The better man? There is no such thing [base class]

[ted009]

Hey question can someone please explain the Mutation Limits table, I'm not really getting what it's used for?

[Milo v3]

Hey question can someone please explain the Mutation Limits table, I'm not really getting what it's used for?

It shows how many times you can take the same mutation.

[ted009]

yeah i get that but how does the table itself work i mean how do you use it to find out how many times when most of the mutations say how many times per lvls you can take them I like see like things that are 1/2, 1/3, and the like but i don't know what that means in relations to the class there's nothing that really explains the table in depth like the wizard or sorcerer tables on spells and the like all i just see is Table 2: Mutation Limits and see that it's a limit on mutations but other than that i don't know how to use the table at all? sorry if I'm being and idiot about this

[Milo v3]

yeah i get that but how does the table itself work i mean how do you use it to find out how many times when most of the mutations say how many times per lvls you can take them I like see like things that are 1/2, 1/3, and the like but i don't know what that means in relations to the class there's nothing that really explains the table in depth like the wizard or sorcerer tables on spells and the like all i just see is Table 2: Mutation Limits and see that it's a limit on mutations but other than that i don't know how to use the table at all? sorry if I'm being and idiot about this

Each mutation says how many times it can be taken. 1/2 ML is for when it says that it can be taken once every two mutator levels. The information on it is just above here:

Further Mutations: What the character gains from taking the mutation more times and how many times the mutation can be taken, if it has any unusual limits. If this entry is left empty, the mutation’s basic benefit is received once more (stacking with itself) whenever the mutation is taken. If a mutation can be taken “up to once per X mutator levels”, divide the character’s mutator level by ‘X’ and round the result up to determine how many instances of the mutation he can take.

[ted009]

Evolve Skills
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist gains 6 skill points, plus 2 additional skill points per mutator level.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken up to three times.

Does that mean this can be taken once per mutator levels so I could take it on 1st lvl than 2nd lvl , then 3rd or is that wrong?
Darkvision also doesn't have anything under further mutation either.
Wait why does it need a table if all the mutations say how many times and what lvls you need to wait to take it again?

[Milo v3]

Evolve Skills
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist gains 6 skill points, plus 2 additional skill points per mutator level.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken up to three times.

Does that mean this can be taken once per mutator levels so I could take it on 1st lvl than 2nd lvl , then 3rd or is that wrong?

That means you can take it up to three times.

Darkvision also doesn't have anything under further mutation either.

As the section I quoted says, you can take it an infinite amount of times, each time stacking with itself.

Wait why does it need a table if all the mutations say how many times and what lvls you need to wait to take it again?

It's faster than doing math.

[Draken]

As Milo explained, the table is there for the convenience of readers.

As for how often a mutation can be taken, consider this set of rules.

1. If it does not say "this mutation can be taken once per X mutator levels" then you can take it as many times as your mutator level.

2. If it does mention "this mutation can be taken once per X mutator levels", then check the table for the appropriate value of X. It will tell you the maximum number of repeats for any given mutator level.

3. There will sometimes be a hard cap on how many times it can be taken (either once or thrice, generally speaking). You account for this fact after you check wether points one or two apply.

----

As for the questions on when more stuff is coming... Well. Three issues there.

First. I am working on a Mythos thing. It is hilarious.

Second. My computer broke.

Third. Holidays are upon us, so even once my computer is back, I will probably fly off on vacation to some dreary southern beach with sun, sand and salt and only be back next year.

[ImperatorV]

First. I am working on a Mythos thing. It is hilarious.

What.

I can't wait. Seriously, this is going to be amazing.

[Gideon Falcon]

That will certainly be... interesting. I honestly haven't paid a whole ton of attention to Mythos, just because of the whole 'intentionally overpowered' thing. I suppose it makes sense, though, this class is on the highest end of power short of T1, so it's not as big a step up.

[Milo v3]

That will certainly be... interesting. I honestly haven't paid a whole ton of attention to Mythos, just because of the whole 'intentionally overpowered' thing. I suppose it makes sense, though, this class is on the highest end of power short of T1, so it's not as big a step up.

I'd say tier 3 or 4 to be honest, you can make a focused character really good or you can make a character who is a jack of all trades and average at everything, but you cannot make a character who is brilliant at everything. The highest it could ever be is tier 2, since tier 1 requires being able to swap out most of your stuff but this can only change a tiny portion of their stuff with teratomorphs and the PrC.

[Defiantnight]

I'd say tier 3 or 4 to be honest, you can make a focused character really good or you can make a character who is a jack of all trades and average at everything, but you cannot make a character who is brilliant at everything. The highest it could ever be is tier 2, since tier 1 requires being able to swap out most of your stuff but this can only change a tiny portion of their stuff with teratomorphs and the PrC.

The class itself is high T2, I think, but any particular build could range between T2 and T4, if you were trying hard to gimp yourself

[Draken]

Class as a whole is tier 2 due to limited access to tier 1 problem solving abilities (unique to it and otherwise), but builds for it can go as "low" as tier 4 I suppose, by hyperfocusing.

[nikkoli]

Couple of questions for how stuff works Draken:
1. Where is the corrupt spell list mentioned in the Ancient mutations?
2. If you have telepathy from a source other than evolutionist can you use that to qualify for evolution?
3. Are you immune to your own psychic effusion, because the level you can get it its radius of 110 will nuke yourself every time you use it..?
4. The taint rules are those in HoH right?
I thinks thats all ive got for now.
Also, ideas for the best way to turn into a semi gaseous ball of lighting and negative energy and hatred?

[Necroticplague]

Couple of questions for how stuff works Draken:
1. Where is the corrupt spell list mentioned in the Ancient mutations?
2. If you have telepathy from a source other than evolutionist can you use that to qualify for evolution?
3. Are you immune to your own psychic effusion, because the level you can get it its radius of 110 will nuke yourself every time you use it..?
4. The taint rules are those in HoH right?
I thinks thats all ive got for now.
Also, ideas for the best way to turn into a semi gaseous ball of lighting and negative energy and hatred?

1.Book of Vile Darkness.
2.Yes. Telepathy is Telepathy.
3.Kinda. a.neither Psychic Effusion or the related Pschic Torment are called out as mind-effecting, so using it doesn't inherently trigger it, thus necessarily causing damage. b. Being subject to Psychic Effusion triggers Psychic Torment, which says that you can refrain from dealing damage as a free action.
4. Yep.

[Morphic tide]

First, I think that the Ancient Mutations should be reworked to be a bit more Karish-centric, possibly just add the Karish Broodmothers ability as a Tetramorphism or mutation and have the Mutant Ascendancy or Perfection give you the Karish subtype, with the bonuses of it. Maybe have the subtype be part of the Ascendancy and the Karish Broodmother ability as part of the Perfection. Second, what do banished forms of otherwise-normal life have to do with Elder Evil and Far Realm weirdness? Either make those their own thing and have the Ancient Mutations be Karish-centric, or rename and refluff the thing to fit them. Third, the Broodmother's entry does not state that it gets Mutator levels, which would limit it to only the mutations with no Mutator level requirements, even though the way the word is used, it seems like Mutator level is the caster level for this class.

Next, a basic outline for a build centered on the Karish Broodmother's mutation availability, with the Broodmother as the "outside".
Step one: Find the smallest race with a charisma bonus your DM will allow. Never go for medium size.
Step two: Get Ancient Mutator as a feat and go with Aberration for Mutant Perfection.
Step three: Use terramorphisms on bonus mutations, Karish companion Karish Broodmother and Burrow(for if your shell dies and you have no tanky party members to hide in... which would probably be better to build around, as 2 of your 8 level 20 tetramorphisms are spent on the Kraish).
Step four: Get Symbiosis, Proboscis(deals less damage to the host), Parasitism, Mend, Extrude and healing and buffing spell-like abilities, with boosts to charisma, health and the spell like abilities as mutations. Any remaining mutations should be spent on reach, tentacles and constitution poison, in decreasing priority.
Step five: Find the toughest vermin or ooze you can fit in to use as your Karish Broodmother. For her minions, pick the highest damage you can find.
Step six: Have all mutations on the Broodmother be energy damage attacks(Breath Weapon and elemental nimbus required, ooze if tanking things with natural weapons), survivability(health, healing, AC and damage reduction, with Carrion Swarm required), and further healing and buffing spell likes with boosts to fill empty mutations.
Step seven: Have fun as a self healing, self buffing crowd clearing murderbeast with backup.

Lastly, an outline for one with the PC on the outside. It just kinda turned into a killing field trapper in a base.
Step one: Find the largest race your DM will allow, preferably with a constitution bonus. Or a race with an Essentia boost.
Step two: Get Ancient Mutator, Azure Claws and Form, and Plant Mutator as feats, then get Plant for Mutant Perfection.
Step three: Get Roots, Regeneration 2, Offensive Roots, Karish companion and Karish Broodmother for Tetramorphisms. Get Regrowth with the first Extra Terramorphism feat
Step four: Mutations, in order of decreasing priority, Damage Resistance(whenever available), constitution buff(whenever available), Web(every time it's available), Carrion Swarm, Reach(whenever available), Tentacles(whenever available), Poison(constitution, whenever available), Elemental Resistance(once for each type), healing(source doesn't matter, though a 1st level spell like will make you much better at 20), Grove(Unity, then Mire, then Living Fortress, then Verdant Host whenever it's available), Living Servant(whenever available after getting Living Fortress) then low-level buff spell likes for the remainder(as with the heal, 1st levels are amazing at 20, because they're at will). Mutations you will get once, with when to get: Hardy Damage Resistance right after first rank of Damage Resistance, Verdant Servant the level before Verdant Host and Symbiosis, Budding Creation, Spore and Fungal Growth(highest constitution damage fungus) As Soon As Possible. Your Essentia mutations will be whatever elemental damage is best, with spare mutations you can't use anywhere else into a rotation of Elemental Damage on your tentacles.
Step five: Pick the highest hit dice vermin or ooze with a ranged constitution damager or restraint/slow for the two Karish your Broodmother gets and the highest charisma vermin or ooze with 20 hit dice.
Step six: Load the Karish Broodmother with as many healing and buff spells with extra uses as you can, getting charisma as needed for spell levels. Plus Parasitism, extrude, mend and symbiosis, of course.
Step seven: You have a massive base with regenerating walls, near endless minions, constant chances at constitution damage for anyone without fungal disease immunity and are all but unkillable. Have fun running a base for constructs and undead. Actually, a party focused on base building would make this an interesting character to play. Or lay siege to, given the fact that undead and constrocts get immunity to all the big dangers.

[Draken]

1.Book of Vile Darkness.
2.Yes. Telepathy is Telepathy.
3.Kinda. a.neither Psychic Effusion or the related Pschic Torment are called out as mind-effecting, so using it doesn't inherently trigger it, thus necessarily causing damage. b. Being subject to Psychic Effusion triggers Psychic Torment, which says that you can refrain from dealing damage as a free action.
4. Yep.

Hear.

First, I think that the Ancient Mutations should be reworked to be a bit more Karish-centric, possibly just add the Karish Broodmothers ability as a Tetramorphism or mutation and have the Mutant Ascendancy or Perfection give you the Karish subtype, with the bonuses of it. Maybe have the subtype be part of the Ascendancy and the Karish Broodmother ability as part of the Perfection. Second, what do banished forms of otherwise-normal life have to do with Elder Evil and Far Realm weirdness? Either make those their own thing and have the Ancient Mutations be Karish-centric, or rename and refluff the thing to fit them. Third, the Broodmother's entry does not state that it gets Mutator levels, which would limit it to only the mutations with no Mutator level requirements, even though the way the word is used, it seems like Mutator level is the caster level for this class.

Spoiler: Build stuff, fun, but not really addressable.

Show

Next, a basic outline for a build centered on the Karish Broodmother's mutation availability, with the Broodmother as the "outside".
Step one: Find the smallest race with a charisma bonus your DM will allow. Never go for medium size.
Step two: Get Ancient Mutator as a feat and go with Aberration for Mutant Perfection.
Step three: Use terramorphisms on bonus mutations, Karish companion Karish Broodmother and Burrow(for if your shell dies and you have no tanky party members to hide in... which would probably be better to build around, as 2 of your 8 level 20 tetramorphisms are spent on the Kraish).
Step four: Get Symbiosis, Proboscis(deals less damage to the host), Parasitism, Mend, Extrude and healing and buffing spell-like abilities, with boosts to charisma, health and the spell like abilities as mutations. Any remaining mutations should be spent on reach, tentacles and constitution poison, in decreasing priority.
Step five: Find the toughest vermin or ooze you can fit in to use as your Karish Broodmother. For her minions, pick the highest damage you can find.
Step six: Have all mutations on the Broodmother be energy damage attacks(Breath Weapon and elemental nimbus required, ooze if tanking things with natural weapons), survivability(health, healing, AC and damage reduction, with Carrion Swarm required), and further healing and buffing spell likes with boosts to fill empty mutations.
Step seven: Have fun as a self healing, self buffing crowd clearing murderbeast with backup.

Lastly, an outline for one with the PC on the outside. It just kinda turned into a killing field trapper in a base.
Step one: Find the largest race your DM will allow, preferably with a constitution bonus. Or a race with an Essentia boost.
Step two: Get Ancient Mutator, Azure Claws and Form, and Plant Mutator as feats, then get Plant for Mutant Perfection.
Step three: Get Roots, Regeneration 2, Offensive Roots, Karish companion and Karish Broodmother for Tetramorphisms. Get Regrowth with the first Extra Terramorphism feat
Step four: Mutations, in order of decreasing priority, Damage Resistance(whenever available), constitution buff(whenever available), Web(every time it's available), Carrion Swarm, Reach(whenever available), Tentacles(whenever available), Poison(constitution, whenever available), Elemental Resistance(once for each type), healing(source doesn't matter, though a 1st level spell like will make you much better at 20), Grove(Unity, then Mire, then Living Fortress, then Verdant Host whenever it's available), Living Servant(whenever available after getting Living Fortress) then low-level buff spell likes for the remainder(as with the heal, 1st levels are amazing at 20, because they're at will). Mutations you will get once, with when to get: Hardy Damage Resistance right after first rank of Damage Resistance, Verdant Servant the level before Verdant Host and Symbiosis, Budding Creation, Spore and Fungal Growth(highest constitution damage fungus) As Soon As Possible. Your Essentia mutations will be whatever elemental damage is best, with spare mutations you can't use anywhere else into a rotation of Elemental Damage on your tentacles.
Step five: Pick the highest hit dice vermin or ooze with a ranged constitution damager or restraint/slow for the two Karish your Broodmother gets and the highest charisma vermin or ooze with 20 hit dice.
Step six: Load the Karish Broodmother with as many healing and buff spells with extra uses as you can, getting charisma as needed for spell levels. Plus Parasitism, extrude, mend and symbiosis, of course.
Step seven: You have a massive base with regenerating walls, near endless minions, constant chances at constitution damage for anyone without fungal disease immunity and are all but unkillable. Have fun running a base for constructs and undead. Actually, a party focused on base building would make this an interesting character to play. Or lay siege to, given the fact that undead and constrocts get immunity to all the big dangers.

The theme of the ancient mutations is, well, ancient things and corruption, of which Elder Evils are generally a recurring thing. That being said, the list itself has nothing to do with the EEs themselves, evolutionists don't need to actively cultuate something in order to emulate it.

Also, Broodmother is a direct upgrade to Karish (the templates stack, and Broodmother can only be applied to a Karish), so the Broodmother uses the Karish's mutator level. The two templates also give a massive number of mutations, so giving them as ascendancies/perfections as they stand would be absurd.

Should also note that the overwhelming Majority of Elder Evils have nothing to do with the Far Realm. Father Llymic is the only official one that has any ties to it, truth be told. And most aberrations have no real ties to it either (at least in 3.5's default cosmology, Eberron notwithstanding).

[Morphic tide]

By the Broodmothers ability, I mean the spawning alone, with only the Karish subtype, without the Broodmother one, as an Acendancy, the level 10 ability you can only get one of, or Perfection, the level 20 upgrade to it. One mutation per hit dice at level 20 is not extremely bad, it's usually just an extra one per level. And the Abberition one can get you 10 mutations if you spent your extra tetramorphisms on them, and there are tetramorphisms a LOT worse than 8 mutations in terms of Tier determination, like the one that gives you Burrow. Yes, things of your size category or smaller can follow, but that means that if you get a small race, most enemies can't follow. Also, your party members can follow, giving you a semi-permanent path that blocks anything that can't go through walls or burrow. And you can make underground bases, reinforced with resin to prevent cave-ins. Maybe have the Broodmother ability be a Tetramorphism 6, with the Perfection and certain mutation improvements be necessary for an Epic Feat to give the regular Karish template, having the requirements cause it to be a level 30 feat, where game balance is long dead in 3.5 anyway. And having a small set of mutations improving the spawning of the Broodmother ability would be a nice step towards making a fully Karish-centric build possible.

[Grand Arbiter]

I found this thread late last summer, and it is a truly astounding piece of work.

An idea and a question though:

Idea: An Ancient Mutation that negates/ reduces the penalty for walking on resin, and maybe further mutations provide a speed boost on resin, akin to the Zerg and their creep in Starcraft II. It could open up resin's combat utility a bit more. It could be called "Resinwalker".

Question: From reading the thread, I know that material DR added to the standard results in DR X and magic, but can the Hardy DR mutation be stacked to make it DR X and *damage type* and magic?

Please excuse spelling/grammar errors, posted from phone.
This is one of the threads that got me to finally register :) And hooray for colored text!

[Defiantnight]

I think the Worldskin has something like that, if I remember right. That would be cool though.

[Draken]

I found this thread late last summer, and it is a truly astounding piece of work.

An idea and a question though:

Idea: An Ancient Mutation that negates/ reduces the penalty for walking on resin, and maybe further mutations provide a speed boost on resin, akin to the Zerg and their creep in Starcraft II. It could open up resin's combat utility a bit more. It could be called "Resinwalker".

Question: From reading the thread, I know that material DR added to the standard results in DR X and magic, but can the Hardy DR mutation be stacked to make it DR X and *damage type* and magic?

Please excuse spelling/grammar errors, posted from phone.
This is one of the threads that got me to finally register :) And hooray for colored text!

I think the Worldskin has something like that, if I remember right. That would be cool though.

Worldskin does indeed do that, since that one is more meant to function the way creep does, whereas resin is (for the most part) solid and should be thought of more as the black stuff xenomorphs make their nest out of (but not necessarily black).

[nikkoli]

On spell likes, does the cleric list from outsider get added once you take the feat or do you need to spend a mutation to unlock cleric list then can mutate cleric SLA's?

[Omnicrat]

On spell likes, does the cleric list from outsider get added once you take the feat or do you need to spend a mutation to unlock cleric list then can mutate cleric SLA's?

lists are automatically available.

[Gideon Falcon]

So, I read it over again, and Symbiosis is way too powerful. With only one Evolutionist, it's fine, but with two it's literally the Fusion power, but better in every way:
-No XP cost
-No Power Point Cost
-No Duration limit
-Two (or more) turns per round
-Available at very low levels.

I would suggest heavily nerfing the full function, if not getting rid if it completely.

[Defiantnight]

I've never used that mutation, but it looks awesome to make a SC Archon

[Omnicrat]

Has anyone actually played an evolutionist in game that didn't end after a session or two (or PbP equivilant)? I haven't, and I for one would like to...

[Defiantnight]

Me too... I technically have, but mostly because I was DMing.

[nikkoli]

I have. His name is Snurff. He is a gnoll who is obsessed with dragons, and Astral dragons in particular and is trying to become one. I haven't played the class past level 3 yet but I've played more than a few sessions with the same character.

[Khaibit]

I played a whisper gnome that was pretty focused on construct evolutions. It was pretty badass, he was a little ninja cyborg that basically had a mega buster in his arm (the spine launching one combined with a lot of the sonic elemental infusion one) and would launch magic missiles out of his shoulders to pick off anyone left (the construct one that lets you shoot the missiles as a swift action). We started at level 6 and he made it to level 12 before the campaign petered out 8ish months later.

[Morphic tide]

Bumping with a semi-relevant bit of talk.

I think that there should be a Fey set of mutations, as in the sort you get from those mutator feats. Speaking of the feats, there is a lack of simple ones, like a feat to give one or two extra mutations. And a small bit of rearranging of the setup, if only in a note, to make it directly compatible with the Swarmlord so you can use your Swarmlord levels to pay for evolutionist Mutations and vice versa.

[Necroticplague]

Bumping with a semi-relevant bit of talk.

I think that there should be a Fey set of mutations, as in the sort you get from those mutator feats.

This runs face-first into the same problem as introducing Ooze or Vermin as types: what would you bring? All the main notable abilities of fey are already there, there's already a fey teratomorphism. Fey is built into the base of the class as it is.