I want AD&D 2nd Edition with cleaned up math

[ken-do-nim]

I didn't read every last post in the thread, but ...

I totally agree that ascending armor class makes for a cleaner game, therefore the original title of this thread "2E with cleaned up math" is a perfectly reasonable goal. What really gets my goat is people who say the reason they don't play AD&D is because of descending ac, because it's just such a little thing. People never - well, almost never - talk about the real differences between AD&D and 3E like the power curve, character builds, speed of play, etc.

Can you imagine that there are people out there who say, "I can't play AD&D because I can't do subtraction" and yet are capable of planning out a 20 level build drawing from 60 different sourcebooks?

[Crow]

I didn't read every last post in the thread, but ...

I totally agree that ascending armor class makes for a cleaner game, therefore the original title of this thread "2E with cleaned up math" is a perfectly reasonable goal. What really gets my goat is people who say the reason they don't play AD&D is because of descending ac, because it's just such a little thing. People never - well, almost never - talk about the real differences between AD&D and 3E like the power curve, character builds, speed of play, etc.

Can you imagine that there are people out there who say, "I can't play AD&D because I can't do subtraction" and yet are capable of planning out a 20 level build drawing from 60 different sourcebooks?

Quoted for awesome.

[Grac]

I didn't read every last post in the thread, but ...

I totally agree that ascending armor class makes for a cleaner game, therefore the original title of this thread "2E with cleaned up math" is a perfectly reasonable goal. What really gets my goat is people who say the reason they don't play AD&D is because of descending ac, because it's just such a little thing. People never - well, almost never - talk about the real differences between AD&D and 3E like the power curve, character builds, speed of play, etc.

Can you imagine that there are people out there who say, "I can't play AD&D because I can't do subtraction" and yet are capable of planning out a 20 level build drawing from 60 different sourcebooks?

Very much this.

[Matthew]

Ha, ha. That is a pretty funny jibe.

Anyway, just to be clear about simplicity for Yora:

AD&D: 1D20 + Modifiers + AC ≥ THAC0
D20/3E: 1D20 + Modifiers + BAB ≥ AC

That is all there is to the formula. All they did with D20 was change the way the numbers were derived so that the modifiers applied to "attack" and "defence" values that both scaled upwards.

In AD&D, THAC0 is a target number, the lower the better for the attacker. AC is a modifier, the lower the better for the defender.

In D20/3E, AC is a target number, the higher the better for the defender. BAB is a modifier, the better the higher for the attacker.

[Yora]

I did some working with the Tables and came up with this. This is only directly transscribed to a d20 system. Based on that, one could remove all kinds of irregularities and redundancies.

Ability Scores

Spoiler

Show

Strength
{table=head]Score|Hit Prob.|Dmg. Adj.|Carry|Max. Press|Open Doors|Bend Bars/Lift Gates
1|-5|-4|1|3|+0|-
2|-3|-2|1|5|+0|-
3|-3|-1|5|10|+1|-
4|-2|-1|10|25|+1|-
5|-1|+0|10|25|+2|-
6|+0|+0|20|55|+3|-
7|+0|+0|20|55|+3|-
8|+0|+0|35|90|+4|+0
9|+0|+0|35|90|+4|+0
10|+0|+0|40|115|+5|+0
11|+0|+0|40|115|+5|+0
12|+0|+0|45|140|+8|+1
13|+0|+0|45|140|+8|+1
14|+0|+0|55|170|+9|+1
15|+0|+0|55|170|+9|+1
16|+0|+1|70|195|+10|+2
17|+1|+1|85|220|+11|+3
18|+1|+2|110|255|+12|+3
19*|+1|+3|135|280|+13|+4
20*|+2|+3|160|305|+14|+5[/table]
*18 (01-50) and 18 (51-75) have been relabled as 19 and 20.

Open Doors: 1d20 + Bonus vs. DC 20
Bend Bars: 1d20 + Bonus vs. DC 20 (- = impossible)

Dexterity
{table=head]Score|Reaction|Ranged Atk.|AC Bonus
1|-6|-6|-5
2|-4|-4|-5
3|-3|-3|-4
4|-2|-2|-3
5|-1|-1|-2
6|+0|+0|-1
7|+0|+0|+0
8|+0|+0|+0
9|+0|+0|+0
10|+0|+0|+0
11|+0|+0|+0
12|+0|+0|+0
13|+0|+0|+0
14|+0|+0|+0
15|+0|+0|+1
16|+1|+1|+2
17|+2|+2|+3
18|+2|+2|+4
19|+3|+3|+4
20|+3|+3|+4[/table]

Constitution
{table=head]Score|Hit Points|System Shock|Resur. Survival|Poison Save|Regeneration
1|-3|25%|30%|-2|-
2|-2|30%|35%|-1|-
3|-2|35%|40%|+0|-
4|-1|40%|45%|+0|-
5|-1|45%|50%|+0|-
6|-1|50%|55%|+0|-
7|+0|55%|60%|+0|-
8|+0|60%|65%|+0|-
9|+0|65%|70%|+0|-
10|+0|70%|75%|+0|-
11|+0|75%|80%|+0|-
12|+0|80%|85%|+0|-
13|+0|85%|90%|+0|-
14|+0|88%|92%|+0|-
15|+1|90%|94%|+0|-
16|+2|95%|96%|+0|-
17|+2 (+3)*|97%|98%|+0|-
18|+2 (+4)*|99%|100%|+0|-
19|+2 (+5)*|99%|100%|+1|-
20|+2 (+5)*|99%|100%|+1|1/6 Turns[/table]

Intelligence
{table=head]Score|Languages|Spell Level|% to Learn Spell|Max. Spells/Level|Illusion Immunity
1|0*|-|-|-|-
2|1|-|-|-|-
3|1|-|-|-|-
4|1|-|-|-|-
5|1|-|-|-|-
6|1|-|-|-|-
7|1|-|-|-|-
8|1|-|-|-|-
9|2|4th|35%|6|-
10|2|5th|40%|7|-
11|2|5th|45%|7|-
12|3|6th|50%|7|-
13|3|6th|55%|9|-
14|4|7th|60%|9|-
15|4|7th|65%|11|-
16|5|8th|70%|11|-
17|6|8th|75%|14|-
18|7|9th|85%|18|-
19|8|9th|95%|All|1st level
20|9|9th|96%|All|2nd level[/table]

Wisdom
{table=head]Score|Magical Def. Adj.|Bonus Spells|Spell Failure|Spell Immunity
1|-6|-|80%|-
2|-4|-|60%|-
3|-3|-|50%|-
4|-2|-|45%|-
5|-1|-|40%|-
6|-1|-|35%|-
7|-1|-|30%|-
8|+0|-|25%|-
9|+0|0|20%|-
10|+0|0|15%|-
11|+0|0|10%|-
12|+0|0|5%|-
13|+0|1st|0%|-
14|+0|1st|0%|-
15|+1|2nd|0%|-
16|+2|2nd|0%|-
17|+3|3rd|0%|-
18|+4|4th|0%|-
19|+4|1st, 3rd|0%|cause fear, charm person, command, friends, hypnotism
20|+4|2nd, 4th|0%|forget, hold person, ray of enfeeblement, scare[/table]

Charisma
{table=head]Score|Max. Henchmen|Loyalty Base|Reaction Adj.
1|0|-8|-7
2|1|-7|-6
3|1|-6|-5
4|1|-5|-4
5|2|-4|-3
6|2|-3|-2
7|3|-2|-1
8|3|-1|0
9|4|0|0
10|4|0|0
11|4|0|0
12|5|0|0
13|5|0|+1
14|6|+1|+2
15|7|+3|+3
16|8|+4|+5
17|10|+6|+6
18|15|+8|+7
19|20|+10|+8
20|25|+12|+9[/table]

Classes

Spoiler

Show

Saving Throws:
1d20 + Save vs. DC 20

PPD = Paralyzation, Poison, and Death Magic
RSW = Rod, Staff, and Wand
PP = Petrification and Polymorph
BW = Breath Weapon
Spell = Spells

Warriors
{table=head]Level|Fighter|Paladin/Ranger|HD (d10)|Atk/Round|BAB||PPD|RSW|PP|BW|Spell
1|0|0|1|1|+0||+6|+4|+5|+3|+3
2|2,000|2,250|2|1|+1||+6|+4|+5|+3|+3
3|4,000|4,500|3|1|+2||+7|+5|+6|+4|+4
4|8,000|9,000|4|1|+3||+7|+5|+6|+4|+4
5|16,000|18,000|5|1|+4||+9|+7|+8|+7|+6
6|32,000|36,000|6|1|+5||+9|+7|+8|+7|+6
7|64,000|75,000|7|3/2|+6||+10|+8|+9|+8|+7
8|125,000|150,000|8|3/2|+7||+10|+8|+9|+8|+7
9|250,000|300,000|9|3/2|+8||+12|+10|+11|+11|+9
10|500,000|600,000|9+3|3/2|+9||+12|+10|+11|+11|+9
11|750,000|900,000|9+6|3/2|+10||+13|+11|+12|+12|+10
12|1,000,000|1,200,000|9+9|3/2|+11||+13|+11|+12|+12|+10
13|1,250,000|1,500,000|9+12|2|+12||+15|+13|+14|+15 |+12
14|1,500,000|1,800,000|9+15|2|+13||+15|+13|+14|+15 |+12
15|1,750,000|2,100,000|9+18|2|+14||+16|+14|+15|+16 |+13
16|2,000,000|2,400,000|9+21|2|+15||+16|+14|+15|+16 |+13
17|2,250,000|2,700,000|9+24|2|+16||+17|+15|+16|+16 |+14
18|2,500,000|3,000,000|9+27|2|+17||+17|+15|+16|+16 |+14
19|2,750,000|3,300,000|9+30|2|+18||+17|+15|+16|+16 |+14
20|3,000,000|3,600,000|9+33|2|+19||+17|+15|+16|+16 |+14[/table]

Wizard
{table=head]Level|Mage|HD (d4)|BAB||PPD|RSW|PP|BW|Spell||1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1|0|1|+0||+6|+9|+7|+5|+8||1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2|2,500|2|+0||+6|+9|+7|+5|+8||2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3|5,000|3|+0||+6|+9|+7|+5|+8||2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4|10,000|4|+1||+6|+9|+7|+5|+8||3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5|20,000|5|+1||+6|+9|+7|+5|+8||4|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-
6|40,000|6|+1||+7|+11|+9|+7|+10||4|2|2|-|-|-|-|-|-
7|60,000|7|+2||+7|+11|+9|+7|+10||4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-
8|90,000|8|+2||+7|+11|+9|+7|+10||4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-
9|135,000|9|+2||+7|+11|+9|+7|+10||4|3|3|2|1|-|-|-|-
10|250,000|10|+3||+7|+11|+9|+7|+10||4|4|3|2|2|-|-|-|-
11|375,000|10+1|+3||+9|+13|+11|+9|+12||4|4|4|3|3|-|-|-|-
12|750,000|10+2|+3||+9|+13|+11|+9|+12||4|4|4|4|4|1 |-|-|-
13|1,125,000|10+3|+4||+9|+13|+11|+9|+12||5|5|5|4|4 |2|-|-|-
14|1,500,000|10+4|+4||+9|+13|+11|+9|+12||5|5|5|4|4 |2|1|-|-
15|1,875,000|10+5|+4||+9|+13|+11|+9|+12||5|5|5|5|5 |2|1|-|-
16|2,250,000|10+6|+5||+10|+15|+13|+11|+14||5|5|5|5 |5|3|2|1|-
17|2,625,000|10+7|+5||+10|+15|+13|+11|+14||5|5|5|5 |5|3|3|2|-
18|3,000,000|10+8|+5||+10|+15|+13|+11|+14||5|5|5|5 |5|3|3|2|1
19|3,375,000|10+9|+6||+10|+15|+13|+11|+14||5|5|5|5 |5|3|3|3|1
20|3,750,000|10+10|+6||+10|+15|+13|+11|+14||5|5|5| 5|5|4|3|3|2[/table]

Priests
{table=head]Level|Cleric|Druid|HD (d8)|BAB||PPD|RSW|PP|BW|Spell||1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th
1|0|0|1|+0||+10|+6|+7|+4|+5||1|-|-|-|-|-|-
2|1,500|2,000|2|+0||+10|+6|+7|+4|+5||2|-|-|-|-|-|-
3|3,000|4,000|3|+0||+10|+6|+7|+4|+5||2|1|-|-|-|-|-
4|6,000|7,500|4|+2||+11|+7|+8|+5|+6||3|2|-|-|-|-|-
5|13,000|12,000|5|+2||+11|+7|+8|+5|+6||3|3|1|-|-|-|-
6|27,500|20,000|6|+2||+11|+7|+8|+5|+6||3|3|2|-|-|-|-
7|55,000|35,000|7|+4||+13|+9|+10|+7|+8||3|3|2|1|-|-|-
8|110,000|60,000|8|+4||+13|+9|+10|+7|+8||3|3|3|2|-|-|-
9|225,000|90,000|9|+4||+13|+9|+10|+7|+8||4|4|3|2|1 |-|-
10|450,000|125,000|9+2|+6||+14|+10|+11|+8|+9||4|4| 3|3|2|-|-
11|675,00|200,000|9+4|+6||+14|+10|+11|+8|+9||5|4|4 |3|2|1|-
12|900,000|300,000|9+6|+6||+14|+10|+11|+8|+9||6|5| 5|3|2|2|-
13|1,125,000|750,000|9+8|+8||+15|+11|+12|+9|+10||6 |6|6|4|2|2|-
14|1,350,000|1,500,000|9+10|+8||+15|+11|+12|+9|+10 ||6|6|6|5|3|2|1
15|1,575,000|3,000,000|9+12|+8||+15|+11|+12|+9|+10 ||6|6|6|6|4|2|1
16|1,800,000|3,500,000|9+14|+10||+16|+12|+13|+10|+ 11||7|7|7|6|4|3|1
17|2,025,000|500,000|9+16|+10||+16|+12|+13|+10|+11 ||7|7|7|7|5|3|2
18|2,250,000|1,000,000|9+18|+10||+16|+12|+13|+10|+ 11||8|8|8|8|6|4|2
19|2,475,000|1,500,000|9+20|+11||+18|+14|+15|+12|+ 13||9|9|8|8|6|4|2
20|2,700,000|2,000,000|9+22|+11||+18|+14|+15|+12|+ 13||9|9|9|8|7|5|2[/table]

Rogues
{table=head]Level|Bard/Thief|HD (d6)|BAB|Backst.||PPD|RSW|PP|BW|Spell||1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th
1|0|1|+0|x2||+7|+6|+8|+4|+5||-|-|-|-|-|-
2|1,250|2|+0|x2||+7|+6|+8|+4|+5||1|-|-|-|-|-
3|2,500|3|+1|x2||+7|+6|+8|+4|+5||2|-|-|-|-|-
4|5,000|4|+1|x2||+7|+6|+8|+4|+5||2|1|-|-|-|-
5|10,000|5|+2|x3||+8|+8|+9|+5|+7||3|1|-|-|-|-
6|20,000|6|+2|x3||+8|+8|+9|+5|+7||3|2|-|-|-|-
7|40,000|7|+3|x3||+8|+8|+9|+5|+7||3|2|1|-|-|-
8|70,000|8|+3|x3||+8|+8|+9|+5|+7||3|3|1|-|-|-
9|110,000|9|+4|x4||+9|+10|+10|+6|+9||3|3|2|-|-|-
10|160,000|10|+4|x4||+9|+10|+10|+6|+9||3|3|2|1|-|-
11|220,000|10+2|+5|x4||+9|+10|+10|+6|+9||3|3|2|1|-|-
12|440,000|10+4|+5|x4||+9|+10|+10|+6|+9||3|3|2|2|-|-
13|660,000|10+6|+6|x5||+10|+12|+11|+7|+11||3|3|3|2 |1|-
14|880,000|10+8|+6|x5||+10|+12|+11|+7|+11||3|3|3|3 |1|-
15|1,100,000|10+10|+7|x5||+10|+12|+11|+7|+11||3|3| 3|3|2|-
16|1,320,000|10+12|+7|x5||+10|+12|+11|+7|+11||4|3| 3|3|2|1
17|1,540,000|10+14|+8|x5||+11|+14|+12|+8|+13||4|4| 3|3|3|1
18|1,760,000|10+16|+8|x5||+11|+14|+12|+8|+13||4|4| 4|3|3|2
19|1,980,000|10+18|+9|x5||+11|+14|+12|+8|+13||4|4| 4|4|3|2
20|2,200,000|10+20|+9|x5||+11|+14|+12|+8|+13||4|4| 4|4|4|3[/table]

Thief Skills

Spoiler

Show

d100 converted to d20
Base score set to 0 where possible, armor adjustment set to "No armor = 0"

{table=head]Skill|Thief|Bard|Dwarf|Elf_|Gnome|Half-Elf|Halfling
Pick Pockets|0|-1||+1||+2|+1
Open Locks|0|x|+2|-1|+1||+1
Find Traps|0|x|+3||+2||+1
Move Silently|0|x||+1|+1||+2
Hide in Shadows|0|x||+2|+1|+1|+3
Detect Noise|3|4||+1|+2||+1
Climb Walls|14|12|-2||-3||-3
Read Languages|0|1|-1||||-1[/table]

Dexterity Modifiers
{table=head]Dexterity|Pick Pockets|Open Locks|Find Traps|Move Silently|Hide in Shadows
9|+1|+0|-1|+0|+0
10|+2|+1|-1|+1|+1
11|+3|+2|+0|+2|+2
12|+4||+1|+3|
13||||+4|
14|||||
15|||||
16||+3|||
17|+5|+4||+5|+3
18|+6|+5|+2|+6|+4
19|+7|+6|+3|+7|+5[/table]

Armor Modifiers
{table=head]Skill|Leather|Studded Leather|Elven Chain|Chain
Pick Pockets|-1|-7|-5|-15
Open Locks|-|-2|-1|-11
Find Traps|-|-2|-1|-11
Move Silently|-2|-6|-4|-14
Hide in Shadows|-1|-5|-3|-13
Detect Noise|-|-2|-1|-11
Climb Walls |-2|-8|-6|-16
Read Languages|-|-|-|-[/table]

I think the great idea of d20 is the DC 20 mechanic. AD&D did not have that and it's a rather vital thing to create a unified system of mechanics. Without it, it's not suprising that you have lots of roll over, roll under, bonus is good, penalty is good mechanics.

[hamlet]

Strikes me that you're really not particularly interested in playing AD&D at all but would rather play a cleaned up version of D20.

[Grac]

I did some working with the Tables and came up with this. This is only directly transscribed to a d20 system. Based on that, one could remove all kinds of irregularities and redundancies.
...
I think the great idea of d20 is the DC 20 mechanic. AD&D did not have that and it's a rather vital thing to create a unified system of mechanics. Without it, it's not suprising that you have lots of roll over, roll under, bonus is good, penalty is good mechanics.

well it helps to know that the aim is a 'dc20', since that gives an answer to the question 'what do thieves and saves roll', BUT, and this may seem nit picky, the 'great idea' of d20 was meant to be the uniformed mechanic: roll d20, add modifiers, and if it beats the DC, then success! There is no assumption of a DC of 20, rather a DC of 10 seems to be the core assumption of a 'reasonable difficulty for a normal person' and everything based around that.

[Yora]

Okay, true. But 20 makes a good default if you use a d20.

Open Doors in AD&D works as "roll a number that is no greater than x" and the list starts with 1. Rolling no greater than 1 on a d20 means there's only a single number on the die that will get you a success. If you switch from roll low to roll high, a single number would be "20", so the base DC would have to be 20.
You could also make it DC 10 and have the list start in the negatives. But for Open Doors you would have a modifier of +0 only at a strength of 16. With a strength of 15 or anything below it, you would have a negative number on the chart. And since BAB and base save bonuses never go into the negatives, setting DC 20 as default looks a bit neater. But it's purely cosmetic.

But you're right, having any DC at all is really the impoartant part.

Strikes me that you're really not particularly interested in playing AD&D at all but would rather play a cleaned up version of D20.

That strikes you wrong. As the first post of the thread lines out, the goal is to have a version of D&D that has the same elements and the same probabilities for success on the same types of actions, but with a math that is much easier to explain and faster to memorize. If you had a computer program that makes all the calculations and only tells you if the roll was a success or a failure, there would be no way to tell if it used the original tables or the transcribed tables. The results would always be exactly the same.

Now with the cleaned up version, it's a lot easier to see what's actually going on, which makes it a lot easier to actually make improvements to the system. Since the charts seem to have been made pretty much at random with no preconception of the notion of balance, there isn't really anything to actually break. A lot of the irregularities appear to be actually typos.

[hamlet]

That strikes you wrong. As the first post of the thread lines out, the goal is to have a version of D&D that has the same elements and the same probabilities for success on the same types of actions, but with a math that is much easier to explain and faster to memorize. If you had a computer program that makes all the calculations and only tells you if the roll was a success or a failure, there would be no way to tell if it used the original tables or the transcribed tables. The results would always be exactly the same.

Now with the cleaned up version, it's a lot easier to see what's actually going on, which makes it a lot easier to actually make improvements to the system. Since the charts seem to have been made pretty much at random with no preconception of the notion of balance, there isn't really anything to actually break. A lot of the irregularities appear to be actually typos.

Can't really remember anybody who had any trouble figuring out what was going on with the AD&D system until recently, actually.

And to your first point, no, not really. The way the system works is a very large part of how AD&D plays and feels and why it feels different, dramatically so I would argue, than D20 with it's cleaned up and unified mechanics.

But, if you're looking forAD&D with cleaned up math, then you should really take some time and investigate Castles and Crusades. It is, essentially, what you described in your long post with the new tables and numbers.

[Yora]

Then I and everyone I ever played with is just stupid, and when these proposed conversions are applied to the game it's no longer AD&D. I can live with that.

Anyway. Here are the tables with converted math and adjustments to make the progressions more linear. All changes marked in bold.

AC starts at 10 and you simply add anything that improves armor and substract anything that lowers armor.
To convert a postive AC, substract it from 20. To convert a negative AC, add the value to 20.
To convert THAC0 to AB, substract the THAC0 from 20.

And for everything else:
If the target of an effect benefits from it, it's a positive bonus added to the roll or static DC.
If the target of an effect is hindered by it, it's a negative penalty substracted from the rool or static DC.

Ability Scores

Spoiler

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Strength
{table=head]Score|Hit Prob.|Dmg. Adj.|Carry|Max. Press|Open Doors|Bend Bars/Lift Gates
1|-5|-4|1|3|+0|-
2|-3|-2|1|5|+0|-
3|-3|-1|5|10|+1|-
4|-2|-1|10|25|+1|-
5|-1|+0|10|25|+2|-
6|+0|+0|20|55|+2|-
7|+0|+0|20|55|+3|-
8|+0|+0|35|90|+3|+0
9|+0|+0|35|90|+4|+0
10|+0|+0|40|115|+4|+0
11|+0|+0|40|115|+5|+0
12|+0|+0|45|140|+6|+1
13|+0|+0|45|140|+7|+1
14|+0|+0|55|170|+8|+1
15|+0|+0|55|170|+9|+2
16|+0|+1|70|195|+10|+2
17|+1|+1|85|220|+11|+3
18|+1|+2|110|255|+12|+4
19*|+1|+3|135|280|+13|+5
20*|+2|+4|160|305|+14|+6[/table]
Why does +3 to damage adjustment appear twice, while with the exception of 1 every number increases by 1 every level as the table continues for ten more rows in the PHB? Typo?
Open doors and Bend bars is completely arbitrary, so I change it to at least lineary arbitrary. No number was changed by more than 1.

Dexterity
{table=head]Score|Reaction|Ranged Atk.|AC Bonus
1|-5|-5|-6
2|-4|-4|-5
3|-3|-3|-4
4|-2|-2|-3
5|-1|-1|-2
6|+0|+0|-1
7|+0|+0|+0
8|+0|+0|+0
9|+0|+0|+0
10|+0|+0|+0
11|+0|+0|+0
12|+0|+0|+0
13|+0|+0|+0
14|+0|+0|+0
15|+0|+0|+1
16|+1|+1|+2
17|+2|+2|+3
18|+2|+2|+4
19|+3|+3|+4
20|+3|+3|+4[/table]
At Dex 1, modifiers for Reaction and Ranged Attackes reduced by 1 and modifier to AC improved by 1. This makes the table more regular and was probably a typo. Also, Dex 1 is impossible anyway.

Constitution
{table=head]Score|Hit Points|System Shock|Resur. Survival
1|-3|25%|30%
2|-2|30%|35%
3|-2|35%|40%
4|-1|40%|45%
5|-1|45%|50%
6|-1|50%|55%
7|+0|55%|60%
8|+0|60%|65%
9|+0|65%|70%
10|+0|70%|75%
11|+0|75%|80%
12|+0|80%|85%
13|+0|85%|90%
14|+0|88%|92%
15|+1|90%|94%
16|+2|95%|96%
17|+2 (+3)*|97%|98%
18|+2 (+4)*|99%|100%
19|+2 (+5)*|99%|100%
20|+2 (+5)*|99%|100%[/table]
Regeneration applies only at Con 20, which is basically impossible for PCs and would never show up. So it simply gets dropped.
Save Modifiers to Poison applies only at Con under 3 or over 18. Since it virtually never applies to PCs and the diffirence is miniscule, it also gets dropped.

Intelligence
{table=head]Score|Languages|Spell Level|% to Learn Spell|Max. Spells/Level|Illusion Immunity
1|0*|-|-|-|-
2|1|-|-|-|-
3|1|-|-|-|-
4|1|-|-|-|-
5|1|-|-|-|-
6|1|-|-|-|-
7|1|-|-|-|-
8|1|-|-|-|-
9|2|4th|35%|6|-
10|2|5th|40%|6|-
11|2|5th|45%|7|-
12|3|6th|50%|8|-
13|3|6th|55%|9|-
14|4|7th|60%|10|-
15|4|7th|65%|11|-
16|5|8th|70%|12|-
17|6|8th|75%|14|-
18|7|9th|85%|18|-
19|8|9th|95%|All|1st level
20|9|9th|96%|All|2nd level[/table]
Smothed out the progression for max spells known per level

Wisdom
{table=head]Score|Magical Def. Adj.|Bonus Spells|Spell Failure|Spell Immunity
1|-6|-|80%|-
2|-4|-|60%|-
3|-3|-|50%|-
4|-2|-|45%|-
5|-1|-|40%|-
6|-1|-|35%|-
7|-1|-|30%|-
8|+0|-|25%|-
9|+0|0|20%|-
10|+0|0|15%|-
11|+0|0|10%|-
12|+0|0|5%|-
13|+0|1st|0%|-
14|+0|1st|0%|-
15|+1|2nd|0%|-
16|+2|2nd|0%|-
17|+3|3rd|0%|-
18|+4|4th|0%|-
19|+4|1st, 3rd|0%|cause fear, charm person, command, friends, hypnotism
20|+4|2nd, 4th|0%|forget, hold person, ray of enfeeblement, scare[/table]

Charisma
{table=head]Score|Max. Henchmen|Loyalty Base|Reaction Adj.
1|0|-8|-7
2|1|-7|-6
3|1|-6|-5
4|1|-5|-4
5|2|-4|-3
6|2|-3|-2
7|3|-2|-1
8|3|-1|0
9|4|0|0
10|4|0|0
11|5|0|0
12|5|0|0
13|6|0|+1
14|6|+1|+2
15|7|+3|+3
16|8|+4|+4
17|10|+6|+5
18|15|+8|+6
19|20|+10|+7
20|25|+12|+8[/table]
Smothing out number of henchmen and reducing reaction adjustment for very high charisma by one. Alternatively raising reaction adjustment for CHA 12-15 by 1.

Classes

Spoiler

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Warriors
{table=head]Level|Fighter|Paladin/Ranger|HD (d10)|Atk/Round|BAB||PPD|RSW|PP|BW|Spell
1|0|0|1|1|+1||+6|+4|+5|+3|+3
2|2,000|2,250|2|1|+2||+6|+4|+5|+3|+3
3|4,000|4,500|3|1|+3||+7|+5|+6|+5|+4
4|8,000|9,000|4|1|+4||+7|+5|+6|+5|+4
5|16,000|18,000|5|1|+5||+9|+7|+8|+7|+6
6|32,000|36,000|6|1|+6||+9|+7|+8|+7|+6
7|64,000|75,000|7|3/2|+7||+10|+8|+9|+9|+7
8|125,000|150,000|8|3/2|+8||+10|+8|+9|+9|+7
9|250,000|300,000|9|3/2|+9||+12|+10|+11|+11|+9
10|500,000|600,000|9+3|3/2|+10||+12|+10|+11|+11|+9
11|750,000|900,000|9+6|3/2|+11||+13|+11|+13|+13|+10
12|1,000,000|1,200,000|9+9|3/2|+12||+13|+11|+12|+13|+10
13|1,250,000|1,500,000|9+12|2|+13||+15|+13|+14|+15|+12
14|1,500,000|1,800,000|9+15|2|+14||+15|+13|+14|+15|+12
15|1,750,000|2,100,000|9+18|2|+15||+16|+14|+15|+16|+13
16|2,000,000|2,400,000|9+21|2|+16||+16|+14|+15|+16|+13
17|2,250,000|2,700,000|9+24|2|+17||+17|+15|+16|+16|+14
18|2,500,000|3,000,000|9+27|2|+18||+17|+15|+16|+16|+14
19|2,750,000|3,300,000|9+30|2|+19||+17|+15|+16|+16|+14
20|3,000,000|3,600,000|9+33|2|+20||+17|+15|+16|+16|+14[/table]
Bumped up BAB by +1 to give warriors a little edge at the beginning. Also looks a little bit nicer than +0 to +19
Increased Breath Weapon save by +1 at a few levels for linearity.

Wizard
{table=head]Level|Mage|HD (d4)|BAB||PPD|RSW|PP|BW|Spell||1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1|0|1|+0||+6|+9|+7|+5|+8||1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2|2,500|2|+0||+6|+9|+7|+5|+8||2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3|5,000|3|+0||+6|+9|+7|+5|+8||2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4|10,000|4|+1||+6|+10|+8|+6|+9||3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5|20,000|5|+1||+6|+10|+8|+6|+9||3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-
6|40,000|6|+1||+7|+11|+9|+7|+10||3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-
7|60,000|7|+2||+7|+11|+9|+7|+10||4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-
8|90,000|8|+2||+7|+11|+9|+7|+10||4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-
9|135,000|9|+2||+7|+12|+10|+8|+11||4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-
10|250,000|10|+3||+7|+12|+10|+8|+11||4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-
11|375,000|10+1|+3||+9|+13|+11|+9|+12||5|4|4|3|2|1 |-|-|-
12|750,000|10+2|+3||+9|+13|+11|+9|+12||5|4|4|3|3|2 |-|-|-
13|1,125,000|10+3|+4||+9|+13|+11|+9|+12||5|5|4|4|3 |2|1|-|-
14|1,500,000|10+4|+4||+9|+14|+12|+10|+13||5|5|4|4|3|3|2|-|-
15|1,875,000|10+5|+4||+9|+14|+12|+10|+13||5|5|5|4|4|3|2|1|-
16|2,250,000|10+6|+5||+10|+15|+13|+11|+14||5|5|5|4 |4|3|3|2|-
17|2,625,000|10+7|+5||+10|+15|+13|+11|+14||5|5|5|5 |4|4|3|2|1
18|3,000,000|10+8|+5||+10|+15|+13|+11|+14||5|5|5|5 |4|4|3|3|2
19|3,375,000|10+9|+6||+10|+16|+14|+12|+15||5|5|5|5|5|4|4|3|2
20|3,750,000|10+10|+6||+10|+16|+14|+12|+15||5|5|5|5|5|4|4|3|3[/table]
Smothed out save bonuses. This could have been avoided by putting everything into a single table to begin with.
The spell slots don't have any pattern at all. Changed that, but never added or substracted more than 1. Also didn't mark the changes.

Priests
{table=head]Level|Cleric|Druid|HD (d8)|BAB||PPD|RSW|PP|BW|Spell||1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th
1|0|0|1|+0|0|+10|+6|+7|+4|+5||1|-|-|-|-|-|-
2|1,500|2,000|2|+0||+10|+6|+7|+4|+5||2|-|-|-|-|-|-
3|3,000|4,500|3|+1||+10|+6|+7|+4|+5||2|1|-|-|-|-|-
4|6,000|7,500|4|+2||+11|+7|+8|+5|+6||3|2|-|-|-|-|-
5|13,000|21,500|5|+2||+11|+7|+8|+5|+6||3|2|1|-|-|-|-
6|27,500|37,000|6|+3||+11|+7|+8|+5|+6||3|3|2|-|-|-|-
7|55,000|73,500|7|+4||+13|+9|+10|+7|+8||4|3|2|1|-|-|-
8|110,000|150,000|8|+4||+13|+9|+10|+7|+8||4|3|3|2|-|-|-
9|225,000|300,000|9|+5||+13|+9|+10|+7|+8||4|4|3|2|1|-|-
10|450,000|600,000|9+2|+6||+14|+10|+11|+8|+9||5|4| 3|3|2|-|-
11|675,000|900,000|9+4|+6||+14|+10|+11|+8|+9||5|4| 4|3|2|1|-
12|900,000|1,200,000|9+6|+7||+14|+10|+11|+8|+9||5|5|4|3|3|2|-
13|1,125,000|1,500,000|9+8|+8||+16|+12|+13|+10|+11||6|5|4|4|3|2|1
14|1,350,000|1,800,000|9+10|+8||+16|+12|+13|+10|+11||6|5|5|4|3|3|2
15|1,575,000|2,100,000|9+12|+9||+16|+12|+13|+10|+11||6|6|5|4|4|3|2
16|1,800,000|2,400,000|9+14|+10||+17|+13|+14|+11|+12||7|6|5|5|4|3|3
17|2,025,000|2,700,000|9+16|+10||+17|+13|+14|+11|+12||7|6|6|5|4|4|3
18|2,250,000|3,000,000|9+18|+11||+17|+13|+14|+11|+12||7|7|6|5|5|4|3
19|2,475,000|3,300,000|9+20|+12||+18|+14|+15|+12|+13||8|7|6|6|5|4|4
20|2,700,000|3,600,000|9+22|+12||+18|+14|+15|+12|+13||8|7|7|6|5|5|4[/table]
Restored the Druid XP progression by taking the Cleric XP and multiplying every number by 1.333_. Given the results, the Cleric chart was actually build by multiplying that progression by 0.75. As a druid is a cleric with extras, that seems apropriate.
Rebuild the spells per day table.
Smothed out the BAB progression.
Increased all saves from level 13 to 18 to smoth out the progression.

Rogues
{table=head]Level|Bard/Thief|HD (d6)|BAB|Backst.||PPD|RSW|PP|BW|Spell||1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th
1|0|1|+0|x2||+7|+6|+8|+4|+5||-|-|-|-|-|-
2|1,250|2|+0|x2||+7|+6|+8|+4|+5||1|-|-|-|-|-
3|2,500|3|+1|x2||+7|+7|+8|+4|+6||2|-|-|-|-|-
4|5,000|4|+1|x2||+7|+7|+8|+4|+6||2|1|-|-|-|-
5|10,000|5|+2|x3||+8|+8|+9|+5|+7||3|1|-|-|-|-
6|20,000|6|+2|x3||+8|+8|+9|+5|+7||3|2|-|-|-|-
7|40,000|7|+3|x3||+8|+9|+9|+5|+8||3|2|1|-|-|-
8|70,000|8|+3|x3||+8|+9|+9|+5|+8||3|3|1|-|-|-
9|110,000|9|+4|x4||+9|+10|+10|+6|+9||3|3|2|-|-|-
10|160,000|10|+4|x4||+9|+10|+10|+6|+9||3|3|2|1|-|-
11|220,000|10+2|+5|x4||+9|+11|+10|+6|+10||3|3|2|1|-|-
12|440,000|10+4|+5|x4||+9|+11|+10|+6|+10||3|3|2|2|-|-
13|660,000|10+6|+6|x5||+10|+12|+11|+7|+11||3|3|3|2 |1|-
14|880,000|10+8|+6|x5||+10|+12|+11|+7|+11||3|3|3|3 |1|-
15|1,100,000|10+10|+7|x5||+10|+13|+11|+7|+12||3|3|3|3|2|-
16|1,320,000|10+12|+7|x5||+10|+13|+11|+7|+12||4|3|3|3|2|1
17|1,540,000|10+14|+8|x5||+11|+14|+12|+8|+13||4|4| 3|3|3|1
18|1,760,000|10+16|+8|x5||+11|+14|+12|+8|+13||4|4| 4|3|3|2
19|1,980,000|10+18|+9|x5||+11|+14|+12|+8|+13||4|4| 4|4|3|2
20|2,200,000|10+20|+9|x5||+11|+14|+12|+8|+13||4|4| 4|4|4|3[/table]
Smothed out save bonuses.
Left the irregularities of 1st level bard spells to make low level not harder.

Thief Skills

Spoiler

Show

d100 converted to d20
Base score set to 0 where possible, armor adjustment set to "No armor = 0"

{table=head]Skill|Thief|Bard|Dwarf|Elf_|Gnome|Half-Elf|Halfling
Pick Pockets|0|-1||+1||+2|+1
Open Locks|0|x|+2|-1|+1||+1
Find Traps|0|x|+3||+2||+1
Move Silently|0|x||+1|+1||+2
Hide in Shadows|0|x||+2|+1|+1|+3
Detect Noise|3|4||+1|+2||+1
Climb Walls|14|12|-2||-3||-3
Read Languages|0|1|-1||||-1[/table]

Dexterity Modifiers
{table=head]Dexterity|Pick Pockets|Open Locks|Find Traps|Move Silently|Hide in Shadows
9|+0|+0|+0|+0|+0
10|+1|+1|+1|+1|+1
11|+2|+2|+2|+2|+2
12|+3|+3|+3|+3|+3
13|||||
14|||||
15|||||
16|||||
17|+4|+4|+4|+4|+4
18|+5|+5|+5|+5|+5
19|+6|+6|+6|+6|+6[/table]
-1 to Pick Pockets.
Moved +3 to Open Locks from 16 to 12.
+1 to Find Traps.
Moved +4 to Move Silently from 13 to 16; -1 to Move Silently for 16 to 19.
Moved +3 to Hide in Shadows from 17 to 12; +1 to Move Silently for 17 to 19.
Looks like they just made a few miniscule changes to not make it look consistent. It may be a bit more boring to have the same chance for everything, but thieves also get their skill points to distribute after which everything changes anyway, so it doesn't matter at all.

Armor Modifiers
{table=head]Skill|Leather|Studded Leather|Elven Chain|Chain
Pick Pockets|-1|-5|-5|-15
Open Locks|-|-2|-1|-11
Find Traps|-|-2|-1|-11
Move Silently|-2|-6|-4|-14
Hide in Shadows|-1|-5|-3|-13
Detect Noise|-|-2|-1|-11
Climb Walls |-2|-6|-6|-16
Read Languages|-|-|-|-[/table]
Minor changes to studded leather.

And that's really all of the work. The equipment list could use some weeding out, but use these tables and apply the four conversion rules at the top, and your AD&D 2nd Edition is know AD&D with cleaned up math.

Unless I made a mistake, in that case speak up please.

I really have no clue about high level play in AD&D, so I also have no idea how good the XP tables are.
At 2,400,000 XP you would have Fighter 17, Paladin 16, Ranger 16, Wizard 16, Cleric 18, Druid 16, Thief 20, Bard 20. Would using the Fighter-table for everyone make a real difference?

[J.Gellert]

Too sleepy to look up exact numbers, but I assume the converted Thief skills are rolled against DC 20?

From a quick reading it all looks awesome.

I believe this deserves its own short .pdf file or blog post or something, it'd be a shame if it got lost in a simple forum post.

Added: Though to be completely fair I'd have liked it better without any "smoothing out", just to retain the basic idea of "exactly as it was, only presented better".

[hamlet]

Then I and everyone I ever played with is just stupid, and when these proposed conversions are applied to the game it's no longer AD&D. I can live with that.

I never said that, nor did I imply it, nor do I think it.

I did say, though, that I think your objections (as noted above) are based an a faulty understanding of the system, how it works, and why it works the way it works . . . and a resistance to consider that you might be incorrect.

The math is not messy or hard to understand once you understand the why of it. You might argue that you dont' like it, or that you find it counter-intuitive, but objective statements to the effect that it is hard to understand and unintuitive are, if you'll forgive my bluntness, just plain old wrong.

[Yora]

Added: Though to be completely fair I'd have liked it better without any "smoothing out", just to retain the basic idea of "exactly as it was, only presented better".

Well, we still have to purely transcribed tables. I think I'll run all the calculations again tomorrow and see if it matches. Writing the tables is by far the most work-heavy part of the process, the math is very simple. Though that wouldn't confirm if the math was actually right. But then someone else would only have to check two or three rows of every table to see if the formula was correct.

[nedz]

Your strength table is a little wrong, IIRC there are 5 catagories of percentile strength.
01%-50%
51%-75%
76%-90%
91%-99%
100%

Also the stats go up to 25, and yes it is possibly to reach those at a high enough level.

[Yora]

I cleaned that up as well.
The table is the same, I just have 18/01-50 relabled as 19, and so on.
If you really have to have super high strength for warriors, then make a special rule that warriors with a Strength of 18 have to roll 1d100 and a roll of 01-50 raises their actual Strength to 19, a roll of 51-75 raises it to 20, and so on.
Identical chances for successes in the game, less confusing tables.
Unless you are a rogue or a priest with a Strength of 18 and find a way to raise it by +1. But in that case I don't think it makes any sense to have your carrying capacity jump from 110 to 485, your hit probability from +1 to +3, and your damage bonus from +2 to +7, and so on.
Once more: What were they thinking?

I croped the tables at 20, since I have no clue what the last lines could ever be used for, but I still have them in my documents.

Also: Do you think "Advanced d20" would be a good name for a reference document?

[nedz]

OK but a 1st level fighter can start with 18-100% which would be 23 on your table. Giants start with even higher strength, and its quite easy to get high strength with items.

[Matthew]

AC starts at 10 and you simply add anything that improves armor and substract anything that lowers armor.
To convert a postive AC, substract it from 20. To convert a negative AC, add the value to 20.
To convert THAC0 to AB, substract the THAC0 from 20.

And for everything else:
If the target of an effect benefits from it, it's a positive bonus added to the roll or static DC.
If the target of an effect is hindered by it, it's a negative penalty substracted from the rool or static DC.

Unless I made a mistake, in that case speak up please.

Okay, this is a typical mistake. In AD&D THAC0 starts at 20 and Armour Class at 10, which means that you need to roll 10+ to hit AC 10 (55%). In D20 if you have AC start at 10 and make BAB 1 you need a 9+ to hit (60%). So, basically AC should either begin at 11 or BAB at 0 if you want the AD&D probabilities.

I would point out as well that AD&D/1E uses a "21 point scale", which is to say "0-20" (sort of). D20 and AD&D/2E use a 19 point scale, which is to say the probability range is 5% to 95% (20 always hits, 1 always misses). Interestingly, AC uses a 21 point scale (−10 to 10), as does level progressions (0-20).

[Yora]

Here is the first draft of the "raw" transcribed tables, without any changes except calling 18/01-50 as 19 now, and so on.
Not sure if everyone can download, if not notify me and I'll upload it somewhere else.

Okay, this is a typical mistake. In AD&D THAC0 starts at 20 and Armour Class at 10, which means that you need to roll 10+ to hit AC 10 (55%). In D20 if you have AC start at 10 and make BAB 1 you need a 9+ to hit (60%). So, basically AC should either begin at 11 or BAB at 0 if you want the AD&D probabilities.

I think I did this. In the "second version" I did move BAB for Warriors up one row on purpose, but that's already getting into Retro-clone and is not a straight conversion anymore. It should be right in the first tables I posted.

[J.Gellert]

Please upload it somewhere else

[Yora]

Changed the link.

[Matthew]

I think I did this. In the "second version" I did move BAB for Warriors up one row on purpose, but that's already getting into Retro-clone and is not a straight conversion anymore. It should be right in the first tables I posted.

Ah right, so you did. Have you heard of Myth & Magic, by the way? It might be what you are looking for, or it might not.

[J.Gellert]

Awesome tables, now I just want to play that one more time...

[Yora]

Ah right, so you did. Have you heard of Myth & Magic, by the way? It might be what you are looking for, or it might not.

No I havn't. But looking it up, it seems to not have been even released yet.

[J.Gellert]

No I havn't. But looking it up, it seems to not have been even released yet.

And if you just defeated their entire selling point with a few tables, then why did they raise all that money for?

Kickstarter is... interesting...

[Yora]

Wait, they did release something. They just designed the page in such a way to minimze the chance of anyone ever finding it as much as they could. It's a PHB with cleric, fighter, thief, and wizard for level 1 to 10.
(DMG)

It's more beautiful than I ever imagined.

Spoiler

Show

I would have prefered to not have feats at all, but the class talents look quite tame. For some reason they took the already quite bad 2nd Ed. initiative rules and applied all the worst optional rules to it as the only presented initiative system. I really hope they do something about this for the final release, or I imagine combat will consists to 60% of figuring out initiative for the round.

But everything else is just beautiful. I see lots of the changes that I had been pondering when going through the tables (Fort, Ref, Will saves, linear BAB, straightened out spell progressions).

[Matthew]

Jolly good. I thought it might pique your interest. There are many things about it that I just do not get the point of, but I suspect that I am outside the target demographic from my occasional interaction on the forums.

[Yora]

That forum is as bad as the website. I have no idea how you use that just to read something.

[MeeposFire]

Which 2e initiative system is it using? There is more than one...

[hamlet]

Wait, they did release something. They just designed the page in such a way to minimze the chance of anyone ever finding it as much as they could. It's a PHB with cleric, fighter, thief, and wizard for level 1 to 10.
(DMG)

It's more beautiful than I ever imagined.

Spoiler

Show

I would have prefered to not have feats at all, but the class talents look quite tame. For some reason they took the already quite bad 2nd Ed. initiative rules and applied all the worst optional rules to it as the only presented initiative system. I really hope they do something about this for the final release, or I imagine combat will consists to 60% of figuring out initiative for the round.

But everything else is just beautiful. I see lots of the changes that I had been pondering when going through the tables (Fort, Ref, Will saves, linear BAB, straightened out spell progressions).

I'm looking through those files.

It's . . . "interesting" I'll say. I can certainly see how modern gamers would look at it and say it was "cleaned up" or more "intuitive"* but, for the most part, I'm seeing a lot of fixes to things that I'm fairly certain were, in practice, not broken.

All that said, I do think it has some interesting ideas and design methodology. Makes me glad I dropped some cash on the kickstarter to get a copy of the book.


*Another word I'm beginning to absolutely despise, right along with fiat, fun/unfun, and balance.