Simple Q&A D&D 4e Thread II: Electric Boogaloo

[Vince]

A 368

This isn't really a RAW question, and isn't a simple one, either. It deserves its own thread. I'd recommend putting it in the Roleplaying Games general forum rather than the 4e-specific forum, as "how to be a good DM" is universal.

Cool, thanks. I'll be honest, I don't even know what RAW means...

[NecroRebel]

Cool, thanks. I'll be honest, I don't even know what RAW means...

Rules as Written. Basically, just what's in the books free with the most straightforward interpretation as possible. This is sometimes contrasted with RAI, rules as intended or interpreted, where it's possible to argue about what was actually meant (and people do argue about that, sometimes at great length and with great rancor).

[Vince]

Excellent stuff, thanks for that. I found a relevant thread in the RPG section, what I've really taken to heart is 'if unsure, make it up'. Hooray for coming from an improv background!

[Echobeats]

Q369

Say a hybrid Runepriest doesn't take the Rune Master class feature, so no +1 attack/resist 2 damage for his allies as a result of his being in a Rune State. Can he still use the Rune of Destruction/Protection "effect" line in his Runepriest powers?

[allonym]

Q369

Say a hybrid Runepriest doesn't take the Rune Master class feature, so no +1 attack/resist 2 damage for his allies as a result of his being in a Rune State. Can he still use the Rune of Destruction/Protection "effect" line in his Runepriest powers?

A369

No.

Unless they take the Hybrid Talent option, a hybrid Runepriest entirely lacks the Rune Master class feature, and therefore cannot select and does not have any of the benefits of Rune of Destruction or Rune of Protection, including power riders.

See below.

[tcrudisi]

A369

No.

Unless they take the Hybrid Talent option, a hybrid Runepriest entirely lacks the Rune Master class feature, and therefore cannot select and does not have any of the benefits of Rune of Destruction or Rune of Protection, including power riders.

This is incorrect.

A 369 Fixed
page 217 of the PHB 3 defines the Runic keyword.

Runic: You use these rules when you use a runic power.
* Choose First: When you are going to use a runic power, you first choose one of the runes in the power and then use the power, applying the chosen rune's effects.
* Rune State: You are then in the rune state associated with the chosen rune until you enter a new rune state or until the end of the encounter. Blah blah blah, more stuff that's not important.

The Rune Master class feature says:
"Whenever you enter the rune state of the rune of destruction or the rune of protection, you gain an ADDITIONAL benefit. The benefit lasts while you're in the rune state.

Rune of Destruction: Allies gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls blah blah.
Rune of Protection, While adjacent to you, allies look cool and stuff."



What does this mean? Let's say you are a hybrid Runepriest and you use their healing power, Rune of Mending.

You choose the rune state before casting the spell. In this example, you chose the Rune of Destruction. You then heal your ally for awesome amounts of damage. Then, you and each ally in the burst gain a +2/4/6 power bonus to damage rolls until the end of your next turn. You do NOT gain "Allies gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls blah blah" that the Rune Master class feature gives you (unless you've taken it as a hybrid talent, of course.)

[Joval]

Q370

My DM has a PHB1 that reads "Your DM usually uses your
passive Perception check result. If you want to use the
skill actively, you need to take a MINOR action or
spend 1 minute listening or searching, depending on
the task."

Mine reads as follows, "Your DM usually uses your
passive Perception check result. If you want to use the
skill actively, you need to take a STANDARD action or
spend 1 minute listening or searching, depending on
the task."

What am I missing?

[Ashdate]

Q370

My DM has a PHB1 that reads "Your DM usually uses your
passive Perception check result. If you want to use the
skill actively, you need to take a MINOR action or
spend 1 minute listening or searching, depending on
the task."

Mine reads as follows, "Your DM usually uses your
passive Perception check result. If you want to use the
skill actively, you need to take a STANDARD action or
spend 1 minute listening or searching, depending on
the task."

What am I missing?

A370: While I'm not 100% sure, what likely happened is that your DM has a later printing of the PHB, where the skill was updated. The Perception skill was errataed such that it normally takes a minor action to "use", so older versions of the PHB will incorrectly suggest what yours does.

[Echobeats]

This is incorrect.

A 369 Fixed
page 217 of the PHB 3 defines the Runic keyword.

Runic: You use these rules when you use a runic power.
* Choose First: When you are going to use a runic power, you first choose one of the runes in the power and then use the power, applying the chosen rune's effects.
* Rune State: You are then in the rune state associated with the chosen rune until you enter a new rune state or until the end of the encounter. Blah blah blah, more stuff that's not important.

The Rune Master class feature says:
"Whenever you enter the rune state of the rune of destruction or the rune of protection, you gain an ADDITIONAL benefit. The benefit lasts while you're in the rune state.

Rune of Destruction: Allies gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls blah blah.
Rune of Protection, While adjacent to you, allies look cool and stuff."



What does this mean? Let's say you are a hybrid Runepriest and you use their healing power, Rune of Mending.

You choose the rune state before casting the spell. In this example, you chose the Rune of Destruction. You then heal your ally for awesome amounts of damage. Then, you and each ally in the burst gain a +2/4/6 power bonus to damage rolls until the end of your next turn. You do NOT gain "Allies gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls blah blah" that the Rune Master class feature gives you (unless you've taken it as a hybrid talent, of course.)

Thanks so much for this: I no longer have to ditch my build!

[Tegu8788]

Q 731

Does shifting have an inherent direction to it? If a character has a flight speed, can he shift up?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Q 731

Does shifting have an inherent direction to it?

No.

If a character has a flight speed, can he shift up?

Yes, as far as I know, although RAW is rather mute on flight rules in general.

(a more interesting question is: can you push a flying character into the air?)

GW

[Dimers]

(a more interesting question is: can you push a flying character into the air?)

Forced movement is normally two-dimensional; all the squares of the movement must be on the same horizontal plane. Forced movement can become three-dimensional when the target is flying, is moved through a substance such as water, or is on a non-horizontal surface, such as an incline, that supports it. This means an earthbound target cannot normally be pushed to a square in the air, but a hovering target can be. Similarly, a target can be pulled down a flight of stairs, and it can be slid in any direction underwater.

White text to satisfying posting minimum.

[Tegu8788]

So, if while flying yes, but if on ground now. Now, that leads to another question.

Q 372

If a flying character with an altitude limit 1 is forced to move through forced movement to a square no longer one square above the ground, would he fall to the ground and take damage, or fall back down to the new limit 1 square? Or does it not matter, because the end of his turn he was in the right limit?

[Kurald Galain]

If a flying character with an altitude limit 1 is forced to move through forced movement to a square no longer one square above the ground, would he fall to the ground and take damage, or fall back down to the new limit 1 square? Or does it not matter, because the end of his turn he was in the right limit?

Altitude limit is only checked at the end of your turn. Yeah, 3-d rules for 4E are rather messy and incomplete.

[Echobeats]

This is incorrect.

A 369 Fixed
page 217 of the PHB 3 defines the Runic keyword.

Runic: You use these rules when you use a runic power.
* Choose First: When you are going to use a runic power, you first choose one of the runes in the power and then use the power, applying the chosen rune's effects.
* Rune State: You are then in the rune state associated with the chosen rune until you enter a new rune state or until the end of the encounter. Blah blah blah, more stuff that's not important.

The Rune Master class feature says:
"Whenever you enter the rune state of the rune of destruction or the rune of protection, you gain an ADDITIONAL benefit. The benefit lasts while you're in the rune state.

Rune of Destruction: Allies gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls blah blah.
Rune of Protection, While adjacent to you, allies look cool and stuff."



What does this mean? Let's say you are a hybrid Runepriest and you use their healing power, Rune of Mending.

You choose the rune state before casting the spell. In this example, you chose the Rune of Destruction. You then heal your ally for awesome amounts of damage. Then, you and each ally in the burst gain a +2/4/6 power bonus to damage rolls until the end of your next turn. You do NOT gain "Allies gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls blah blah" that the Rune Master class feature gives you (unless you've taken it as a hybrid talent, of course.)

Q369b

So presumably the Runic effects of the power apply even if I miss, yes?

[Dimers]

A 369b

So presumably the Runic effects of the power apply even if I miss, yes?

No, because the effects are nested under the "Hit:" line. The indentation helps to clarify that, as does the lack of "Effect:" line. Theoretically powers could be made with the Runic keyword that have Effects regardless of accuracy, but those presented in PH3 don't.

EDIT for clarity: However, the runepriest class feature Rune Master does provide its benefits on a miss, since you gain the benefit simply from being in a rune state.

[Echobeats]

Q/A 369b

A 369bNo, because the effects are nested under the "Hit:" line. The indentation helps to clarify that, as does the lack of "Effect:" line. Theoretically powers could be made with the Runic keyword that have Effects regardless of accuracy, but those presented in PH3 don't.

EDIT for clarity: However, the runepriest class feature Rune Master does provide its benefits on a miss, since you gain the benefit simply from being in a rune state.

What is the basis for saying they are part of the "Hit" line, not a standalone effect? None of them say "Hit: 1[W] + Str damage, and [rune effect]". The words "Rune of Destruction" and "Rune of Protection" are typed in bold, are followed by a colon, and have a separate background colour (as in, the alternating white/beige background changes for each rune effect description). This to me suggests they are on a par with an "Effect" line. The term "Effect" is not used because that wouldn't be specific enough: there is a choice to be made between two possible effects, of which only one can apply.

I also note that the description of the Runic keyword on PHB3 p217 says "When you are going to use a runic power, you first choose one of the runes in the power and then use the power, applying the chosen rune's effects [my emphasis]". If that was intended to read "applying the chosen rune's effects if you hit", surely it would say so rather than leaving it to be implied merely by the formatting?

(Can anyone else shed some light before this gets to new-thread-requiring levels?)

[tcrudisi]

Q/A 369b



What is the basis for saying they are part of the "Hit" line, not a standalone effect? None of them say "Hit: 1[W] + Str damage, and [rune effect]". The words "Rune of Destruction" and "Rune of Protection" are typed in bold, are followed by a colon, and have a separate background colour (as in, the alternating white/beige background changes for each rune effect description). This to me suggests they are on a par with an "Effect" line. The term "Effect" is not used because that wouldn't be specific enough: there is a choice to be made between two possible effects, of which only one can apply.

I also note that the description of the Runic keyword on PHB3 p217 says "When you are going to use a runic power, you first choose one of the runes in the power and then use the power, applying the chosen rune's effects [my emphasis]". If that was intended to read "applying the chosen rune's effects if you hit", surely it would say so rather than leaving it to be implied merely by the formatting?

(Can anyone else shed some light before this gets to new-thread-requiring levels?)

Dimers is correct. They are nestled under the Hit line, therefore they only work if you hit.

Now, do note, that you choose which rune state before you make the attack roll, right? That's because you ARE entering a Rune State.

But, what's the difference?

Well, it matters. Let's use a Half-Elf Fighter as an example. He happened to choose Word of Shielding as his dilettante power. He goes to use Word of Dilettante and chooses the Rune of Destruction. If you hit, you get the effect: "The 1st time the target hits or misses you or an ally adjacent to you with an attack before the end of your next turn, the target takes damage equal to your Con mod. Blah blah." But, even if you miss, you enter into the Rune of Destruction.

Now - for the Half-Elf Fighter, that probably doesn't mean anything. He's in the Rune of Destruction for the entire encounter, but what benefit does that really grant him? In short, probably nothing.

BUT - there are some times when it might. For example, take the Hammer of Vengeance paragon path. It allows you to enter into a new rune state. I don't remember what that rune state is called, so I'll nick-name it the "Awesome" rune state. When you are in the Awesome rune state and an enemy adjacent to you attacks you, you can attack it back as an immediate action. That's what the Awesome rune state does. Note that this Half-Elf Fighter doesn't have the "Rune Master" class feature to get the "additional" bonuses. He doesn't need it. He still enters into the "Awesome" Rune State and gets to use that rune state.

Yes, it's a bummer that you have to hit to get the nestled abilities, but it IS indented under the hit line. (Note: some rare powers, like the heal, don't require hitting to get the runic effect.) But it is accurate, I promise. :)

[ghost_warlock]

Q 370 How do item powers that convert damage interact with other ways of converting or admixing damage?

For instance, if a storm sorcerer is using a Lightning Weapon dagger to convert his damage to lightning and he uses a power that he's used Arcane Admixture to add thunder damage, will the power deal just lightning or will it deal lightning and thunder?

[Ashdate]

Q 370 How do item powers that convert damage interact with other ways of converting or admixing damage?

For instance, if a storm sorcerer is using a Lightning Weapon dagger to convert his damage to lightning and he uses a power that he's used Arcane Admixture to add thunder damage, will the power deal just lightning or will it deal lightning and thunder?

A 370: Arcane Admixture adds the keyword to a power; it does not "override" anything. An item like a Lightning weapon changes all damage to lightning; it effectively loses the benefit you gave the power through Arcane Admixture. Changing all the damage to lightning (through a Lightning Weapon) removes all other damage keywords, and adds the lightning one (Rules Comp p 115).

[Echobeats]

Dimers is correct. They are nestled under the Hit line, therefore they only work if you hit.

Now, do note, that you choose which rune state before you make the attack roll, right? That's because you ARE entering a Rune State.

But, what's the difference?

Well, it matters. Let's use a Half-Elf Fighter as an example. He happened to choose Word of Shielding as his dilettante power. He goes to use Word of Dilettante and chooses the Rune of Destruction. If you hit, you get the effect: "The 1st time the target hits or misses you or an ally adjacent to you with an attack before the end of your next turn, the target takes damage equal to your Con mod. Blah blah." But, even if you miss, you enter into the Rune of Destruction.

Now - for the Half-Elf Fighter, that probably doesn't mean anything. He's in the Rune of Destruction for the entire encounter, but what benefit does that really grant him? In short, probably nothing.

BUT - there are some times when it might. For example, take the Hammer of Vengeance paragon path. It allows you to enter into a new rune state. I don't remember what that rune state is called, so I'll nick-name it the "Awesome" rune state. When you are in the Awesome rune state and an enemy adjacent to you attacks you, you can attack it back as an immediate action. That's what the Awesome rune state does. Note that this Half-Elf Fighter doesn't have the "Rune Master" class feature to get the "additional" bonuses. He doesn't need it. He still enters into the "Awesome" Rune State and gets to use that rune state.

Yes, it's a bummer that you have to hit to get the nestled abilities, but it IS indented under the hit line. (Note: some rare powers, like the heal, don't require hitting to get the runic effect.) But it is accurate, I promise. :)

Q 369b

I suppose there's enough of a consensus that I should concede this one. At any rate, the interpretation I've been arguing for would be rather OP. But I still think it's bad editing to have an important RAW question governed entirely by formatting when the only text on the subject is misleading at best. I'm sure that's not the only example though...

[Echobeats]

So my group played an all-day one-shot yesterday, and a few questions came up during play which I thought I'd post here to see if we got the answers right.

Q 373

If I'm dominated, can I be made to attack myself? Circumstances, if it matters, were that I was knocked prone and nobody else was within my range.

Q 374

If I had resist 1 all and 3 temp HP, which do I apply first? Say I take 2 ongoing damage at the start of my turn; do I lose 1 or 2 temp HP?

Q 375

If one PC imposes slowed (save ends) on an enemy, and, before it saves, another PC does the same, does the enemy have to succeed on two saving throws before it stops being slowed? I'm sure it should, but the DM was reluctant to accept it, on the grounds that "two identical conditions don't stack" (which I think is getting the wrong end of the stick).

Cheers all.

[Gavran]

Q 373

If I'm dominated, can I be made to attack myself? Circumstances, if it matters, were that I was knocked prone and nobody else was within my range.

A 373
As long as the attack is At-will and targets creatures rather than enemies, yes. There are some shenanigans involving taking Free actions and liberal rules interpretation that are better left unexplored and are effectively shut down by the "The DM can limit the number of free actions available" rule.

Q 374

If I had resist 1 all and 3 temp HP, which do I apply first? Say I take 2 ongoing damage at the start of my turn; do I lose 1 or 2 temp HP?

A 374
Resistances apply before damage is taken, temp HPs are removed before real HPs when damage is taken. You lose 1 THP.

Someone else will have to answer 375, afaik identical effects (100% identical that is, so slowed and dazed is different from dazed) don't stack, but I don't have a source for that and I've seen many varying thoughts.

[Ashdate]

Q 375

If one PC imposes slowed (save ends) on an enemy, and, before it saves, another PC does the same, does the enemy have to succeed on two saving throws before it stops being slowed? I'm sure it should, but the DM was reluctant to accept it, on the grounds that "two identical conditions don't stack" (which I think is getting the wrong end of the stick).

Cheers all.

A375: Identical penalties stack as long as they came from different game elements, but with identical conditions, you ignore all but one (Rules comp 228). So if a PC or enemy is subject to a slowed (save ends) and is then hit with a power that also inflicts slowed (save ends), the player/DM ignores one of them.

However, if the conditions are different - even if they contain the same condition - they stack. So slowed (save ends) and slowed and dazed (save ends) are considered different effects, so the creature must roll saving throws against both.

EDIT: incomplete answer. Fuller answer below.

[Echobeats]

A 373
As long as the attack is At-will and targets creatures rather than enemies, yes. There are some shenanigans involving taking Free actions and liberal rules interpretation that are better left unexplored and are effectively shut down by the "The DM can limit the number of free actions available" rule.

I did check the power's target to see if that would give me an out, but it was "one creature" (my MBA). At least now I know I wasn't cheated.

A 374
Resistances apply before damage is taken, temp HPs are removed before real HPs when damage is taken. You lose 1 THP.

Good, I got that right then.

A375: Identical penalties stack as long as they came from different game elements, but with identical conditions, you ignore all but one (Rules comp 228). So if a PC or enemy is subject to a slowed (save ends) and is then hit with a power that also inflicts slowed (save ends), the player/DM ignores one of them.

However, if the conditions are different - even if they contain the same condition - they stack. So slowed (save ends) and slowed and dazed (save ends) are considered different effects, so the creature must roll saving throws against both.

This isn't what I understand "stacking" to mean, which is why I thought the DM was raising the wrong objection to my argument. Maybe another example would be clearer.

Say I am subjected to ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends), twice. I take 5 damage at the start of my turn, not 10, because they don't stack. But if I save against one, aren't I still affected by the other?

Ashdate referenced the Rules Compendium: is there a way I can access this online? I have a D&DI subscription but when I look for the compendium there is just a link to buy a printed book. It's not that expensive but I would need intercontinental shipping.

[Ashdate]

This isn't what I understand "stacking" to mean, which is why I thought the DM was raising the wrong objection to my argument. Maybe another example would be clearer.

Say I am subjected to ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends), twice. I take 5 damage at the start of my turn, not 10, because they don't stack. But if I save against one, aren't I still affected by the other?

Okay here's the deal, with as much clarity as I can give. My original post was only half-correct (and in some ways, deceitful) so let me try and be as clear as possible.

Penalties: Penalties stack unless they come from the same named element (RC p 314). In a case where two penalties come from the same game element, you take the worst of the two (RC p.29) However...

Creatures cannot be affected by identical conditions that a save can end. You can't be subject to ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends) twice. With any condition that a save can end, you can only be subject to it once. If two monsters hit you with powers that deal ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends), you ignore the second effect.

So in the scenario where the following effects happens to you during a single turn...

-4 penalty to your next attack roll
After your first attack roll, -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of the enemy's next turn
immobolized until end of the enemy's next turn
immobolized (save ends)
immobolized (save ends)
ongoing 5 fire (save ends)
immobolized and ongoing 5 fire (save ends)

Your character would take a -6 penalty to their next attack roll, have a -2 penalty to the rest of their attack rolls until the end of the enemy's their next turn, and be immobilized until the end of the enemy's next turn.

The player would also be affected by three conditions a save can end: immobolized (save ends), ongoing 5 fire (save ends), and immobolized and ongoing 5 fire (save ends).

Does that clear things up?

Ashdate referenced the Rules Compendium: is there a way I can access this online? I have a D&DI subscription but when I look for the compendium there is just a link to buy a printed book. It's not that expensive but I would need intercontinental shipping.

All rules from the rules compendium are (to my knowledge) in the online compendium. If you search for "Saving Throws" under the Glossary category, you can find the rules I'm referencing.

[Echobeats]

Okay here's the deal, with as much clarity as I can give. My original post was only half-correct (and in some ways, deceitful) so let me try and be as clear as possible.

Penalties: Penalties stack unless they come from the same named element (RC p 314). In a case where two penalties come from the same game element, you take the worst of the two (RC p.29) However...

Creatures cannot be affected by identical conditions that a save can end. You can't be subject to ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends) twice. With any condition that a save can end, you can only be subject to it once. If two monsters hit you with powers that deal ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends), you ignore the second effect.

So in the scenario where the following effects happens to you during a single turn...

-4 penalty to your next attack roll
After your first attack roll, -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of the enemy's next turn
immobolized until end of the enemy's next turn
immobolized (save ends)
immobolized (save ends)
ongoing 5 fire (save ends)
immobolized and ongoing 5 fire (save ends)

Your character would take a -6 penalty to their next attack roll, have a -2 penalty to the rest of their attack rolls until the end of the enemy's their next turn, and be immobilized until the end of the enemy's next turn.

The player would also be affected by three conditions a save can end: immobolized (save ends), ongoing 5 fire (save ends), and immobolized and ongoing 5 fire (save ends).

Does that clear things up?



All rules from the rules compendium are (to my knowledge) in the online compendium. If you search for "Saving Throws" under the Glossary category, you can find the rules I'm referencing.

Fantastic, thank you! (That's for both answers)

[TimeWizard]

Q376
How does a Druid get Summon Natural Ally? I cant find it on the builder anywhere. I am level 12 if that helps.

[Tegu8788]

A 376

You either have to be a Sentinel Druid to have it, or take the feat Call to the Wild to replace a daily with the summon.

[dariathalon]

A376

I think you mean that you have to be a protector druid or take the feat you mentioned.