The better man? There is no such thing [base class]

[Tesla]

I really love the idea behind this class, and am excited at the idea of playing it in an upcoming campaign. However I had a few questions if it is not too much trouble.

Class Feature Questions
1. This was essentially asked on the first page, but I do not remember seeing an answer to it. Improved Unarmed Strike says that you can treat your unarmed strikes as grouped natural weapons, but does that mean that you get bonus attacks from them that do not conflict with the Natural Weapons mutation limit? Or just that you can take Natural Weapons improving mutations and have them apply to your unarmed strikes?

2. Does Monster Sage apply to Knowledge Devotion?

3. The Mutant Ascendancy age change seems to be very vague and open ended, which does make logical sense. However would a person be able to cease aging entirely with it?

4. What is the starting age?

Further Homebrew Questions
5. What would everyone think about a template that increases the number of mutations gained at each level? Something along the lines of a creature descended from a Progenitor, and thus more accepting of change. I would think at least +1LA for +1 mutation per level, but was hoping for some other views on it.

Thank you to everyone who reads and/or responds to this.

[inuyasha]

Further Homebrew Questions
4. What would everyone think about a template that increases the number of mutations gained at each level? Something along the lines of a creature descended from a Progenitor, and thus more accepting of change. I would think at least +1LA for +1 mutation per level, but was hoping for some other views on it.

Thank you to everyone who reads and/or responds to this.

what about a mutant template? that adds a number of mutations=to HDX3?

[Draken]

I really love the idea behind this class, and am excited at the idea of playing it in an upcoming campaign. However I had a few questions if it is not too much trouble.

Class Feature Questions
1. This was essentially asked on the first page, but I do not remember seeing an answer to it. Improved Unarmed Strike says that you can treat your unarmed strikes as grouped natural weapons, but does that mean that you get bonus attacks from them that do not conflict with the Natural Weapons mutation limit? Or just that you can take Natural Weapons improving mutations and have them apply to your unarmed strikes?

They don't interfere with the natural attacks gained through the natural weapons mutation. The limit in natural weapons only applies to that specific mutation, in fact. Any other natural weapons from any other source (even if said other source is also endemical to the evolutionist) can be added to a full attack with no compunctuation.

What the reading on IUS does is allow you to use all the fists you have in a full attack without suffering two-(multi-)weapon fighting penalties.

2. Does Monster Sage apply to Knowledge Devotion?

Monster sage applies to skill checks to identify creatures. Knowledge Devotion demands a skill check to identify a creature. So yes.

3. The Mutant Ascendancy age change seems to be very vague and open ended, which does make logical sense. However would a person be able to cease aging entirely with it?

Yes. It is quite expected, really.

You can also change it so that you age until a certain point (say, until Very Old or Venerable) and then stop. Never reaching the next tier of age or a maximum age.

4. What is the starting age?

Evolutionists have the same starting age as the wizard.

Further Homebrew Questions
5. What would everyone think about a template that increases the number of mutations gained at each level? Something along the lines of a creature descended from a Progenitor, and thus more accepting of change. I would think at least +1LA for +1 mutation per level, but was hoping for some other views on it.

Thank you to everyone who reads and/or responds to this.

I wouldn't put such a template at more than 1 mutation per character level and would make it at least a +2 LA. Early on, it wouldn't be much, but this template would give a lot of stuff.

And a number of mutations equal to HDx3 is essentially what the class gives.

[inuyasha]

oh yea...true...now im feeling stupid XD

[Tesla]

Thank you for the swift reply.

1. Ah, that does indeed make sense, and allows for more natural attacking glory.

2. Just thought it worth checking since +4 is a larger bonus than I am used to seeing for Knowledge skills.

3/4.Alright then, thank you very much for the information.

5. Sounds logical to me, and still workable with what I have access to.

Inuyasha: I could still see use in such a powerful template, but not as player accessible. A BBEG with 122 mutations would be a very valid threat I would say.

[inuyasha]

would it be possible, if you pick the right mutations, to evolve into big T? and if it isnt, Mr. Draken sir could you make it possible?

[Draken]

would it be possible, if you pick the right mutations, to evolve into big T? and if it isnt, Mr. Draken sir could you make it possible?

You would be one size category short (unless you went Giant instead of Magical Beast) and wouldn't have quite the same ammount of Regeneration (nor would it be quite as impossible to beat).

But other than those details, Big T requires about 13 mutations to get the basics of his setup in (minus his immunities). Let me try a build here. 20th level, basic elite array for abilities.

Tarrasquean

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Human Evolutionist 20
Gargantuan Magical Beast
Hit Dice 20d8+120 (213 HP)
Initiative +10
Speed 40 ft
Armour Class 22 (+13 Natural, +3 Dex, -4 Size), touch 9, flat-footed 19
Base Attack Bonus/Grapple +20/+46
Attack Bite +35 (3d8+26; 18-20/x3)
Full Attack Bite +35 (3d8+19; 18-20/x3), Gore +30 (3d6+12), 2 Claws +30 (2d6+12), Tail +30 (3d6+12)
Space/Reach 20 ft/15 ft
Special Attacks: Improved Grab (Bite), Swalow Whole, Frightful Presence (DC 24), Sprint (400 feet charge once per minute).
Special Qualities: Scent, Fire Immunity, Fast Healing 9, Regeneration 10 (does not take normal damage from slashing, piercing or bludgeoning attacks), Spell Resistance 30 (any spell that fails to beat this is reversed onto the caster).
Saves Fort +20, Ref +18, Will +9
Abilities Str 38, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 12
Skills Balance +6, Climb +18, Concentration +11, Escape Artist +6, Hide-6, Jump +18, Listen +15, Move Silently +6, Search +5 (+7 if using scent), Spot +15, Survival +3 (+5 following tracks with scent), Swim +18, Tumble +6.
Feats: Great Changer x8, Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Power Attack(B), Improved Initiative (B), Combat Reflexes (B), Blind Fight (B).
Treasure: Appropriate for a 20th level character.


Monster Sage: Guess who didn't take a single knowledge skill? That is right, you!

Mutations: The Tarrasquean has 82 mutations.

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Basic:
Evolve Combat Instinct - 10
Evolve Fortitude - 3
Evolve Reflexes - 3
Evolve Resilience - 1
Evolve Talent - 1

Innate:
Extra Senses - 1
Natural Armor - 4
Natural Weapons - 4 (Bite, Gore, Claws, Tail)
Nimble Form - 3
Powerful Form - 4
Resilient Form - 6

Extraordinaire:
Augmented Critical - 3 (Bite (18-20/x3)
Damage Reduction - 5
Energy Resistance - 5 (Fire Immunity)
Fast Healing - 5
Frightful Presence - 1
Improved Grab - 1 (Bite)
Scent - 1
Spell Resistance - 5
Sprint - 6
Swalow Whole - 1


Supernatural:


Spell-like:
Spell Reversal - 9

Psi-like:

Teratomorphisms: The Tarrasquean has six teratomorphisms.

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Teratomorph I: Tauric Body - The Tarrasquean has a somewhat stooped posture, like a theropod dinosaur.

Teratomorph II: Size Increase I - The Tarrasquean is big.

Teratomorph III: Regeneration I - The Tarrasquean is hard to kill.

Teratomorph IV: Size Increase II - The Tarrasquean is really big.

Teratomorph V: Regeneration II: The Tarrasquean is really hard to kill.

Teratomorph VI: Size Increase III: The Tarrasquean is really freaking big.

Mutant Ascendancy: The Tarrasquean has ascended into a Magical Beast. All of his natural weapons have an enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls of +5.

Mutant Perfection: The Tarrasquean has achieved perfection as a Magical Beast.

Ok. Details.

The Tarrasquean is all over the place. As far as builds go, this is very unfocused and has a lot of superfluous or underutilized things, it also goes out of its way to avoid taking some useful stuff.

It moves much faster than the default tarrasque and its attacks actually deal more damage, however! Frightful Presence does not last as long and it has overall inferior stats because we are working at half the beast's HD here. A level 48 evolutionist emulating the tarrasque would run out of stuff to emulate at level 30 more or less and would probably start having to shore the build's holes out of simple lack of options.

The above character includes no benefits from magic items.

[Rizban]

The tarrasque always seemed so weak in 3.X as compared to its earlier incarnations anyway. All you have to do is cast fly, and it's basically helpless against you.

[inuyasha]

thanks :) that was totally needed

[Rizban]

Gloom [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: None.
Benefit: The evolutionist projects a radius of Darkness as the spell, with a radius of 10 feet centered on him. This ability can be suppressed or activated as a swift action.
Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken after the first, the radius of the effect increases by 10 feet.

Just to be clear, can gloom be taken once per level?
Is there maybe a way to upgrade the effective spell level of the ability to counter higher level [light] spells, such as making it equivalent to deeper darkness after taking it X times?
Maybe some way to create a blacklight (SpC p30) like effect and create actual darkness instead of just shadowy illumination?

[Draken]

Just to be clear, can gloom be taken once per level?
Is there maybe a way to upgrade the effective spell level of the ability to counter higher level [light] spells, such as making it equivalent to deeper darkness after taking it X times?
Maybe some way to create a blacklight (SpC p30) like effect and create actual darkness instead of just shadowy illumination?

As it stands yes, it can be taken once per level.

I will make some changes to it in the spirit of your questions. Gloom is kind of a one-point wonder as it stands.

[Lateral]

Hey, with the Outsider Teratomorph I Arms of the Outer Planes, are extra (paid) enchantments tracked separately for cost? That is, if I were 8th level and had that teratomorphism for a +2 greatsword, would paying to upgrade it to, say, a +2 flaming greatsword cost 2,000 gp or 10,000 gp?

[Draken]

Hey, with the Outsider Teratomorph I Arms of the Outer Planes, are extra (paid) enchantments tracked separately for cost? That is, if I were 8th level and had that teratomorphism for a +2 greatsword, would paying to upgrade it to, say, a +2 flaming greatsword cost 2,000 gp or 10,000 gp?

This has been adressed. Same for Armor of the Outer Planes.

[Tesla]

Is there any possibility of adding a feat/mutation/teratomorph that grants Evasion or Mettle? Are there thoughts against such an idea?

[Draken]

Is there any possibility of adding a feat/mutation/teratomorph that grants Evasion or Mettle? Are there thoughts against such an idea?

The evolutionist has multiple ways of not caring about the stuff that is usually denied by Evasion and Mettle.

That is the proper answer, I suppose. Truth be said I never felt like those abilities... Fit into the framework of the class. Even the Uncanny Dodge given by Extra Senses is actually an artificial means of providing All-around Vision without locking characters into (necessarily) a bunch of eyes. It can also be a bunch of ears or a bunch of noses.

Anyway. New stuff and changed old stuff.

Base Class:
Class Skills: Changed. The evolutionist can now chose any ten skills to be his class skills (a moderate downgrade from the old sixteen class skills).
Mutations: Mutations per level changed from five at level one plus three each level afterwards to six at level one and four each level afterwards.

Basic List:
Changed:
Evolve Aptitude - now gives three class skills. No longer gives skill points, but provides a bonus to all skill checks. Can be taken up to 5 times.
Evolve Skills - Now gives 6 + 2*mutator level skill points per mutation. Can be taken once per mutator leve, up to three times.


Extraordinaire List:
New Mutation - Trail. An upgrade for slime.

Supernatural List:
New Mutation: Glare - An altered version of the old Gaze mutation, avaiable earlier.
Changed:
Gaze - Now an expansion effect for Glare.

Feats:
New feats:
Expanded Creation - A treat for anyone who likes Budding Creation. It has another expansion coming soon, in fact.
Force and Verve - A general feat for anyone who has sonic effects. Like bards.
Great Changer - Removed. Enjoy your newfound feat slots that are not taken by an all-but-mandatory feat.

Plant List:
New Mutation - Bounty. An upgrade for nourishment.
Changed:
Grove - Bounty upgrade renamed to Garden.
Nourishment - health given increased to two times mutator level plus constitution modifier.

Undead List:
Changed:
Gloom - Plenty of new effects on it.

Due to wordcount limits, the Undead list has been moved to another post. As of this writing, said post is after three sequential posts by bobthe6th that used to be a small exchange between him and Selinia.

[DiGiacomon]

This is a wondrous edition of this extraordinaire class, The new editions make my plant dude oh so more fun.

Would it be safe to assume that all prestige classes also gain 4 mutations instead of 3 per level, and the skill list changes to the new?

[Draken]

This is a wondrous edition of this extraordinaire class, The new editions make my plant dude oh so more fun.

Would it be safe to assume that all prestige classes also gain 4 mutations instead of 3 per level, and the skill list changes to the new?

Oh. I forgot the skill changes, but I did make a change to the mutations gained by the prestige classes.

[Tesla]

First off, thank you for answering my question. It is appreciated.

Now this may actually be a stupid question, but does Elemental Infusion work with ranged weapons? I ask because my current build idea is very fragile at early levels, and adding to my full attack list would be nice.

Also I like quite a few of the new changes to be honest, and I admit that I am really fond of the Glare mutation despite its static effect duration. Thank you very much for the new developments.

[Draken]

First off, thank you for answering my question. It is appreciated.

Now this may actually be a stupid question, but does Elemental Infusion work with ranged weapons? I ask because my current build idea is very fragile at early levels, and adding to my full attack list would be nice.

Also I like quite a few of the new changes to be honest, and I admit that I am really fond of the Glare mutation despite its static effect duration. Thank you very much for the new developments.

Elemental Infusion is supposed to work with ranged weapons, indeed.

And glad you like glare. It was a change mainly to add more interesting options before level 5. Those were kind of lacking.

[inuyasha]

why did you upgrade mutations per level? I thought they were fine actually

[Draken]

why did you upgrade mutations per level? I thought they were fine actually

I noticed that pretty much every evolutionist build I could think of (and most that I saw otherwise) piled up on Great Changer as many times as possible and felt starved for mutations otherwise.

In light of that I decided to just remove great changer and make the mutations it gave baseline (with a small bonus, granted).

More changes!

With some luck, this adresses one of the last truly broken things in the evolutionist's load-out. Namely, tons of ability damage.

Extraordinaire list:
Changed:
Poison - now has a set limit of daily uses.

Undead Teratomorphisms
Consume Life I and II - Colapsed into a single teratomorphism, set to rank III with the effects of Consume Life II. Now also includes ability penalties you inflict.

New Teratomorphism:
Rejuvenation - Rank V: Revive somewhere like a Lich, ghost or vampire.

Undead List:
Ability Damage - Gone.
Ability Drain - Gone.

Energy Drain - Modified. No longer applies on any negaton touch (but can apply negaton touch instead).

Create Spawn - Modified to better comply with changes to Energy Drain and disappearance of Ability damage/drain.

New mutation: Debilitate - Debilitate takes the place of Ability Damage. It inflicts a penalty instead (which does not stack with itself, but starts off bigger than damage used to).

[DiGiacomon]

I like the additional changes, new teratamorphism or however one spells this. However, looking over the plant mutant ascendancy; I saw immunity to critical hits but not sneak attack.
I thought these were the same kind of damage, Wouldn't surprise me if I am confused but none the less curious.

[inuyasha]

I noticed that pretty much every evolutionist build I could think of (and most that I saw otherwise) piled up on Great Changer as many times as possible and felt starved for mutations otherwise.

In light of that I decided to just remove great changer and make the mutations it gave baseline (with a small bonus, granted).

More changes!

With some luck, this adresses one of the last truly broken things in the evolutionist's load-out. Namely, tons of ability damage.

Extraordinaire list:
Changed:
Poison - now has a set limit of daily uses.

Undead Teratomorphisms
Consume Life I and II - Colapsed into a single teratomorphism, set to rank III with the effects of Consume Life II. Now also includes ability penalties you inflict.

New Teratomorphism:
Rejuvenation - Rank V: Revive somewhere like a Lich, ghost or vampire.

Undead List:
Ability Damage - Gone.
Ability Drain - Gone.

Energy Drain - Modified. No longer applies on any negaton touch (but can apply negaton touch instead).

Create Spawn - Modified to better comply with changes to Energy Drain and disappearance of Ability damage/drain.

New mutation: Debilitate - Debilitate takes the place of Ability Damage. It inflicts a penalty instead (which does not stack with itself, but starts off bigger than damage used to).

why are you removing and weakening things silly

and also could you consider upgrading create spawn to possibly ghouls/ghasts and maybe even wights?

[Draken]

I like the additional changes, new teratamorphism or however one spells this. However, looking over the plant mutant ascendancy; I saw immunity to critical hits but not sneak attack.
I thought these were the same kind of damage, Wouldn't surprise me if I am confused but none the less curious.

If I recall correctly, I literally copied that from the plant entry in the srd/MM. As far as I recall, critical hit immunity also means sneak attack immunity unless stated otherwise.

why are you removing and weakening things silly

and also could you consider upgrading create spawn to possibly ghouls/ghasts and maybe even wights?

Because it is overpowered!

That is the answer to both questions, in fact. Wights are not happening. neither are ghouls.

Also another change:

Basic List:
Evolve Resilience - Changed to 2 HP/HD and 1/4 ML.

Construct List:
Hardened Body - Removed due to redundancy.

[Omnicrat]

With regard to harden body, even if the same mutation pretty much exists on another special list its just that: on another special list. Personally, I think it fits better with the constructs than with the elemental, but that's just me. Either way, there is no reason they can't both have a mutation that does that. Maybe just put the same mutation on both lists?

[Draken]

With regard to harden body, even if the same mutation pretty much exists on another special list its just that: on another special list. Personally, I think it fits better with the constructs than with the elemental, but that's just me. Either way, there is no reason they can't both have a mutation that does that. Maybe just put the same mutation on both lists?

Hardened Body was just another mutation that gave 1 hit point per hit dice.

[EdroGrimshell]

Hardened Body was just another mutation that gave 1 hit point per hit dice.

Yes but it allowed you to go past the normal limit of Evolve Resilience since you can take it separately. And it makes sense for constructs, they're highly resilient creatures, so having the ability to double up and get Uber HP is actually not a bad option.

[Omnicrat]

Hardened Body was just another mutation that gave 1 hit point per hit dice.

Oh. You know what I thought you did.

Also, EdroGrimshell makes a good point.

[Draken]

Yes, but it became superfluous when I changed Evolve Resilience to basically pull double time.

And technically, uber construct beefiness is the Living Fortress T-morph.

[inuyasha]

im sad about the missing ability drain :(