WarHammer, WarMachine, or Malifaux?

[DefKab]

So, to put it simply, I'm looking for a good war game to maybe invest in, and I wanted to hear some opinions of expert gamers...

WarHammer is good for customizability. Your models can be legos, and each one can have a different load out of equipment, making each army you build completely unique. That said, the minimum you need is some 800 points for an HQ and two squads, and I'm looking for some kind of small, tactical combat. Tell me why you guys prefer Warhammer, and which is your favorite army.

WarMachine looks freakin' amazing. The models are all pewter, and the detail is incredible. That being said, you're stuck to what you bought. Sure, each character has a variety of abilities, but if you've only got one squad, then you're playing the same tactics over and over again. The price is way cheaper than WH, and the troop number is less, and it seems the weapons have a variety of effects beyond killin's, so it might rank higher. Tell me what you think. Is the flavor any good?

Speaking of WarMachine, it looks very much like an old Classic, Battletech!
Now, I've been a fan of Battletech for many years, so I know a lot about it, enough to make an educated decision that I don't want to invest in its 20 year old clunky ruleset. But tell me if you have any good feelings about it.

Malifaux is a rather new squad based dark horro based wargame, and the flavor looks outstanding. It's dark, gritty, and sometimes humorous, but I fear it'll suffer the same downsides of WarMachine, mainly that you don't have much customizing. This is the only one I haven't seen in play of the four, so my knowledge is VERY limited.
Anyone play this enough to educate me?

So, that's my plight, please feel free to input any of your opinions or experiences, but respect each others in the same hand...
Anyone know of any other good wargames besides the one I listed?

I know someones coming out with an Airship wargame, anyone hear about that?

[DaedalusMkV]

Here's my suggestion: Go to your LGS. If you've got multiples, go to all of them. Ask around and see which of them have players for which games on a regular basis, and if they know of any gaming clubs in the region. If anyone will know how much of each game is being played, it's the LGS owners. Having a big old Warmachine army won't do you any good if there are only two other Warmachine players in your region and they both only play on the second sunday in january. If, and only if, there is a reasonable player base for a game in your region should you consider taking it up. Otherwise, you're just getting models to build and paint, and the rules don't mean anything.

As rules go, I've heard good things about Malifaux, and I've played a ton of both Warhammer games, but I'm not a big fan of Warmachine. There is very obviously a "right way" to play Warmachine, and doing anything else is only useful to the degree it confuses your opponent. From what I'm told (I've only played three games, myself, and don't own any models), it leads to a lot of tactical stagnation at higher levels of play. If Cygnar is fighting Cryx, the game is going to play out the same way almost every time.

Regardless, good luck finding a game that suits your needs.

[HerbieRAI]

Ask around in your local stores, the game doesn't matter nearly as much as the player community.

If you do choose Warhammer Fantasy, I'd suggest Ogres. They are decently powerful army with small model count (most of which are plastic), which should get you going in the game a bit faster.

[Lost Demiurge]

Hi there! I know the most about Malifaux, so I'll talk a lot about it and leave the other games to those mor knowledgeable...


Malifaux is a skirmish game. Of the three you selected, it's got the smallest models-on-the-table count for the average game, and it's got a well-thought-out scenario mechanic. Only occasionally are you going to be trying to kill your enemy's leader for the victory. And it is still possible to win the game if your own leader is dead!

Mind you, you'll find it useful to whittle down your opponent's forces no matter the scenario, but there are many and valid alternatives to going straight for the throat, depending on what strategy you randomly select, and what schemes you choose.(When playing a game, you draw a card to randomly determine what scenario(strategy) you and your opponent play. You may have completely different goals from your foe, or they might be the same. About 12 different scenarios. The strategy earns you the most victory points, but is hard to pull off. You've also got schemes, which are things that you choose. They're like subquests. If you pull them off, you get more points. Maybe even enough that you can ignore the strategy, focusing on foiling your foe's strategy and schemes, and hit your own schemes for the win. Tricky, but if the main strategy is infeasible...)

Customization? Yeah, it's pretty low. This is one of those games where your entire customization comes from the models in your force. But, here's the thing... With different scenarios to attempt, you're going to want to mix and match your force up to best suit the goal and the opponent you're up against.

And you can't beat the entry fee! Fifteen bucks gets you the rulebook. Forty bucks or thereabouts gets you a box. The box contains one master (The leader of your forces, equivalent to a warcaster/warlock in warmachine) and 3-8 support units which synch well with that master. The boxes are almost always a good deal, and all you need to play a minimum points game. Minis vary from 10-50 bucks bought on their own, but overall I find that the prices are better than warhammer or warmachine.

The best way I find to go about it is to buy two boxes from the same faction. Fifteen plus forty plus forty is around $100... That'll give you enough models to play a fifty-point brawl, which is the largest most games get! It'll also give you two leaders to swap between and try out, and plenty of troops that you can swap out as you need.

Let's see, some good boxes to mix and match...

Spoiler

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1. GUILD: The Ortegas and Lady Justice: Very well suited to beginner's play, and strong enough to remain good in the high end! Perdita is one of the strongest masters in the game, and a hell of a gunslinger. She and her family bring along a strong gunline, and are good for generally any task. She is DEATH to most Neverborn, when used properly. Meanwhile, Lady Justice is a warrior, flat and simple. She can kill damn near anything that gets within reach of her sword, and her death marshall buddies are strong at both a distance and up close. Most of them are also Slow to Die, which means that even when they're dropped, they'll get in one last hit. They mow through Resurrectionist forces like a chainsaw through rye bread, and can get rid of corpses to prevent the resurrectionists from making more undead. This is a big deal! Both of these masters are decent against any faction, really. They shine when they're up against their particular specialties, though. This is one of the Guild's calling cards, is employing specialists for anti-faction play. Not always 100% effective, depending on your opponent's crew, but it can give you a good edge.

Models to consider for future expansion: Exorcist, Abuela Ortega.

2. OUTCASTS: The Viktorias and the Freikorps (Von Schill): Okay, this is a fun pairing. Especially since Von Schill's a Henchman! This means that other masters can employ him as a minion. BUT, he's bad*** enough that he can lead a crew himself, if he needs to. Also, these boxes have the advantage that everyone within them is a mercenary, and can be hired by other factions. So if you pick up another faction later, you can still use the models from these boxes! Good times. Anyway, the Viktorias are two deadly-but-fragile warriors. They can kill damn near anything, but keeping them alive while doing so is tricky. Their box is a selection of some of the better melee mercenaries in the game. Oh, and a guy called Bishop. He's not that good. But that's fine, because Johan and Taelor have very big hammers, and do obscene amounts of damage close up. The Viktorias box is full of melee might, but a little light on ranged oomph. That's where Von Schill and the Freikorps come in! The Freikorps are a professional merc group, all with great armor, good guns, and a few nifty tricks. You want tactics? The Freikorps team can deliver! The box alone has a great healing caster with a few nasty arcane tricks, two standard grunts which are affordable and tough, a sniper who can set up on the field beforehand, and a dude with a Flamethrower. Not to mention Von Schill himself, who plays like an action movie hero. These guys kick copious amounts of butt. Gets even more fun when you play viktoria, hire von schill as a minion, and he brings his friends along... Remember, you only have to pay the mercenary hiring cost when you're going cross faction! When you're using an outcast master, you're paying base cost all the way...

Models to consider for future expansion: A blister of Ronin, a Desperate Mercenary or two. Maaaaybe Killjoy.

3. RESURRECTIONISTS: Nicodem and Seamus: Welcome to the dark side! Nicodem can raise up any type of non-unique corporeal undead in the game! (So long as you have the model.) Seamus is a survivalist, who boosts his troops and is hard as hell to kill! Between the two of 'em, you'll be bringing your models back again, and again, and again... Nicodem's box provides Mortimer, a very good way to get corpse counters early in the game, and a sturdy enough fella that you can use him to mop up and hold objectives in the endgame. It also provides three punk zombies... These guys are DEADLY, when used properly. Paired katanas and a base attack of 7? Yikes! Now use Nicodem's Bolster Undead action to take it up to 9, and improve their defense at the same time. Seamus specializes in the ladies... He's got madame sybil, a decent and tough beatstick, but his big tactical ploy comes with the Rotten Belles. These lovely ladies lure foes by forcing them to approach, and tear them to shreds with rotting fingers once they get close enough. Seamus himself also has a REALLY big gun, some nasty spells, and myriad ways of healing. He's TOUGH. Nicodem, on the other hand, is more of a controller. His fog spell is easy to cast and provides good cover for his area, and he's got a reliable means of paralyzing opposing models... One of the nastiest conditions in the game! His damage spell is meh, but can be used to heal friendly undead, so no worries. All in all, this pairing has the most expandability... It'll do well enough with just the two boxes, but between these two masters, you can make use of almost any undead troop in the game...

Models to consider for future expansion: 1-2 packs of mindless zombies, the copycat killer, the grave Spirit, Molly Squidpidge, the Dead Rider, a flesh construct, crooked men... etc...

4. ARCANISTS: Ramos and Kaeris: The Arcanists are a little rough, in that each of the masters has their own theme. They want to focus on that theme, and thus finding two of them that have interchangeable troops is tough. Fortunately, the arcanists have an AWESOME henchman! Ramos is a sturdy master, with good defenses. He's got a nasty ranged attack, but most of the time you'll want him in the back summoning up spiders and building them into swarms. Kaeris, on the other hand, is a ranged attacker who should be near the front setting everyone on fire. Ramos' box includes two spider swarms and a steamborg executioner. The executioner's a risk... It's hellish in melee, but it's a LOT of points. The swarms, on the other hand, are pretty deadly, but more in the fashion of a piranha swarm. They'll nibble you to death with numbers. They can also split up into individual spiders, handy for harassing. Kaeris' box includes three fire gamins and two gunsmiths. The gunsmiths are great at putting bullets into bad guys, and the gamins are good expendable bundles of flame that can ignite things up close or at medium range. Also note that as a henchman, Kaeris can be hired by Ramos. Good times!

Models to consider for future expansion: Mobile Toolkit, Brass Arachnid, Johan, another Arachnid Swarm.

5. NEVERBORN: Zoraida and Collodi: The neverborn are a little rough, since most of the masters focus on working with their specific crews. But Zoraida? Zoraida doesn't care. She's got your opponent's crew to play with, too! She can cast a wicked spell on anyone she can see! As long as they're not immune to influence, and she can win a willpower duel, they have to take a single action under her control. So use your foe's best minions to tear him to bits! Put her on a high place, and if enemies come near turn into a raven and fly off. Good times! The Silurids that come in her pack are a little tough to use... Decent line troops, but they have drawbacks. Still, their funky abilities make up for some of their problems. Bad Juju is expensive, but a hell of a hard hitter! So long as you can keep him from getting shot to bits before he can start mauling, he will come in handy as both a tank and a killer. Meanwhile, Collodi is a puppetmaster with INSANE mobility, and the ability to take quite a lot of things apart with multiple attacks from his marionettes. Whom he can rebuild if they happen to end up destroyed. Oh, also those marionettes can pull him and the other marionettes along the board, crossing it as easily as you or I could play hopscotch. The wicked dolls have good synergy with zoraida, and can teleport back to their master easily. Pretty fun for hit and run tactics!

Models to consider for future expansion: Voodoo Doll, Stitched Togethers

But hey, even if you don't like those combos, there are some other things you can try.

DECENT STANDALONE BOXES

GUILD

Sonnia Criid's witchhunters: Sonnia is the anti-arcanist guild master. Her witchling stalkers are solid hitters that blow up when they die. Very useful! Sammael Hopkins is one of the nastier shootists in the guild, rivaling the ortegas for hard-hitting bullets. C. Hoffman's constructs: One of the smaller boxes, but a sturdy crew nonetheless! Hoffman is a master of machines, who focuses on using and improving his metal troops. You really need a Peacekeeper and Ryle to get the most out of him, but hix box has pretty good value regardless.

Lucius and the Elite Division: Lucius is the guild henchman. He's a bit odd... Most of his stuff involves ordering his own minions to get extra actions, and enhancing their mobility. He's okay as a leader... A little weak in the muscle department, especially with his hiring choices. Still, you get Ryle, a Guild guard captain, and a Guild guard in the box. Solid minion choices for the guild! You also get a lawyer... Eh, this guy's honestly of limited use. He's got a few tricks you can pull with him, but he's a bit expensive for what you get.

OUTCASTS

Leviticus and the Soulless: Okay. Leviticus is the most complicated master in the game. You have to repeatedly kill and revive him, or he doesn't work too well. And the minions that work best with him are kind of specific to him and him alone. But the saving grace to Levi is that he can recruit ANY undead or construct model in the game. So you've got a vast store of minons, even henchmen to draw upon! LOTS of customizability, as long as you're willing to pony up for the figs. The box contains Rusty Alyce (Who is a sweet shootist), a hollow waif (Necessary for reviving Levi), and four steampunk abominations. You really need a desolation engine and maybe another hollow waif to make this box work at higher levels, but it's decent enough. Just... Be aware he's tough as hell to play if you're just starting. Running Levi is like playing solitaire at the same time as you're playing timed chess.

Ophelia and the Lacroixs: These are the gremlin version of Perdita's family! They play very similar to miss Ortega, and they are GOOD at what they do. They're a cheap, quick gunline that can do surprisingly good damage, but they come up a little short when they have to deal with things that target their willpower, or are resistant to guns. You really need a slop hauler or two and some young lacroix to get them to work, but they can be a hell of a good time. Sadly, as gremlins, they only have a few types of minions they can mix with. And that's why they're not a top tier box.

RESURRECTIONISTS

Molly and her Horrors: Molly is fun! The problem is, she's pretty restricted in who she can hire. She's the resurrectionist henchman, though, which means that she can be hired as a minion by other masters. So she's good for backup, but a little lacking when acting as a master. Her box is okay... The Crooligans are good stealthy types, and the Rogue Necromancy's a hard hitter. But you really do need a necrotic machine and some belles to get the most out of molly as a master.

ARCANISTS

Collette and the Showgirls: Okay, Collette is an obscenely-good caster, distraction expert, and finesse master. The problem is, she is tricky to learn and until you get there, you're going to get beaten up a lot. Also, like most of the arcanists, she focuses on units that are only really useful to herself. So her showgirls don't mix and match too well with other masters. Also, you'll need to pony up for a single blister of mechanical doves, she loses one of her best tricks otherwise. Still, once you've paid her tithe, she can reward you with AWESOME amounts of chicanery and frustration to your foes.

Rasputina and her cult: Raspituna is a glass cannon. She can blast things to bits with her ice magic, but tends to fall apart if you get close. Fortunately, her gamin are a good expendable front line, and the golem's a decent tank. Her box is marginally okay, but for higher point play you'll really want a silent one and a huge wendigo model called Snow and Storm. But the box is okay right from the get go. Raspy is simple... Boom as you like, ice pillars to block off your foes, and make sure your guys blow up and take people with them if they get into melee. The only reason this box isn't a great starter is that again, like most of the arcanists, her stuff doesn't play well with others.

NEVERBORN

The Dreamer and Lord Chompy Bits: The Dreamer is complicated. He's also pretty strong, and fun! He got nerfed recently, but still remains very good once you figure out how to use him. His box includes Coppelius and 2 stitched togethers, all very good troops. The problem is that it's a bit too little... You really need some daydreams and blister of alps to make it work. Otherwise you're going to be a little underpowered. Once that's bought, though, the options open up a bit.

Lilith's Brood: Lilith is a great warrior, with a mechanic for growing her troops to their full potential! She starts with terror tots, grows them to young nephilim, then raises them to the terrifying gargoyles that are mature nephilim. Used properly, she can raise a force of elite, fast, flying maulers. Sure, they're a little weak defensively, but with aggressive play that doesn't matter much. The problem arises when you realize that the box only includes one mature nephilim, and no young nephilim. So you're going to need to invest in some young and a couple of mature more... And maybe a black blood shaman to raise them faster... And maybe Nekima, because she works well with them... ::Sigh:: Good master, but the minions are gonna cost you some dough.

BOXES TO AVOID (At First)

OUTCASTS

Hamelin and the Plagued: Well, this box includes lots of stuff. Problem is, you're going to need it all, and then some. Hamelin is a brutal master who's hard as hell to kill. With the proper model and tactical support, he's downright unfair unless up against a crew set up to counter him. This box really needs a couple of ratcatchers and MORE rat models to get going. But still, as long as you don't mind picking up a few models that only work well with Hamelin, he can provide a fun game. Just expect your opponent to hold a grudge if you keep using the guy...

Som'er Teeth Jones and his gremlins: Som'er teeth's good, but... He's basically a great summoner, but his box doesn't have enough that he can get his best schtick going from turn 1. Meaning you'll have to take losses before he can replenish'em. And he's a gremlin, which means that he can only hire other gremlins! Fortunately, he can take Ophelia as a henchman and her high quality Lacroix gremlins as minions. So if you combine Some'er teeth and Ophelia, they make a sweet little combination... But these two boxes don't play well with others, at all. And you're STILL going to need to buy more gremlin and pig units if you want it to work well at the higher end of play. So yeah, avoid this one until and unless you're deep enough in the game that you don't mind plunking down for this combo.

RESURRECTIONISTS

Kirai and the Spirits of Vengeance: So, Kirai? She is GREAT, once you learn how to play her. The trick is, learning how to play her is a little rough. Lots of trial and error. The other trick is that the units she needs, the spirits, are best used with her. So there's not a lot of cross-master employment for her models. But once you learn to play her? WOW. The problem is, you're going to need more than her box to do well. Lost love and another pack of seishin are mandatory, and youll need some gaki as well. Oh, and also a shikome... Kirai a summoner who only gets most of her utility when you add on models to her box. But once you do, WOW. She's fun.

Mcmourning and the Body Thieves: Okay. First off, Mcmourning is an AWESOME master! He's the warrior of the resurrectionists, and though a little fragile, can pretty much dismantle anything he starts an activation next to. He also works with body parts, instead of corpse counters, which means that so long as he's cutting, he's getting material to pop out a flesh construct or even a few dogs, if you really need weak minions now. The problem is, most of his box is made of fail. The Flesh Construct is great! But you don't want to start with that on the table, it's more efficient for the points if you summon it during play. Sebastian is a decent melee guy, but way too slow and a little frail for his points. The nurses are bad. Just flat bad. You'll never need more than one, you'll only need that one in certain armies, and this box gives you two of'em. So yeah. If you go resurrectionist then pick up mcmourning and the construct as individual minis and you won't regret it. But buying the box is a bit of a waste.

ARCANISTS

Marcus and his beasts: Poor, poor Marcus. They made him so damn underpowered, that it's a crime. Then they saddled him with an underpowered minion class... AKA, beasts. And on top of that, his box sucks. The Razorspine Rattler and Sabretooth Cerberus look cool, but once they take a few hits they start falling to pieces. Myranda is mediocre at best for her points.

Avoid this box, trust me. It's not worth it for the heartbreak.

RESURRECTIONISTS

Pandora and her sorrows: Okay. Pandora is TOUGH. She's a hell of a caster, has some surprisingly effective defenses, and can mind-screw pretty much anything into oblivion. But her box is lacking... The woes boost her, it's true. They're good for their cost. But Candy and Baby Kade are a bit underwhelming. Pandora needs blockers to keep fast-moving things off of her and the woes, and hitters to capitalize on her mind screws, and the box doesn't provide. Pass.

[Mx.Silver]

As has been said before, scouting out what the player base is like in your local area is something you should be looking into - unless you're mostly looking to get into this for the modelling which it doesn't sound like you are. Either that or be prepared to get two smaller armies to teach other people how to play.
As to recommendations, it kind of depends on what it is you're looking for in a wargame. Not just in terms of rules and scale, but also whether fluff matters to you, what sort of terrain requirements there are and how much time you want to spend modelling and painting.

[CN the Logos]

Malifaux is the only one I have a tremendous amount of experience with, although prior to investing I took a look at the other games you've mentioned, and Malifaux won me over by a large margin.

Some reasons for this:

• The Victorian/Steampunk/Western/Gothic/Fantasy/Horror aesthetic seems like it'd clash with itself and be overly silly, but it actually blends fairly well. The result is a distinctive appearance for the game in general that nonetheless offers a lot of variety in what you can field, appearance/fluff-wise.
  
  
• No, you can't choose different wargear for models in Malifaux. If you want, for example, your Death Marshalls to trade their coffin for more usefulness against enemy spellcasters, you take Witchling Stalkers instead. I don't consider this any different than WHFB/40k however. Sure, if you're playing Orks in 40k you can choose whether to model them as Shoota Boyz (ranged) or Slugga Boyz (melee), but you have to pick one or the other, and in official tourneys you have to play them as whatever you decided to model them as (What You See Is What You Get). If you want more options in WH40k, you'll have to buy more models, the same as with Malifaux; you might be able to magnetize the bigger vehicles' weapon choices, but how are you going to switch weapon choices on something as small as an individual infantry model? So versatility of tactics used by individual models isn't actually a factor.
  
  
• The creation of various models/factions is all handled by the same group of people, so you don't see the tremendous variability you do in the gameplay viability and writing quality of factions in certain other games *coughhack40kwheeze* Of course the game's not perfectly balanced, no game with that many variables is, but the difference in power between a supposedly "low tier" faction and a "high tier" one isn't terrible. For the most part any faction/master can be a viable choice, although there are some I wouldn't recommend to newbies just because of complexity and required investment.
  
  
• The creators are involved with the community and actually take player feedback regarding certain models into consideration, although they don't go too far in the other direction and nerf everything that even looks like it's thinking about being good either. I appreciate the even-handed approach here.
  
  
• It's cheap. Exact cost to get a tournament-worthy force together depends on who you're going with, but in general you can play 20 to 25 soulstone games right out of the starter boxes, and two to three more blisters of minis will get you to 35 to 40SS (most tourneys for Malifaux are run at 30 to 35). It varies depending on faction, but most masters can share minions with other models in their faction, so if you decide to later expand to another master in the same faction, it will be even cheaper than your initial buy-in.
  
  
• Any game where Oogie Boogie and Revolver Ocelot (wearing steampunk Iron Man armor) can leap out from behind a building and shoot Jack the Ripper in the face holds a place near and dear to my heart.

So yeah, I vote Malifaux if you have anyone else to play it with. It is a great game. Let me know if you've got any questions about it, I haven't got every model's stats memorized or anything, but I can probably point you in the right direction if nothing else.