The better man? There is no such thing [base class]

[Draken]

Um, just to point out, to both the the dude above me and the original post containing the regeneration mutation: Fast healing doesn't "stack", because it's an ability, not a boost. It's like having DR of two different types. If you have dr5/silver and dr3/silver or good, they don't combine to make dr8/silver or good. Similarly, if you have fast healing 1 and fast healing 2, they don't cmmbine to make fast healing 3, you just have two different instances of fast healing. They both do activate at the same time, so the effect is similar, but fast healing is not stacking with anything, so stating whether is does or doesn't stack is pointless.

Just to make sure this is clear, the various forms of fast healing granted by the evolutionist are all called out as stacking.

Now, by parts.

I haven't looked the entire class over me, but one thing is really buggering me: The Regeneration I tetramorph. It is severely overpowered in my own opinion. The time required to regenerate body parts is much too fast: Trolls, who are basically 'the' regenerating monsters, need 3d6 minutes to recover their lost limbs, which, on average, makes about 10 or 11 minutes, which is much more than what the Evolutionist would get.

The time it takes isn't much of a balance issue, really. One, five or ten minutes invariably means that the regeneration will happen out of combat time.

Also, the amount: You get fast healing 4, stacking with every other type (which most of this type do not), which turns into a whopping 14 if it's about non-lethal damage, which, after you take the second tetramorphism basically makes you capable of standing in the middle of a crowd who are trying to cut you up, and healing every single point of damage they do. And even at level 8, when they get the first, especially if they manage to find some other way to convert damage to nonlethal, it already makes them very hard to kill.

This is a detail that begs consideration. The evolutionist has a somewhat high optimization floor. Most of his defensive abilities were made with the intent of being viable choices in an environment where damage is being dished out in relatively high amounts, such as two-handed power attacking (but not necessarily ubercharging, mind you). Fast Healing and damage reduction in 3.5 are almost never relevant to challenging combat due to low values.

This is honestly one thing that doesn't happen anywhere else in D&D 3.5. You can pick any class and build it for massive damage, but respectable defensive options for soaking damage don't exist. You are either invulnerable or able to take 1-4 attacks before going down.

Also a crowd (either a mob as per cityscape or eight or more npcs surrounding you and attacking) that is dealing 14 damage per round to a 14th level character isn't a threat to begin with and should never be regarded as such.

Also, you almost completely stopped the weakness that regeneration has: They can heal nonlethal damage, but not if it's turned into lethal damage because they were hit by something that bypasses it. Now something bypassing it is just a minor nuisance, since they can heal it slightly less fast.

The fast healing 2/regeneration 5 of the first teratomorphism is pretty much the only worthwhile part of it because limbs loss isn't actually a thing that happens with any sort of frequency (the only non-homebrew mechanic for limb loss in 3.5 D&D is vorpal and it only applies to heads).

I am not a class-maker, of course, but this seems very, very powerful, especially in the hands of a PC.

Less than it might seen! It is no more powerful than any form of reliable healing really. Just less expensive than, say, packing up the wands of lesser vigor.

If you are referring to the ability to not die due to physical damage, it is useful, but not specially powerful. A TPK where everyone gets knocked out cold and then coup de graced is still a TPK.

If I might make a suggestion: Make it a bit more segmented. Have it, for instance, be at II, IV, and VI: Regeneration 1, at II, gives fast healing 2, which doesn't stack unless the other ability says it does (Like the mutation), 2, at IV, you can improve it to fast healing 4, or only take it then, and get fast healing 2, combined with the ability to reattach lost limbs at most (con modifier) rounds after you lost them. 3, at VI, gives you regeneration 1, or increases your fast healing by 1, and turns it into regeneration.

... Serious question.

Would you consider taking any of these suggested teratomorphisms in a build? Because I wouldn't (also worth noting that other than the "you won't die except this way" aspect, regeneration is inferior to fast healing).

And another relevant question. Would you always consider Regeneration I and II as your first choices of teratomorphisms on any given build, to the exclusion of the options available?

[Mithril Leaf]

I've made probably 5 or 6 theoretical evolutionist builds and have yet to find regeneration worth taking. It's an ability totally replicated by a weak 7th level spell. Buy a scroll and the one time it comes up, you're set.

[inuyasha]

Hey Draken, whats the starting age for the evolutionist? Im building a party of evolutionists right now and I want to know :)

[Draken]

Hey Draken, whats the starting age for the evolutionist? Im building a party of evolutionists right now and I want to know :)

Use the table for complex classes, cleric/druid/monk/wizard.

[Omnicrat]

Use the table for complex classes, cleric/druid/monk/wizard.

Complex? Really? I always assumed simple. I mean, it can just be mutation, not necessarily studied and controlled evolution, can it not?

[Draken]

Complex? Really? I always assumed simple. I mean, it can just be mutation, not necessarily studied and controlled evolution, can it not?

I tend to make a comparison between the Evolutionist, Ozodrin and Harrowed when explaining my decision in this regard.

The Harrowed doesn't need to learn its powers, he is stuck with them from birth and there is a thing inside his soul that gives him instinctive control of his powers, strictly speaking, the class' chief features, the harrowings, aren't under the character's control*, they are done by the Beast. He is the Sorcerer, the power is in his blood, he didn't grasp his power from nothingness, he did not earn it, he was given it.

It is a simple class for a character to take.

* character =/= player.

The Ozodrin is either born into what he is or changed into what he is by a force outside of his control, and then he must grow into his power. He is the Bard, the Fighter, the power was there for the taking, it was not vast, but it seemed worth sinking the effort into claiming it.

The Ozodrin is a an average complexity class for a character to take**.

** harsh on a player, however.

The evolutionist starts out a muggle. He does not necessarily have any particular talent or knack for what he is getting into. Nothing external grants him power. He studies the creatures of the world in all of their insanely, variedly, divinely (or otherwise) designed shapes and finds a way to induce the changes on himself. He is the Wizard, nothing was given to him, he earned it through pain and sweat, he learned his craft from a starting point of zero, whereas others had born talent, gifts or crutches.

It is a complex class.

----

I wanted to use Warlock/Sorcerer/Wizard for this little blurb but the sorcerer is a simple class, not an average one, so that kind of breaks down. The difference would still be kind of: "Granted power vs Born power vs Learned power".

----

But all that refers to the default assumption for the class. Starting age is more important for an individual character than for a class as a whole, so I see no point to it beyond giving an age at which members of a given race tend to start adventuring.

[Sherishade]

Hello I've got another question as I'm building one of many mock builds. Do I have to use all mutation points at any given level, can I save any number for later levels? Also on that same line of reasoning do I have to take a low level tertomorphism; excluding prereqs which you obviously need to take.

Also this is probably a "any given moment DM" question, but would you allow a temporary stat boost from eagles splendor to raise the bonus spell amount to at-will.
Example I'm at 35 charisma and don't have the required 7 uses for a 6th level spell like ability to be at-will; I use my wand/scroll/spell-like to give my self eagles splendor giving me 39 charisma. I'm now technically getting 7 uses for 6th level spell-likes, so does it become at-will until the spell wears off?

[Necroticplague]

Just to make sure this is clear, the various forms of fast healing granted by the evolutionist are all called out as stacking.

I'm aware of that. My main point of that whole paragraph is that it doesn't matter either way whether you say it stacks or not, because it will effectively act like it does.

[Moonwolf727]

I'm aware of that. My main point of that whole paragraph is that it doesn't matter either way whether you say it stacks or not, because it will effectively act like it does.

If in either case it would work then there is no point complaining, now is there? We can all be content that it runs smoothly enough and exactly as intended rather than raising hell over one little repitition of the same detail. Let's all be nice about this now.

[Draken]

Hello I've got another question as I'm building one of many mock builds. Do I have to use all mutation points at any given level, can I save any number for later levels? Also on that same line of reasoning do I have to take a low level tertomorphism; excluding prereqs which you obviously need to take.

Strictly speaking, you have to use them all at the level gained. However, when building a high level character, you can just cherry pick through the mass of mutations because I doubt it is possible to end up with an illegal build due to lack of level appropriate qualifications.

As for teratomorphisms, you have to take ones appropriate to the levels earned. So by default you will have:

One rank I teratomorphism.
One rank II teratomorphism.
One rank III teratomorphism.
One rank IV teratomorphism.
One rank V teratomorphism.
And one rank VI teratomorphism.

With the possibility to exchange one of the higher ranked teratomorphisms for one of any rank lower than that specific teratomorphism.

Also this is probably a "any given moment DM" question, but would you allow a temporary stat boost from eagles splendor to raise the bonus spell amount to at-will.
Example I'm at 35 charisma and don't have the required 7 uses for a 6th level spell like ability to be at-will; I use my wand/scroll/spell-like to give my self eagles splendor giving me 39 charisma. I'm now technically getting 7 uses for 6th level spell-likes, so does it become at-will until the spell wears off?

Temporary boosts like that are called out as not giving bonus spells, if I recall correctly. An item giving the enhancement bonus would do it, however.

[Sherishade]

Thanks, ya there are so many rules I keep over looking or forgetting them lol.

[inuyasha]

Btw, draken, Im going to playtest this this weekend with some family, i am making 4 level 1 evolutionists, one is a plant oriented elf, one is an orc blessed by gruumsh, another is a gnome tinkering with himself and adding mechanical parts, and the last one is a shadowy outsider halfling

[Moonwolf727]

I have a question actually. Does the Heart of the Elements [Earth] tetramorph grant you a burrowing speed at all? I don't see any other way to obtain one and one of the elemental mutations makes mention of it as a prerequisite.

Sorry if this has been asked before

[Draken]

I have a question actually. Does the Heart of the Elements [Earth] tetramorph grant you a burrowing speed at all? I don't see any other way to obtain one and one of the elemental mutations makes mention of it as a prerequisite.

Sorry if this has been asked before

Core Teratomorphs, rank III.

[Moonwolf727]

Core Teratomorphs, rank III.

Oh. I was expecting it to just be a mutation
Fair enough, weird that it'd require me to miss out on one of the elemental tetramorphs considering they chain together so well but there's no use complaining, thanks for the info.

[Draken]

Oh. I was expecting it to just be a mutation
Fair enough, weird that it'd require me to miss out on one of the elemental tetramorphs considering they chain together so well but there's no use complaining, thanks for the info.

Burrow is a teratomorph for the same reason that Flight is a teratomorph, it is a very powerful method of locomotion. Arguably, burrow is the most powerful method of locomotion since while burrowing you are effectively invulnerable due to lack of Line of Effect (unless your opponent crawls into any tunnels you happen to leave).

Climb and Swim are less powerful due to actually being doable without special abilities (even if not in a very combat-worthy manner) and being situationally useful, thus they get to be available through mutations.

[Omnicrat]

Burrow is a teratomorph for the same reason that Flight is a teratomorph, it is a very powerful method of locomotion. Arguably, burrow is the most powerful method of locomotion since while burrowing you are effectively invulnerable due to lack of Line of Effect (unless your opponent crawls into any tunnels you happen to leave).

Climb and Swim are less powerful due to actually being doable without special abilities (even if not in a very combat-worthy manner) and being situationally useful, thus they get to be available through mutations.

He does have a point about needing to skip an earth teratormorph to get it, though. Maybe include a small burrow speed in the earth teratomorph?

[Draken]

He does have a point about needing to skip an earth teratormorph to get it, though. Maybe include a small burrow speed in the earth teratomorph?

Hmm... Any reason for the fixation on the 'earth' teratomorph? I am getting the impression that this is based on a mistake of understanding regarding the scaling Heart of [Element] teratomorphisms. They scale with any teratomorphism, not only the ones in the elemental list.

[Milo v3]

Hmm... Any reason for the fixation on the 'earth' teratomorph? I am getting the impression that this is based on a mistake of understanding regarding the scaling Heart of [Element] teratomorphisms. They scale with any teratomorphism, not only the ones in the elemental list.

I think the issue is more, he can't get all the Earth Elemental Teratomorphisms if he spends one on burrowing.

[Draken]

I think the issue is more, he can't get all the Earth Elemental Teratomorphisms if he spends one on burrowing.

Control Elements can be imitated with mere mutations, or he could take the aberration perfection.

Alternatively, there is probably a spell in the druid and wizard lists that is under level 6 and grants a burrow speed.

[Mithril Leaf]

Control Elements can be imitated with mere mutations, or he could take the aberration perfection.

Alternatively, there is probably a spell in the druid and wizard lists that is under level 6 and grants a burrow speed.

Xorn movement lasts Rounds/level and gives you the ability to move through earth as it's namesake. It's a 5th level wizard spell.

[Hanuman]

I tend to make a comparison between the Evolutionist, Ozodrin and Harrowed when explaining my decision in this regard.

The Harrowed doesn't need to learn its powers, he is stuck with them from birth and there is a thing inside his soul that gives him instinctive control of his powers, strictly speaking, the class' chief features, the harrowings, aren't under the character's control*, they are done by the Beast. He is the Sorcerer, the power is in his blood, he didn't grasp his power from nothingness, he did not earn it, he was given it.

It is a simple class for a character to take.

I hadn't seen Harrowed, thanks a bunch.

Really good flavor in there!

[DiGiacomon]

Been playing a Mage type evolutionist, something came up in our latest game that I'm not sure about.

The Disrupt Magic mutation I am curious about the original intent on it b/c we discovered spell like abilities could not be used in counter spelling which was my intent on this mutation.

Curious and wanted to make sure it works how you want it to.

[Draken]

Been playing a Mage type evolutionist, something came up in our latest game that I'm not sure about.

The Disrupt Magic mutation I am curious about the original intent on it b/c we discovered spell like abilities could not be used in counter spelling which was my intent on this mutation.

Curious and wanted to make sure it works how you want it to.

Disrupt Magic was meant to work simply as an at-will dispel magic, I am afraid. The fact that spell-like abilities can't be used to counterspell is an unfortunate limitation of the baseline rules for spell-like abilities that reduces somewhat the utility of the mutation*.

*Then again, at-will "neerneer, no magic for you" is stupid.

[Necroticplague]

Disrupt Magic was meant to work simply as an at-will dispel magic, I am afraid. The fact that spell-like abilities can't be used to counterspell is an unfortunate limitation of the baseline rules for spell-like abilities that reduces somewhat the utility of the mutation*.

*Then again, at-will "neerneer, no magic for you" is stupid.

Actually, since the part about not countering with SLAs is a general rule, it's arguably overridden by the fact dispel magic is specifically called out as being able to be used to counter any spell, since specific beats general.Plus, considering it's usually a better use of actions grappling or killing the caster in question, and it does diddly against non-casters, it's not really that strong.

[Draken]

Hahaha... Oh lord. I just might need to make a new thread. I keep hitting GitP's character cap.

New mutation list is up. Unfortunately, to get it in, I had to get rid of a few funny sidebars, including one about sign and the Positive Side of the Force one.

Oh well, here are they both, for reference.

Sidebar: The Positive Side of the Force

Spoiler

Show

Deathless. They are identical to undead in every way except for being positive energy based instead of negative energy based.

This means that the undead mutations can pretty easily be adapted into Deathless mutations!

First of all, the Deathless list must be unlocked with its own feat Deathless Mutator, which is identical to Undead Mutator in all other ways because the unlocking feats are all copies of one another anyway.

Other than that, just flip the switch on the mutations, teratomorphisms and ascendancy/perfection where needed. Ability Damage/Drain stay as they are. Spawn created Deathless zombies instead of undead zombies. Desecrate becomes Consecrate. Gloom becomes Light. Energy Drain becomes...

Uh...

Well. It either stays as negative levels or you do something about Positive levels not being stupid.

The Negaton Touch line, with all its negative energy damage goodies turns into positive energy. At first glance, this could very well look like infinite healing ad it may very well be if you are willing to run with it. But as the ravid and Xag-Ya kindly show us, positive energy does not necessarily heal. It would invariably heal the deathless, however.

As a final note, Deathless Perfection gives Major/Minor positive dominance, of course.

Sidebar: Signs of the Apocalypse

Spoiler

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Heroes don’t take Sign.
There are scant few arguments to make against this assertive. A lot of stuff in the Ancient Mutator list is highly questionable as a choice that good or neutral characters would make. Even the most pragmatic protagonists should wonder if Defile is worth it, and if the Ancient Ascendancy below isn’t going too far. Both of these pale before Sign. Nothing good ever comes out of Sign. Sign is Pestilence. Sign is Infestation. Sign is war, woe, hatred, destruction. The bearer of a sign announces his arrival miles in advance through discord, disease and twisted miracles, his wake can be nothing but misery.
The world is a worse place because someone carrying a Sign is on it. Heroes don’t take Sign.

As an optional rule for sandbox campaigns, a character bearing a sign risks attracting the attention of the being that is normally associated with it. At the end of every year in which at least one being in the world is bearing a Sign there is a stacking 1% chance that the Elder Evil associated with the sign will become active, initiating that creature’s plotline.

Changelog:

Mutant Ascendancy:
Dragon: Bonus to breath weapon DC increased to +3.
Fey: Bonuses to DCs increased to +3.
Monstrous Humanoid: Now grants two bonus mutations and one bonus mutator feat.

Extraordinaire List:
- Trample: Now uses your unarmed strike damage if you lack a slam attack.

Feats:
New Feat: Ancient Mutator - Allows access to the Ancient Mutations list.
New Feat: Empowered Sign - Epic feat, increases the power of the Sign teratomorphism.
New Feat: Resin Artisan - Improves ability to craft using resin.

New mutation list added: Ancient Mutations

[AmberVael]

Hm. I feel like the mutation ascendency and perfection of the Ancient Mutator really outclasses a lot of the others, but even if I give it benefit of the doubt, I see this one other issue.

The Ascendancy gives you Vile Feats. This is cool.
Perfection gives you immunity to a lot of things, including ability damage. This is also cool.

What isn't cool is the interaction between these two things, because at least four of the Vile feats in the Elder Evils book say you can't have them from them if you're immune to ability damage. It's a bit awkward to determine what happens if you have one of those feats and then get your perfection.

[Omnicrat]

So what was changed? You normally have a change log post with new stuff.

[Draken]

Hm. I feel like the mutation ascendency and perfection of the Ancient Mutator really outclasses a lot of the others, but even if I give it benefit of the doubt, I see this one other issue.

The Ascendancy gives you Vile Feats. This is cool.
Perfection gives you immunity to a lot of things, including ability damage. This is also cool.

What isn't cool is the interaction between these two things, because at least four of the Vile feats in the Elder Evils book say you can't have them from them if you're immune to ability damage. It's a bit awkward to determine what happens if you have one of those feats and then get your perfection.

I overlooked that. I have included a point that you can ignore your immunity (granted by the perfection) in order to use your vile feats.

As for the perfection, I lowered the energy resistances granted to 5 each instead of 10. The overall bonuses of the perfection are on par with the list of immunities granted by a few of the other type changes, making the Malefic property (which can be a big shot in the foot, no matter what you pick) the real selling point.

So what was changed? You normally have a change log post with new stuff.

I added the changelog. It is just kind of small.

[Milo v3]

I am very interested in creating a Dvati evolutionist with the addition of Symbiosis

Wonder if they have to take the same mutations....