fix" Creation, and most of their ideas for doing so are mutually exclusive. And that's not counting the Lunars, Sidereals, and dragonblooded host. I liked how Gunstar actually pointed this out. "Good" is whomever comes out on top, and I'm willing to compromise some of my personal morals in order to get Big Green's help in slapping my peers around before any of them start to get ideas.

Finally, one important thing to note is that as soon as any Infernal goes rogue, I'd expect the Yozi to start cracking down, which could cause more to go rogue, and the cycle continues. After all, Malfeas's original method to train the GSP's was to beat them down and yell at them, because that's what he does. Restraint isn't exactly what he's known for.

This is very true. It is also, however, an excellent opportunity to become an inquisitor and get brownie points for eliminating your rivals.

On the side, remember that, regarding the Primrodials after the war, the choice was either kill them all, or imprison them. No other option was truly viable at that moment. And the only way to imprison them was the option they went with. As for the idea that some might have been taken in by the Exalted host, the issue there is isn't that easy. These titanic beings had just fought an incredibly difficult war, one in which billions died, quite often close friends and allies, and did so repeatedly. It's going to be pretty hard to get to trust those beings.

Point, but turning down the offer of the one who cannot disobey hierarchy was just spiteful, lacking basic practicality. Kilomote+Cleansing Solar Flames. Once she's done, send her out on Wyld patrol. Bam! No worries about her trying to eliminate free will because she's busy with that forever.

Yay, incredible simplification, bordering on out and out wrong. It's not impossible odds that are the deciding factor(though, facing impossible odds is a common factor). Nor is it stupidity. It's looking at the current situation, and deciding that fixing it is more important than one's own life. Good examples throughout history would be most civil rights leaders in any given country.

That's kind of whitewashing it. Anyone with a strong Will to Power can Exalt, especially as Solaroid. An equally valid example would be a tyrant whose reign leads to a civil rights movement. Really, Autochthon should have reconfigured the shards with better selection criteria post-War if Sol was going to turn over Creation with no stipulations. Or even just put the shards away and replace them with Alchemicals.

[Urpriest]

One discussion point that seems to be missing: fear. Sure eventually an Infernal can go renegade no problem, but in the meantime you've got as much reason to be a loyalist as anyone in a historical tyrannical regime: you're part of a vast and merciless organization that will put you down if you rebel.

[Tavar]

See, this is actually one of the best reasons in support of siding with the Yozis. At the end of the day, there are 299 other guys who also think they can "fix" Creation, and most of their ideas for doing so are mutually exclusive. And that's not counting the Lunars, Sidereals, and dragonblooded host. I liked how Gunstar actually pointed this out. "Good" is whomever comes out on top, and I'm willing to compromise some of my personal morals in order to get Big Green's help in slapping my peers around before any of them start to get ideas.

I'd argue that this is less compromising morals and more throwing them away. Especially since you're basically saying "I want total control over everyone, and I'm willing to do anything to do it". Yeah, not buying what you're sellilng.

Also, I don't really see Gunstar making that point at all.

This is very true. It is also, however, an excellent opportunity to become an inquisitor and get brownie points for eliminating your rivals.

If you self delude yourself enough, yes. Otherwise, there should be doubts, as well as questions regarding who is in the 'right' here.

Remember, one of the reasons Malfeas want's GSP's is so he can torture them forever. So, why does your character want that?

Point, but turning down the offer of the one who cannot disobey hierarchy was just spiteful, lacking basic practicality. Kilomote+Cleansing Solar Flames. Once she's done, send her out on Wyld patrol. Bam! No worries about her trying to eliminate free will because she's busy with that forever.

She obviously can change sides, as she just did. And, quite frankly, letting her deal with the wyld can be just as bad, depending on what methods she uses. Hell, Primordials can co-locate with multiple bodies, so that might not actually help matters. The fact of the matter that the Solars cannot be sure of any Primordial's loyalty, and due to the danger that they pose have few options.

That's kind of whitewashing it. Anyone with a strong Will to Power can Exalt, especially as Solaroid. An equally valid example would be a tyrant whose reign leads to a civil rights movement. Really, Autochthon should have reconfigured the shards with better selection criteria post-War if Sol was going to turn over Creation with no stipulations. Or even just put the shards away and replace them with Alchemicals.

Fixing was the wrong word choice, sorry. I meant changing it in some manner. The point being that while a tyrant is one option, so is a reformer. To ignore the latter is a great disservice.

[Gensh]

I'd argue that this is less compromising morals and more throwing them away. Especially since you're basically saying "I want total control over everyone, and I'm willing to do anything to do it". Yeah, not buying what you're sellilng.

Well if Solar Joe has View A1, and Solar Bob has View A2, and those views have a history of hating each other, everyone who isn't a Solar is going to suffer because of their conflict, despite it being obvious to everyone involved that they're both A views and the conflict is stupid. I can trust myself to set up an impartial Country A1 and Country A2 and enforce that they don't go to war, but there's no way I'm leaving those two unsupervised. And Joe and Bob can each say the same thing about me. And then there's Solar Steve who wants it all, consequences be damned. Sure, Bob, Joe, and I might unite to stop Steve, but what if we don't, or what if Steve tricks Bob into joining him? Since morality is merely the demands of whomever's on top of the heap, better that it's me. Bob, Joe, and Steve would all think the same, but they aren't the ones with a demon empire at their back.

Of course, there' the issue of said empire being nigh-omnicidal, but that issue can be resolved after the obligatory Solaroid power struggle, which would be earth-shattering if not resolved quickly.

Also, I don't really see Gunstar making that point at all.

I meant that it shows that the Exalted Host isn't really unified, even when they're unified.

If you self delude yourself enough, yes. Otherwise, there should be doubts, as well as questions regarding who is in the 'right' here.

Well, I think I'm right, and Infernal Tom thinks he's right. And of course, I would always question my actions, such that I might improve my machinations. If Tom tries to ascend to the titan of conquest and rule the world with an iron fist, however, he's going to be put down. A Primordial overlord is predictable and unchanging barring outside influence; a human one is not. The Sidereal method of controlling human rulers has proven useless; better to angle a titan in an ideal direction and run with it.

Remember, one of the reasons Malfeas want's GSP's is so he can torture them forever. So, why does your character want that?

It removes the risk of Solaroid infighting and the destructive consequences of such.

She obviously can change sides, as she just did. And, quite frankly, letting her deal with the wyld can be just as bad, depending on what methods she uses. Hell, Primordials can co-locate with multiple bodies, so that might not actually help matters. The fact of the matter that the Solars cannot be sure of any Primordial's loyalty, and due to the danger that they pose have few options.

She was no longer in a hierarchy at that point. Theion was gone, and she'd not sworn to Malfeas. Accepting her offer would contain an element of risk, yes, but she is relatively predictable, particularly in her desire to see a functional Creation.

Fixing was the wrong word choice, sorry. I meant changing it in some manner. The point being that while a tyrant is one option, so is a reformer. To ignore the latter is a great disservice.

I'm not exactly ignoring the reformer aspect if I'm talking about educating the Yozis to maybe not destroy humanity, now am I?

I accept that my views are radical; I merely ask that they be considered equally valid as any other set. Ideally, there would be no human deaths in a vaguely-benevolent-Malfeas scenario, but with the current situation in Creation, time is of the essence, necessitating certain aspects be rushed.

[Tavar]

Well if Solar Joe has View A1, and Solar Bob has View A2, and those views have a history of hating each other, everyone who isn't a Solar is going to suffer because of their conflict, despite it being obvious to everyone involved that they're both A views and the conflict is stupid. I can trust myself to set up an impartial Country A1 and Country A2 and enforce that they don't go to war, but there's no way I'm leaving those two unsupervised. And Joe and Bob can each say the same thing about me. And then there's Solar Steve who wants it all, consequences be damned. Sure, Bob, Joe, and I might unite to stop Steve, but what if we don't, or what if Steve tricks Bob into joining him? Since morality is merely the demands of whomever's on top of the heap, better that it's me. Bob, Joe, and Steve would all think the same, but they aren't the ones with a demon empire at their back.

I like how you somehow place yourself at the head of the empire, while also placing yourself subservient position. It's like you don't actually read the books describing Malfeas.

You aren't going to be dictating morality in this case, the Yozi will be.

Keep in mind these are the same people that made you into a time bomb.

Of course, there' the issue of said empire being nigh-omnicidal, but that issue can be resolved after the obligatory Solaroid power struggle, which would be earth-shattering if not resolved quickly.

I like how you're simply dismissing the likely destruction of the world as one knows it twice at least as something to be resolved quickly, and not actually requiring much thought.

This reminds me of the discussion I had with someone over a country not having a military, and simply using Nuclear weapons instead.

I meant that it shows that the Exalted Host isn't really unified, even when they're unified.

...
Wow, almost as if there are people with free wills living there. Just like everything else in the setting.

And, note, you aren't proposing to actually free all the Yozi. What you want is one yozi free, because the Primordials didn't work in harmony, either.

Well, I think I'm right, and Infernal Tom thinks he's right. And of course, I would always question my actions, such that I might improve my machinations. If Tom tries to ascend to the titan of conquest and rule the world with an iron fist, however, he's going to be put down. A Primordial overlord is predictable and unchanging barring outside influence; a human one is not. The Sidereal method of controlling human rulers has proven useless; better to angle a titan in an ideal direction and run with it.

The hubris in this statement is so ridiculous I don't even know how to respond.

Primordial overlords are predictable, yes, but their very predictability is what makes them dangerous: SWLiHN is currently very predictable, as she will try and remove all free will. That really doesn't help from a management perspective.

It removes the risk of Solaroid infighting and the destructive consequences of such.

So, your solution is self-terminating?

She was no longer in a hierarchy at that point. Theion was gone, and she'd not sworn to Malfeas. Accepting her offer would contain an element of risk, yes, but she is relatively predictable, particularly in her desire to see a functional Creation.

I'm not sure that's entirely true. We know that she did it around when she surrendered, but that doesn't mean it was after Theion's destruction.

Also, there is the question of how much the Exalted knew about the inner workings of Primordials. We are graced with a large amount of OOC knowledge, but it is a mistake to assume characters know it.

And, again, predictable doesn't mean safe. A Supernova is pretty predictable in the destruction it would cause. It doesn't mean we could do squat if our sun went Supernova.

I'm not exactly ignoring the reformer aspect if I'm talking about educating the Yozis to maybe not destroy humanity, now am I?

I accept that my views are radical; I merely ask that they be considered equally valid as any other set. Ideally, there would be no human deaths in a vaguely-benevolent-Malfeas scenario, but with the current situation in Creation, time is of the essence, necessitating certain aspects be rushed.

No...but if you read the original post, the statement was in reply to a post that was. I was simply clarifying the statement.

[Yuki Akuma]

So, quick question.

How does Limit Break without the Great Curse work?

[Hiro Protagonest]

So, quick question.

How does Limit Break without the Great Curse work?

It doesn't.

[Yuki Akuma]

It doesn't.

Yes it does. Limit is a UMI defense system built into the Exaltations.

[Tavar]

That's covered in the Scroll:

A redeemed Solar lacks the Great Curse, and may not be
subjected to it again by any means in this or any future incarnation.
Similarly, children of Dragon-Blooded freed of the
Curse retain this immunity and pass it on to all their descendents.
All Exalted who have been cured of the Great Curse still
possess a Limit track, but no longer gain Limit by any means
other than having it inflicted upon them directly by magical
effects, such as the Abyssal Charm Sanity-Eroding Diatribe, or
the Solar Charm Bloodthirsty Sword-Dancer Spirit. Resisting
unnatural mental influence is not such an effect and does not
grant Limit any longer. Their Virtue Flaw disappears. When
the character’s Limit hits 10, she loses one dot of permanent
Willpower (minimum Willpower 1) instead of entering Limit
Break madness. Lost dots naturally return at the rate of one
per month since experiencing Limit Break The original Exalted
Limit track was originally designed by the gods and Autochthon
to act as an ablative defense against madness-inducing
Primordial magic. Unfortunately, Limit created an unintended
backdoor vulnerability that the dying Primordials exploited
and corrupted with their Great Curse, bypassing anti-Shaping
defenses through this hidden imperfection. It is scant comfort
that only the death curses of the Primordials could exploit this
crack and that they cannot do so again. Alchemical Exalted,
who were never subject to the Great Curse, also possess such
a Limit track, though they are unaware of this as there are no
beings in Autochthonia with Limit-inducing magic, and Alchemical
Charms cannot give their own user Limit. Abyssals
form the singular exception to this rule—their Limit track has
been twisted into the apparatus by which the Neverborn inflict
Resonance on them, and any effect which would give an Abyssal
Limit instead grants equivalent Resonance.

[golentan]

EDIT: Also, a couple of arguments seem to be based on morality, which I'll remind people is explicitly a relative term in Creation.

Okay, massive personal pet peeve here. People bring up the fact that exalted doesn't have an objective "right" answer as if that automatically invalidates any reasoning based on moral justifications. IT. DOES. NOT.

The fact that there is no mystical force defining "right and wrong" doesn't mean that trying to do the right thing is a fools errand. In fact, trying to do the right thing usually means finding the solution with the most benefit to the most number of people in most accepted moral systems. That's even more important if there's no arbitrary system watching out for people, because it lets people define their own justice and it means people only benefit if they look out for each other.

And acting like morality being subjective in exalted is any different from how modern humanity has arrived at what passes for consensus does a massive disservice to millennia of philosophers, leaders, and cultural evolution as well as to current and ongoing debates in my opinion. And that's as much as I can say without trending too close to forum lines.

"No objective morality..." rackumfrackum fizzlebarb...

[Yuki Akuma]

That's covered in the Scroll:

Aha! Thanks~

[Tavar]

Okay, massive personal pet peeve here. People bring up the fact that exalted doesn't have an objective "right" answer as if that automatically invalidates any reasoning based on moral justifications. IT. DOES. NOT.

The fact that there is no mystical force defining "right and wrong" doesn't mean that trying to do the right thing is a fools errand. In fact, trying to do the right thing usually means finding the solution with the most benefit to the most number of people in most accepted moral systems. That's even more important if there's no arbitrary system watching out for people, because it lets people define their own justice and it means people only benefit if they look out for each other.

And acting like morality being subjective in exalted is any different from how modern humanity has arrived at what passes for consensus does a massive disservice to millennia of philosophers, leaders, and cultural evolution as well as to current and ongoing debates in my opinion. And that's as much as I can say without trending too close to forum lines.

"No objective morality..." rackumfrackum fizzlebarb...

THANKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!

This, incidentally, is my main problem with Gesh's view.

[Turalisj]

Has anyone come up with bullets for the Six-Heart Storm Spitter? I'd love to see some...

[Rhyvurg]

Except, there kind of is a mystical force defining right and wrong in Creation. The Unconquered Sun. That was pretty much the reason he was made, something to define virtue and morality so the Ebon Dragon would have something to contrast himself against.

[Kobold-Bard]

Except, there kind of is a mystical force defining right and wrong in Creation. The Unconquered Sun. That was pretty much the reason he was made, something to define virtue and morality so the Ebon Dragon would have something to contrast himself against.

Thing about the Unconquered Sun (as I understand it at least, so this could be wrong) is that yes, he encompasses perfect Virtue, but the 4 Virtues aren't inherently a good thing; high Compassion breeds undying love & murderous obsession equally, etc.

And as for morality, Creatures of Darkness are made so by a Charm that he can use on anyone he sees fit, even the God of Rainbows & Ridiculously Cute Baby Animals if they get on his bad side. His morality is that what he says is right is what's right. He's not especially objective, as far as supernatural enforcers of righteousness go.

[Turalisj]

And there are things that aren't Creatures of Darkness, even though they should be.

Like Raksha.

[Gensh]

I like how you somehow place yourself at the head of the empire, while also placing yourself subservient position. It's like you don't actually read the books describing Malfeas.

You aren't going to be dictating morality in this case, the Yozi will be.

Keep in mind these are the same people that made you into a time bomb.

A GSP has considerable latitude in their actions and also a decent amount of military paraphernalia they can requisition. My premise is that by proving a valuable and loyal asset, both of these qualities will improve to values sufficient that when I insinuate Steve must be destroyed for the sake of the Reclamation, I am provided adequate freedom and resources to complete this task so long as it does not interfere with other duties. A GSP is a servant; not a slave, no matter what the Yozis wish. Such was their intention, though they oft regret it and rankle at the very idea. I am free to pursue my own agenda so long as it is compatible with those of the Yozis at large.

I like how you're simply dismissing the likely destruction of the world as one knows it twice at least as something to be resolved quickly, and not actually requiring much thought.

Painted in large swathes, the Solars are scattered, the Abyssals insane or rebellious, the GSPs self-indulgent. There is no real unified base beyond what can be willed to move by a tyrant. If someone gets it in their head that I'm a threat to Creation, then I need to take them down or turn them to my side before they become powerful enough to do something about it because "doing something about it" is likely to involve overwhelming force that poses a danger to Creation. Note that the various DB factions would actually pose a greater threat to my plans, but they are of no consequence so long as no one is firing the RDG or something.

This reminds me of the discussion I had with someone over a country not having a military, and simply using Nuclear weapons instead.

Not quite. I just tend to prefer blitzkrieg tactics. Again, time is of the essence, and disarmament is a pain in the butt, so instead invest only what is necessary in one's own troops and complete takeover before anyone can react.

And, note, you aren't proposing to actually free all the Yozi. What you want is one yozi free, because the Primordials didn't work in harmony, either.

Of course they don't! Several are even downright antithetical to each other. None of that matters so long as Malfeas is there to slap them around. And if Malfeas has been molded into a more manageable form, then all the better; rather, the plan is pretty awful if one does not already possess some degree of control over him.

The hubris in this statement is so ridiculous I don't even know how to respond.

I'm saying that no man can trust another with such quantities of power involved. In fact, I would hardly trust myself, but I don't have much of a choice there.

Primordial overlords are predictable, yes, but their very predictability is what makes them dangerous: SWLiHN is currently very predictable, as she will try and remove all free will. That really doesn't help from a management perspective.

Their very predictability is what makes them tractable. Malfeas wants to kill; I let him kill my enemies and create Charms that allow him to kill still more so long as they are appropriate targets. I make it so that he wants to kill my enemies more than he wants to kill bystanders. He'll still kill the bystanders, of course, but Rome wasn't built in a day.

So, your solution is self-terminating?

Somewhat. Ideally, I would somehow do away with the Celestial shards - not permanently of course - and instead endeavor to make humanity tigerblooded or some other nonsense. Following that, I do admit I would hate to die and am also well aware of how the best laid plans tend to go to waste after their creator passes on, so instead, I would lock myself and what Celestials might have joined my cause away in some pocket dimension (or several), leaving behind artifacts capable of summoning us in time of crisis or if something goes wrong with the titan overlords. I explicitly would not provide means that we might escape on our own. I know exactly what I'm like when I have control over something, and it's not pretty.

I'm not sure that's entirely true. We know that she did it around when she surrendered, but that doesn't mean it was after Theion's destruction.

Also, there is the question of how much the Exalted knew about the inner workings of Primordials. We are graced with a large amount of OOC knowledge, but it is a mistake to assume characters know it.

And, again, predictable doesn't mean safe. A Supernova is pretty predictable in the destruction it would cause. It doesn't mean we could do squat if our sun went Supernova.

The first point is admittedly speculation, but I can hardly fathom another reason why she might change sides. Except perhaps that she puts the good of Creation above the hierarchy, which is more Gaia's theme.

The Sids actually ran errands in Yu-Shan during the Time of Glory, all the while spying on the Primordials. In fact:

A few of the Maidens’ Chosen say they remember wondering whether rebellion against the Primordials was really such a good idea. What could come of slaying the very authors of Creation?

The gameline's current direction is going a different place entirely, but early lines like this aren't quite retconned yet.

Now I agree that no plan is ever fool-proof, but a properly-educated and reformed (perhaps literally) Tyrant and court is vastly superior to any medley of lazy gods and squabbling humans. And like I said, the Celestials would be removed upon successful completion of the plan but could be summoned back if the plan falls to pieces (because of TED, Neverborn, whatever). There are few surprise attacks quite like the spontaneous appearance of several Elder Celestials.

This, incidentally, is my main problem with Gesh's view.

I do actually agree with the aforementioned statement. But I am also largely utilitarian in perspective. The utility of happiness for the infinite first circle simply outweighs the utility of such for the millions of victors of the War. Further, the Deathlords - a mere fraction of the countless Celestial incarnations and free of the (alleged) Curse - generate vast amounts of negativity such that they've managed to undo the entire First Age; better to eliminate the Exalted before any living Solaroid gets some bright ideas. Of course, GSPs are the ones most likely to go off the deep end.

On an unrelated note, my name actually comes from that one character in some of the Inuyasha filler that says nothing but "GEEEEEESSSHHH!" all the time, combined with the "Gen" that was a common thread in several older names.

[Rikandur Azebol]

I am of an opinion that Exalted dissed Swilly just for the same reason why Autobot fled from his "allies". Swilly, after being sworn to proper hierarchy, would be organically unable to go against such. And Sids were spying for long time on them making argument about "they don't know if they are trustworthy" rather invalid.

Personally I kind of like Gunstar, because Theion didn't wimped out and surrendered but struck back. Although I like Autochton, he kind of deserved the mistreatment from the Exalted. But I also like Viator more than UCS .

And there are things that aren't Creatures of Darkness, even though they should be.

Like Raksha.

Unshaped are. The justification that Playable Raksha aren't is that UCS just doesn't care what they do in Creation dismissing them as inconsequential. And they have to eat because of Laws of Creation. They eat human souls also because of laws of Creation. Do You hate sharks ?

[Turalisj]

Ghosts and Demons are still Creatures of Darkness.

Shaped Raksha shouldn't get a free pass.

[Rikandur Azebol]

And Ghosts are inherently more dangerous to Creation than Raksha. Blame not the Raksha, but the "moral" overlord for being "perfectly" lazy.

I too, think that normal Raksha should have some sort of Creature of Wyld moniker making them more vulnerable to anti-Wyld attacks.

But I also think that Raksha are retribution/immune system reaction on mankind who were abusing Wyld for so long with impunity, for petty gains.

[Turalisj]

Bull**** that Ghosts are more dangerous than Raksha. Ghosts never launched a massive crusade into Creation.

[Doran]

Didn't the Deathlords, who are ghosts, encourage that to happen, as well as the 90% of humanity dead?

I guess Sol knows that all Ghosts are not evil and he can apply his COD powers to individual Deathlords, but I guess if he does the Neverborn can just keep switching their powers to new Ghosts.

By the way, what happened to the Po soul / Hungry ghost before the Primordial war?

[Hiro Protagonest]

By the way, what happened to the Po soul / Hungry ghost before the Primordial war?

It reincarnated. It never says anywhere "Po souls don't reincarnate" (but just for the record, I don't have CoCD: Underworld).

[Rhyvurg]

Thing about the Unconquered Sun (as I understand it at least, so this could be wrong) is that yes, he encompasses perfect Virtue, but the 4 Virtues aren't inherently a good thing; high Compassion breeds undying love & murderous obsession equally, etc.

And as for morality, Creatures of Darkness are made so by a Charm that he can use on anyone he sees fit, even the God of Rainbows & Ridiculously Cute Baby Animals if they get on his bad side. His morality is that what he says is right is what's right. He's not especially objective, as far as supernatural enforcers of righteousness go.

But because is IS a god of perfect virtue, just because he can name anything a CoD does not mean he will. Like, Superman has the means to easily destroy the world. Does anyone worry he might?

EDIT: Anyone besides Batman. Because Batman's a douche.

And there are things that aren't Creatures of Darkness, even though they should be.

Like Raksha.

Raksha aren't evil though, technically their cruelty is the result of innocence, and from their point of view Creation is the evil one.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Raksha aren't evil though, technically their cruelty is the result of innocence, and from their point of view Creation is the evil one.

Ghosts aren't necessarily evil either, especially from their point of view. In fact, I find it rather odd that Hun ghosts have a blanket CoD on them. Even certain demons, like Neomah, are questionable.

[Volthawk]

Raksha aren't evil though, technically their cruelty is the result of innocence, and from their point of view Creation is the evil one.

Still a lot more dangerous for Creation than most ghosts.