The better man? There is no such thing [base class]

[thethird]

Ok, nice seeing the design difference

Would it be possible to apply the Karish template to living spells? They are after all oozes.

[Draken]

Ok, nice seeing the design difference

Would it be possible to apply the Karish template to living spells? They are after all oozes.

Strictly speaking, it would be. Like all other forms of template stacking on animal companion-alikes, it is not intended.

[Necroticplague]

Strictly speaking, it would be. Like all other forms of template stacking on animal companion-alikes, it is not intended Awesome.

Fixed the minor spelling error.

[Mithril Leaf]

I'm gonna say no to increased mutator level.

Sigh, always saying no to increased mutator level. How are you going to find out the worst that can happen if you never give it a shot?

[Necroticplague]

Sigh, always saying no to increased mutator level. How are you going to find out the worst that can happen if you never give it a shot?

Because ML is the main limit on the system, controlling both what your options are and how powerful they are. It would be like having a class that instead of having spell limit based on level in the class, having it based on CL. And then taking practiced spellcaster, ignoring the part about "not above your HD".

[Mithril Leaf]

Because ML is the main limit on the system, controlling both what your options are and how powerful they are. It would be like having a class that instead of having spell limit based on level in the class, having it based on CL. And then taking practiced spellcaster, ignoring the part about "not above your HD".

Once again I must point to Ardent.

But anyway, since we're so intense about not being able to increase ML, might as well use ML for granting the bonus mutations, that way you get them racial hit dice and monster class levels which would also grant you WBL. A rough draft could be something like:

I'm Bad At Names [Mutator]
By sacrificing sources of wealth and power, you gain some of the innate energy it holds.
Benefit: You gain an additional two mutations per mutator level as well as gaining an additional teratomorphism every five mutator levels. The maximum level of teratormorphism you can take starts at I and increases by one every time you gain another teratomorphism through this feat. E.G. A mutator taking his tenth level would gain a second level II teratomorphism from this feat, while having already gained one of level I. He would also have gained a total of twenty bonus mutations.
Special: You must take and sacrifice a full share of the party's loot in order to benefit from this feat. The specifics are up to you, but some examples would be eating it, burning it, or tithing it to charities. If you do not sacrifice wealth that you acquire at the first opportunity, you lose the benefit of this feat, including all bonuses you have already acquired. You may regain them when you sacrifice all wealth you had acquired that you did not sacrifice. You may keep an allotment of mundane items that total under 100 GP for personal use, and may still benefit from buffs cast on them (such as a cleric casting magic weapon on a sword you have, or an artificer casting bull's strength on a small wooden ring you wear).

That'd be my take on it, Draken can do what he wants with it. The main points I tried to cover were scaling, not WBL campaigns, and varied sources of ML. You could take a monster with racial hit dice, who grabs several different prestige classes, and ends up going epic, with it still working out fine, which was my intention for basing it on ML.

[thethird]

One question, what does the plant mutant ascendancy do:

"The evolutionist’s natural armor increases by +2 and two additional hit points per mutator level."

I can read it as:

"The evolutionist’s natural armor increases by +2 and two additional hit points per mutator level."

or

"The evolutionist’s natural armor increases by +2 and gains two additional hit points per mutator level."

[Draken]

One question, what does the plant mutant ascendancy do:

"The evolutionist’s natural armor increases by +2 and two additional hit points per mutator level."

I can read it as:

"The evolutionist’s natural armor increases by +2 and two additional hit points per mutator level."

or

"The evolutionist’s natural armor increases by +2 and gains two additional hit points per mutator level."

Changed, it is the second reading.

[Mithril Leaf]

Hey Draken, can the Extra Teratomorphism feat be taken more than once? It seems like the kinda thing an Epic Evolutionist would sink feats into once they've got all the important stuff, kinda like Improved Initiative.

EDIT: Also are granted mutations non-magical after the fact? As far as mutations you get from the High Evolutionary that are naturally not magical I mean.

[Milo v3]

Oh, nearly forgot again I sorta... remade the physician as it was a crappy quick cut and paste job.... A better thought out Grafting class for Mutations can be found here. Though it isn't entirely complete.

Also, like the Spell Weaver. Good thing it's Spell-Like Abilities only.

[Gazzien]

Is there a rule that just says you can't take [Epic] feats before you have 21 HD? Or could you take Extra Teratomorphism at level 18?

[Grimsage Matt]

There is the DWK cheese method, but that only works due to dragons epic feats are unlocked by age progression. It might be possible to take them early, but it might be subject to "Rocks coated in oblivion fall. Cheese dies".

[Draken]

There is the DWK cheese method, but that only works due to dragons epic feats are unlocked by age progression. It might be possible to take them early, but it might be subject to "Rocks coated in oblivion fall. Cheese dies".

Is there a rule that just says you can't take [Epic] feats before you have 21 HD? Or could you take Extra Teratomorphism at level 18?

Acquiring Epic Feats

Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:

At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.

Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class.

The bit about mature adult true dragons being able to take epic feats is an ill-written clarification. All published true dragons of at least mature adult age have 21+ HD.

[Gazzien]

The bit about mature adult true dragons being able to take epic feats is an ill-written clarification. All published true dragons of at least mature adult age have 21+ HD.

Ah, okay. Thank you.

[Mithril Leaf]

The bit about mature adult true dragons being able to take epic feats is an ill-written clarification. All published true dragons of at least mature adult age have 21+ HD.

This would be important if it specified true dragons, the book itself says any old or older dragon, such as an old human who took the dragon ascendancy. Might want to change that here. And also answer my earlier questions

[Hanuman]

I recommend replacing the Integrated Arsenal Construct Mutation effect with a nonpsionic Graft Weapon effect.

[Quester]

I recommend replacing the Integrated Arsenal Construct Mutation effect with a nonpsionic Graft Weapon effect.

I have to disagree, I think that a Graft weapon effect would be needlessly complex for the evolutionist. Integrated arsenal is already very similar, and I don't think differences are worth either editing what is already there or adding another page to reference. I also don't think integrated arsenal is overpowered, and graft weapon is, arguably, a downgrade, giving the evolutionist a vulnerability to sundering in exchange for a +1 bonus. Plus if you want a graft weapon effect, you can still get the psi-like ability, albeit a later level.

However, on the subject of changes...

Both the Spines and Proboscis mutation tables need to be fixed, and also what type of damage do they do, I assume piercing for both but don't think it is directly stated.

Scent was left out of the last skill revision, and as written allows for a bonus to search and survival equal to twice his mutator level, if he takes it every level.

It would be cool if the Mimicry ability was available through a mutation, just a request.

[Draken]

I have to disagree, I think that a Graft weapon effect would be needlessly complex for the evolutionist. Integrated arsenal is already very similar, and I don't think differences are worth either editing what is already there or adding another page to reference. I also don't think integrated arsenal is overpowered, and graft weapon is, arguably, a downgrade, giving the evolutionist a vulnerability to sundering in exchange for a +1 bonus. Plus if you want a graft weapon effect, you can still get the psi-like ability, albeit a later level.

However, on the subject of changes...

Both the Spines and Proboscis mutation tables need to be fixed, and also what type of damage do they do, I assume piercing for both but don't think it is directly stated.

Scent was left out of the last skill revision, and as written allows for a bonus to search and survival equal to twice his mutator level, if he takes it every level.

It would be cool if the Mimicry ability was available through a mutation, just a request.

These have all been fixed, thanks for the warning.

Mimicry is... An odd thing. Strictly speaking, it can be done mundanely (as a non-perfect effect) with a Disguise check, resisted either by Listen or perhaps by a Knowledge (Nature) check, in the case of animals. Other than that it is an exceptionally niche ability that is hardly worth a whole mutation.

I suppose I could put it in as a function of the Change Shape mutation?

[Yasahiro]

I have a few questions.

One, in description of Solar Blast it says that each further mutation increases damage by 2 dice. So if I had 4 mutator levels and it would deal 4d4 damage, if I take it again it would deal 6d4 damage?

How does proboscis mutation increase damage if you are not medium.

Does Symbiosis Mutation, if the other person is not evolutionist, work like... Mental bio-link of sorts? Like MegaMan. EXE Full Synchro?

So The Thorns not only enhance natural attacks but also give you another that can be made with them, as if they were armor spikes of appropriate size? Nice.

How do unarmed attacks as natural attacks work? I mean, are they as if you had two claws, but deal different damage? If you add Elemental Attack for them, does it work only for fists or also on claws? Can you attack with 1 fist and 1 claw?

Can you still attack with fists the regular way to get Iterative attacks, while still gaining Elemental Attack damage if you got that mutation?

EDIT:

Also, does Elemental Attack and the like make natural weapons of the Evolutionist count as Magic for purposes of attacking incorporeal creatures?

EDIT AGAIN:

Also, the amount of damage healed by Nourishment, is it 2 x (Mutator level + Con mod) or is it 2 x Mutator level + Con mod?

And if a person has Elemental Renewal for fire, can you heal from Overdrive Damage since it is fire damage?

[Draken]

By parts. A lot of this is basic rules.

I have a few questions.

One, in description of Solar Blast it says that each further mutation increases damage by 2 dice. So if I had 4 mutator levels and it would deal 4d4 damage, if I take it again it would deal 6d4 damage?

Precisely.

How does proboscis mutation increase damage if you are not medium.

Same way damage dice go up for any other weapon/natural weapon.

Does Symbiosis Mutation, if the other person is not evolutionist, work like... Mental bio-link of sorts? Like MegaMan. EXE Full Synchro?

Neither of these examples means anything to me. Symbiosis has a list of its effects for both types of connection.

So The Thorns not only enhance natural attacks but also give you another that can be made with them, as if they were armor spikes of appropriate size? Nice.

Yep.

How do unarmed attacks as natural attacks work? I mean, are they as if you had two claws, but deal different damage? If you add Elemental Attack for them, does it work only for fists or also on claws? Can you attack with 1 fist and 1 claw?

Again. Basic rules.

Spoiler: Natural Weapons - SRD

Show

Natural Weapons

Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below.

Bite

The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage.

Claw or Talon

The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage.

Gore

The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage.

Slap or Slam

The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.

Sting

The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage.

Tentacle

The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage.

Can you still attack with fists the regular way to get Iterative attacks, while still gaining Elemental Attack damage if you got that mutation?

Elemental Attack only applies to unarmed strikes if you applied it to that one. If you have Elemental Attack on Slams, Claws or any other natural weapon it does not apply to unarmed strikes.

EDIT:

Also, does Elemental Attack and the like make natural weapons of the Evolutionist count as Magic for purposes of attacking incorporeal creatures?

No. For that purpose you need a necklace of natural weapons, amulet of mighty fists or the Force Sheath mutation in the construct list.

EDIT AGAIN:

Also, the amount of damage healed by Nourishment, is it 2 x (Mutator level + Con mod) or is it 2 x Mutator level + Con mod?

2x (Mutator level + Con mod).

And if a person has Elemental Renewal for fire, can you heal from Overdrive Damage since it is fire damage?

Yes.

[Yasahiro]

Well, the symbiosis is explained in reagrds to its requirements for it working when the other person is not evolutionist, but how it looks like to a person looking at these two persons? That is what I meant.

Do they see something binding them? Do they see nothing?

[Draken]

Well, the symbiosis is explained in reagrds to its requirements for it working when the other person is not evolutionist, but how it looks like to a person looking at these two persons? That is what I meant.

Do they see something binding them? Do they see nothing?

I should probably add a mechanic to define how "obvious" a mutation is, but as it stands the appearance of any one mutation in use is up to the individual evolutionist. There is no predefined appearance to any one. It could be anything from a misshapen fusion of flesh where rider and mount meet, to something purely spiritual, to a mind-controlling braid that doubles as part of your reproductive system.

[Yasahiro]

I should probably add a mechanic to define how "obvious" a mutation is, but as it stands the appearance of any one mutation in use is up to the individual evolutionist. There is no predefined appearance to any one. It could be anything from a misshapen fusion of flesh where rider and mount meet, to something purely spiritual, to a mind-controlling braid that doubles as part of your reproductive system.

Thank you.

Also, a question. Can a person with living creation mutation technically take a lot of, say, little balls with wings created with his budding creation, Fine sized... and have them count as a Swarm of Animated Objects, with swarm being appropriate size category? I mean, it would make sense... Well, maybe numbers might be difficult to measure, but that depends on size of creatures and size of swarm.

[Milo v3]

Thank you.

Also, a question. Can a person with living creation mutation technically take a lot of, say, little balls with wings created with his budding creation, Fine sized... and have them count as a Swarm of Animated Objects, with swarm being appropriate size category? I mean, it would make sense... Well, maybe numbers might be difficult to measure, but that depends on size of creatures and size of swarm.

Well, you would need 10,000 of them in a 10 ft. square, and even you were level 20, you would need to hope that a fine animated object had a HD of 1/125. This seems unrealistic.

[Necroticplague]

Thank you.

Also, a question. Can a person with living creation mutation technically take a lot of, say, little balls with wings created with his budding creation, Fine sized... and have them count as a Swarm of Animated Objects, with swarm being appropriate size category? I mean, it would make sense... Well, maybe numbers might be difficult to measure, but that depends on size of creatures and size of swarm.

No. s far as I know, there are no rules for turning simply "a lot of creatures" into a swarm. Especially given how there aren't any stats for a swarm of animated objects, to my knowledge. It doesn't give you the ability to make a swarm, it gives you the ability to make animated objects.

[Yasahiro]

No. s far as I know, there are no rules for turning simply "a lot of creatures" into a swarm. Especially given how there aren't any stats for a swarm of animated objects, to my knowledge. It doesn't give you the ability to make a swarm, it gives you the ability to make animated objects.

Well, you would need 10,000 of them in a 10 ft. square, and even you were level 20, you would need to hope that a fine animated object had a HD of 1/125. This seems unrealistic.

Well, that's depressing. Lemme cross it out of my list of things I would love to replicate in D&D.

...unless I convince my DM, hm.

Edit:

Wait. You can control up to 4 times your Mutator Level of animated objects. If you take all Living Creation Mutations, then at level 20 you'd be able to control 10 x 20 HD of animated objects. That's 200 Animated objects if each is 1 HD.

Swarm of Tiny creatures is composed usually of 300 Tiny creatures if non flying. Hm.

[Milo v3]

Well, that's depressing. Lemme cross it out of my list of things I would love to replicate in D&D.

Summon Swarm as a Spell-Like Ability
Karish Companion
Crown of Vermin

[Yasahiro]

Well, let me continue with my constant questioning.

Let's take for example Living Creation, it requires Mutator Level 9 and can be taken once per 3 mutator levels.

Does it mean that when you have ninth level of evolutionist, you can just spend 3 mutations on Living Creation? You would be able to make Large Animated Objects.

Of course, then when you look at Grove and Living Fortress... Let's say that an evolutionist decides to make a castle, become overlord. Can't he just keep making seeds and creating new Animated Objects and at... level 16, when he is capable of taking the Living Creation mutation for 6th time, he can just fill his entire grove with Colossal Animated Objects, making more as they are being dealt with? I mean, since a grove can extend to have one mile radius... That is a lot. And he can send the animated objects one by one or... actually, at level 16 when he took Living Creation for 6th time, he can make up to nine times his HD of Animated Objects. If he has 16 HD, then that's 144 HD worth of Animated Objects. If you create all colossal ones, you can send out up to 4 Colossal Animated Objects out.

I mean, I know their Challenge Rating is 10, but in this case if the Grove is big enough, he can keep sending them and constantly making more.

[darklink_shadow]

To what end? The rogue is going to sneak past them and gut you anyways.

Four dudes to guard a mile radius area isn't enough either. Everyone will just avoid them.

[Draken]

Well, let me continue with my constant questioning.

Let's take for example Living Creation, it requires Mutator Level 9 and can be taken once per 3 mutator levels.

Does it mean that when you have ninth level of evolutionist, you can just spend 3 mutations on Living Creation? You would be able to make Large Animated Objects.

Of course, then when you look at Grove and Living Fortress... Let's say that an evolutionist decides to make a castle, become overlord. Can't he just keep making seeds and creating new Animated Objects and at... level 16, when he is capable of taking the Living Creation mutation for 6th time, he can just fill his entire grove with Colossal Animated Objects, making more as they are being dealt with? I mean, since a grove can extend to have one mile radius... That is a lot. And he can send the animated objects one by one or... actually, at level 16 when he took Living Creation for 6th time, he can make up to nine times his HD of Animated Objects. If he has 16 HD, then that's 144 HD worth of Animated Objects. If you create all colossal ones, you can send out up to 4 Colossal Animated Objects out.

I mean, I know their Challenge Rating is 10, but in this case if the Grove is big enough, he can keep sending them and constantly making more.

That's not a question, it is a scenario description. But yes, it is a thing that can be done.