OOTS #851 - The Discussion Thread

[toapat]

Ahahaha!

Elan is useful! I wonder if he will catch on Taqruin's grammar.

Btw, how do you catch arrows in D&D? And what's the damage when being stabbed by an arrow?

ok, so Combat expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strikes, Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, Improved Grapple, Two Weapon Fighting (at the very least), Defensive Throw, and Combat Reflexes
damage wise, Haley's arrows, being piercing, would function identically as daggers (1d6 19-20x2, Piercing), except that they can not be wielded proficiently, and deal non-lethal damage.

Great strip, in any case, love the "hold person" joke and we actually witness some hint that Durkon do have a chin wich almost managed to break free !

Impossible, Bearded dwarves do not hide a chin under their beard, only another beard.

I also think trying to slice someone from the back of a flying dinosaur would bring some penalty to attack rolls, and if that was a power attack it just carries the penalty further, so he is actually a formidable attacker aswell.

Charging grants a +2 attack bonus

Yes, her bow is Icy Burst.

Close, her bow is +5 Mintyburst

[Lintecarka]

I hope if Belkar should die anytime soon Tarquin is going to fill the evil party member slot. So much fun watching him whatever he does.

[cc_kizz]

This was pretty awesome. I love how Elan doesn't miss a beat on his lute. And oh my goodness! Tarquin is getting skewered all over the place!

[natrl20]

I'm not sure how anyone can think that Tarquin is
-not at least few levels higher than anyone the Order
-ineffective offensively
-not freaking bad ass and one of the coolest characters in the comic

He hasn't had a proper turn yet (except the ferocious surprise attack on Roy), as he lost his will save against Elan's helpless-adorableness/being-your-child spell-like-ability.

But who will he attack in earnest?
Not Elan--he won't kill him.
Not Haley--he doesn't want Elan to hate him.
Not Roy--he likes and admires Roy and wants to work with him.
Not Durkon--as a favor to Malack.

only the poor Belkster. and i guess V, if he were on the scene.

But I think T definitely wants to have a relationship with the Order over all, and Elan especially. Probably he wants to be able to work with them if the situation requires it, and I definitely don't think he wants to be as hated by them as he would be if he killed on of them (except maybe B...)

I agree that T's disguise won't last more than another comic or 2, and that Belkar's ability to smell him is besides the point now, given how crappy his Thog impersonation has been.

[natrl20]

Question to y'all more knowledgable:
Is it harder to catch an arrow fired by a higher level character (or higher attack bonus attack?).
If so, does that tell us something about how much higher level T is than Haley?
I mean, a level one monk can't catch arrows all day shot by a level 20 rogue, right?

[Forikroder]

I concur. I already loved Tarquin (as an awesome villain, of course), but this made me squee like a little girl.
Just one thing. In the 5th panel, Tarquin stabs Belkar in the right side, but the next (and last) panels have the arrow coming out of the left side. Is this just perspective, or what's up with that?

must be an art mistake or Blekar got replaced with a mirror image

He hasn't had a proper turn yet (except the ferocious surprise attack on Roy), as he lost his will save against Elan's helpless-adorableness/being-your-child spell-like-ability.

he had 3 turns, his first turn he attacked Roy, his second turn attacked Belkar and his third turn he attacked Durkon

But who will he attack in earnest?
Not Elan--he won't kill him.
Not Haley--he doesn't want Elan to hate him.
Not Roy--he likes and admires Roy and wants to work with him.
Not Durkon--as a favor to Malack.

only the poor Belkster. and i guess V, if he were on the scene.

can people stop thinking this way?

he has no problem brutally killing everyone in the order except MAYBE Elan, remember his while scenario about Elan killing him? if anything he wants Elan to hate him

Question to y'all more knowledgable:
Is it harder to catch an arrow fired by a higher level character (or higher attack bonus attack?).
If so, does that tell us something about how much higher level T is than Haley?
I mean, a level one monk can't catch arrows all day shot by a level 20 rogue, right?

no it gives us no information the feat doesnt scale with level a lvl one monk could catch an arrow fired from a lvl 300 ranger assuming he knew the arrow was coming and was ready for it

[Omergideon]

So Tarquin is shown to be able to get the drop on the Order, do well in a fight and hurt them, but the Order have clearly done some damage. 3 Arrows, a Dagger and a sword through the side is gonna remove a good chunk of HP for anyone not epic. I predict, based on the exchange, Tarquin will play a great defensive game and hold them off but that the Order will be able to hurt him bad. In short a pretty fair and even fight that could go either way based on things we don't know. The kind that works very well. Tarquin, if he plays purely defensive, may make me respect his character a bit more. Not fully, and I do dislike him still, but less so. Potentially.

Still my thoughts are more detailed.
The Good:
1) There is almost no dialogue bubbles to clutter up the action. Now this is a little detail, but for such an action heavy strip that could have been wordy it was the best choice.
2) And speaking of our action art, my word was is well drawn. Not only is it fast paced, shot from multiple angles and well designed (and logical) but there is more. The action really does teach us a lot about Tarquin as a character. He is all about using other people's moves against them. Controlling their movements and avoiding being the guy who gets hurt. This also matches up with how he rules the Kingdoms, the Man behind the man, and as a martial artist I love seeing character in fight scenes. Tarquin is deceptive in combat, and sneaky and slippery. And Not Thog at all.
3) The exchange between Elan and Tarquin was great. It was not a long one, but it was funny and sweet in a way. Someone earlier mentioned it was naive and happy Elan, not just stupid Elan. And it was. It was an incredibly characterful moment. Elan's self awareness was brought up, but he was able to contribute as a Bard, not a Dashing Swordsman. It may not be more significant, but Elan could be responding to everything by returning to his roots as a person. And thus Bardic. I mean his fight with Tarquin seemed to be a big knock to Elan as a DS, and his confidence. I think this is a sign of the deeper element, but that is just me.

And there is nothing bad. This is a **** strip easily. Action packed, but revealing of character. With a great final joke and Elan being so Elanish that I must smile. I look forward to seeing this battle continue and experiencing the goodness.

[natrl20]

"he had 3 turns, his first turn he attacked Roy, his second turn attacked Belkar and his third turn he attacked Durkon"

I thought those were attacks of opportunity, like someone said.
like this:
1)He attacked roy, that was the end of turn 1
2)everyone else went (whiffing and giving attacks of opportunity).
3)it was his turn but he stood there puzzled by elan
4)everyone else went and attacked him...
no?

"he has no problem brutally killing everyone in the order except MAYBE Elan, remember his while scenario about Elan killing him? if anything he wants Elan to hate him"

i just don't buy it. he is a more complex character than that. he loves what he does; he has fun as an villain and a flair for the dramatic, and he like playing the long game, working both sides against the other.

He is definitely evil, and isn't trying to kiss the order's asses or anything, but i don't think he wants to totally burn any bridges with them.
and he definitely wants to cultivate a relationship with Elan. he would not kill Elan, and I think you just don't understand his character if you think he would. I don't think he'll kill Nale or let him be killed, either. that's why he reached so hard for a reason to stop Malack from killing back when they caught him.


"no it gives us no information the feat doesnt scale with level a lvl one monk could catch an arrow fired from a lvl 300 ranger assuming he knew the arrow was coming and was ready for it"

I hope that's not true, because it's weak sauce. doesn't that nerf the f out of archery compared to melee and spells, which scale?

[WalkingTarget]

Are we assuming that Durkon's True Seeing wore off between last comic and this one or maybe artist oversight?

[natrl20]

"he had 3 turns, his first turn he attacked Roy, his second turn attacked Belkar and his third turn he attacked Durkon"

I thought those were attacks of opportunity, like someone said.
like this:
1)He attacked roy, that was the end of turn 1
2)everyone else went (whiffing and giving attacks of opportunity).
3)it was his turn but he stood there puzzled by elan
4)everyone else went and attacked him...
no?

"he has no problem brutally killing everyone in the order except MAYBE Elan, remember his while scenario about Elan killing him? if anything he wants Elan to hate him"

i just don't buy it. he is a more complex character than that. he loves what he does; he has fun as an villain and a flair for the dramatic, and he like playing the long game, working both sides against the other.

He is definitely evil, and isn't trying to kiss the order's asses or anything, but i don't think he wants to totally burn any bridges with them.
and he definitely wants to cultivate a relationship with Elan. he would not kill Elan, and I think you just don't understand his character if you think he would. I don't think he'll kill Nale or let him be killed, either. that's why he reached so hard for a reason to stop Malack from killing back when they caught him.


"no it gives us no information the feat doesnt scale with level a lvl one monk could catch an arrow fired from a lvl 300 ranger assuming he knew the arrow was coming and was ready for it"

I hope that's not true, because it's weak sauce. doesn't that nerf the balls off of archery compared to melee and spells, which scale?

[ti'esar]

I concur. I already loved Tarquin (as an awesome villain, of course), but this made me squee like a little girl.
Just one thing. In the 5th panel, Tarquin stabs Belkar in the right side, but the next (and last) panels have the arrow coming out of the left side. Is this just perspective, or what's up with that?

The last panel looks like possible artist error, but there's nothing wrong in the 6th - Tarquin is using Belkar's own inertia to throw him and is swinging him around. The arrow's still in his right side, it's just that Belkar's facing the opposite way now.

And as far as the "how much damage has he taken" argument goes, it is true that impalement does seem to be one of Rich's indicators for major damage. So I think Tarquin's taken a big hit. But is he about to go down? Not likely.

[Subzero008]

I have a theory about the extent of Tarquin's abilities:
1: He charged ahead of everyone without caring about any traps
2: There are moments when he could've used the axe but didn't
3: Tarquin is, or at least looks heavier than Roy, yet dodged attacks from him, Belkar, and Haley.
4: He threw Durkon in full plate, and wields an axe which Thog used with two hands, with only one hand for both.
5: Despite being impaled, stabbed in the knee, and shot(and hit) by three arrows, Tarquin does not cry out.

I think the OotS is a bit out of their league here. Also, the enchanted armor must have something else besides a way to disguise; perhaps he avoided striking anyone but Roy with the axe to avoid killing them.

Bonus: Should the arrow have frozen Belkar?

[Forikroder]

I thought those were attacks of opportunity, like someone said.
like this:
1)He attacked roy, that was the end of turn 1
2)everyone else went (whiffing and giving attacks of opportunity).
3)it was his turn but he stood there puzzled by elan
4)everyone else went and attacked him...
no?

no

the attack on Belkar could possibly have been an attack of opportunity but the attack on durkon couldnt have been since durkon wasnt in his threatened square (hence the attack happened after the spell not before the spell) therefore he made 100% 2 attacks (one on Roy one on Durkon) and possibly one on belkar though it is conceivable that was an AoO

but i don't think he wants to totally burn any bridges with them.

tell that to:
Roys shoulder
the prisoners who were burnt alive to write a message for Elan
Haleys dad

hes burnt the bridges with the order already theres no turning back now, its not like hes gonna whip off his mask sout april fools and everyone will have a good laugh over his funny prank

that's why he reached so hard for a reason to stop Malack from killing back when they caught him.

Nale has information that Tarquin needs, he cant kill Nale until he has that information, if Nale didnt have a bargaining chip Malack tears of his head and possibly eats his insides

I hope that's not true, because it's weak sauce. doesn't that nerf the f out of archery compared to melee and spells, which scale?

only one arrow can be caught each turn

And as far as the "how much damage has he taken" argument goes, it is true that impalement does seem to be one of Rich's indicators for major damage. So I think Tarquin's taken a big hit. But is he about to go down? Not likely.

hes a high level fighter, Thog and roy took tons more damage in there fight and neither of them really went down

2: There are moments when he could've used the axe but didn't

only against Durkon, he couldnt catch an arrow without a free hand and since belkar attacked at the same time he had no time to drop the arrow

and i suppose against Roy too but tripping him would have been more effective way to keep him from acting as the meat shield

3: Tarquin is, or at least looks heavier than Roy, yet dodged attacks from him, Belkar, and Haley.

i ahve no idea why you think this or why you think weight is at all relavant

4: He threw Durkon in full plate, and wields an axe which Thog used with two hands, with only one hand for both.

1) its a different axe
2) Roy could carry the entire order on his back and run with them assuming they dont have any rediculously heavy items like livestock or something
3) carrying an axe one handed is not the issue, he cant swing and do meaningful damage without both hands

5: Despite being impaled, stabbed in the knee, and shot(and hit) by three arrows, Tarquin does not cry out.

so what?

Bonus: Should the arrow have frozen Belkar?

no the enchantment is on the bow not the arrow as soon as he caught it it lost its magic

and the shot doesnt always freeze probably only on a crit or super crit

[KoboldRevenge]

I guessing that someone has stated this already but it seems that Tarquin's advantage seems to be something reactionary. Such as he has to be attack to get a bonus when he counter attacks.
Thus why he was taken aback when Elan did nothing.

Also thats usually my tactic in a multi-player gamer distract them so someone else can get'em.

[King of Nowhere]

I got the impression that tarquin is fighting mosly for fun. looks like he's confident to win easily if he tried, but the oots are just strong enough to make it sporting.
He also don't give the impression of wanting to kill anyone. I have no idea what his plans are, and I'm not trying to find them.

By the way, do you think durkon is gonna fall down the stairs after being thrown that way, and fall into the same trap as V, thus finding V? Not very likely, but could be...

[natrl20]

well that's good, so an epic archer could still kill a lev 1 monk in one turn, if not one shot.
it still seems f'd up that the lev 1 monk could catch an epic ranger or archer's arrow though... just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't doubt that Malack wants to kill Nale, but Tarquin def does not want Nale to die. Tarquin is just too vain--his sons who look exactly like him are images of him and the more awesome they are, the more 'legendary' he becomes. He cherishes both of them as his legacy, and he needs both of them to have the awesome good v evil twin thing that he went through a lot of trouble to set up (like he told Elan when they re-met).

[Valyrian]

I'm not sure how anyone can think that Tarquin is
-not at least few levels higher than anyone the Order
-ineffective offensively
-not freaking bad ass and one of the coolest characters in the comic

I'm not sure how anyone can think that everyone else needs to be a Tarquin fanboy just like themselves.

I mean, it was a great strip, but all the gushing and "if Tarquin's wounded it doesn't count, if the order gets injured he's kicking their asses" arguments really left a sour taste for me.

[Forikroder]

well that's good, so an epic archer could still kill a lev 1 monk in one turn, if not one shot.
it still seems f'd up that the lev 1 monk could catch an epic ranger or archer's arrow though... just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't doubt that Malack wants to kill Nale, but Tarquin def does not want Nale to die. Tarquin is just too vain--his sons who look exactly like him are images of him and the more awesome they are, the more 'legendary' he becomes. He cherishes both of them as his legacy, and he needs both of them to have the awesome good v evil twin thing that he went through a lot of trouble to set up (like he told Elan when they re-met).

no he couldnt because the ranger could stand 5 feet in front of the monk, and with his insanely high hide check and being able to hide in plain sight, the monk would ahve no idea at all that the ranger was there

if a lvl 20 ranger lets the monk knows hes there and stands in front of him and shoots, then the monk can block it but theres no way a low level monk could find a high level ranger before the ranger starts shooting

[natrl20]

no he couldnt because the ranger could stand 5 feet in front of the monk, and with his insanely high hide check and being able to hide in plain sight, the monk would ahve no idea at all that the ranger was there

ok, but here too (as for a rogue, no doubt), archery depends for effectiveness on stealth.
in general is archery weak w/out stealth?

if i wanted to build a high dex/high con tank archer who never hid or relied on stealth and just entered the battlefield or picked a visible high ground spot and blasted away with arrows, would that just suck?

just out of curiosity...

Clearly, those attacks did serious damage on T, although no way he's out, nevermind his ring--how fast does on of those puppies give you health, btw?

[Eigenclass]

How did Belkar remove the arrow he'd been stabbed with and then stab it into Tarquin's foot with daggers in both hands?

[Smolder]

How did Belkar remove the arrow he'd been stabbed with and then stab it into Tarquin's foot with daggers in both hands?

It's a new arrow, one of three coming in from the right side, from Haley off-panel, as shown by the blue flight lines.

yes i understand i dont capitalize or use prununciation as well as i should, yes it has been brought to my attention numerous times, no i dont think its ever going to be something that will ever get fixed, im terribly sorry if for some reason you think it makes my posts harder to read but its something ive tried to fix for a while and its unlikely ill ever completely fix it

That's okay, but I will always read your posts in Thog's voice.

[Forikroder]

That's okay, but I will always read your posts in Thog's voice.

omg that sounds wierdly awesome

i am adding that to my sig

if i wanted to build a high dex/high con tank archer who never hid or relied on stealth and just entered the battlefield or picked a visible high ground spot and blasted away with arrows, would that just suck?

youd need to be a fighter or ranger and go for a really high strength bonus so you could use a composite bow to maximize damage
(composite bows lets you add your strength bonus to your damage)

[Subzero008]

1) its a different axe
2) Roy could carry the entire order on his back and run with them assuming they dont have any rediculously heavy items like livestock or something
3) carrying an axe one handed is not the issue, he cant swing and do meaningful damage without both hands

If Roy could carry the entire party, why bother getting horses? If he was strong enough to carry the entire freaking party(Haley's loot, armor, etc) he could smash the temple with his bare hands.

You generally do more damage with an axe with both hands; Tarquin feels like he doesn't need to. This either means that Tarquin is dangerously overconfident, or maybe he is just that good.

so what?

Seeing how Miko, RC, Xykon, Nale, Elna, pretty much everyone screams, yells, etc. when they are wounded badly, Tarquin should be noted to have a massive pain tolerance. I think Soon's spirit and the MitD are the only ones who have not reacted to any attack.
What I'm saying is that Tarquin's defenses must be massive, and the Order should be wary of him.

[Forikroder]

If Roy could carry the entire party, why bother getting horses? If he was strong enough to carry the entire freaking party(Haley's loot, armor, etc) he could smash the temple with his bare hands.

dont be ridiculous, hes not a monk do you know how hard that rock probably is? unless he gets his hands enchanted to ignore hardness its not happening

and roy moves 30 feet a round, horses move like 100 feet a round

You generally do more damage with an axe with both hands; Tarquin feels like he doesn't need to. This either means that Tarquin is dangerously overconfident, or maybe he is just that good.

or maybe he kept a hand off his axe so he could catch an arrow when its shot at him and to grapple the dwarf

cause the ONE TIME he swung the axe he had both hands on it and he had both hands on it when he faced elan (using the broadest usage of the term faced)

Seeing how Miko, RC, Xykon, Nale, Elna, pretty much everyone screams, yells, etc. when they are wounded badly, Tarquin should be noted to have a massive pain tolerance. I think Soon's spirit and the MitD are the only ones who have not reacted to any attack.
What I'm saying is that Tarquin's defenses must be massive, and the Order should be wary of him.

hes taken one attack (although it was multiple sources of damage all at the same time), Roy didnt scream like a girl everytime he took one of thogs attacks, he grunted a couple times but actual crys of pain are very rare

Shojo didnt cry in pain when Miko almost cut him in half, clearly his defences are amazing and hes just faked his death with maxed bluff checks

[thepsyker]

My favorite thing about the thread will be something I think anyone who's played a bard can sympathize with...while everyone is attacking, casting, and parrying, the bard sits there playing his lute...it's great for comic effect when shown in a semi-(very semi-)realistic way it's balanced, but rather ludicrous. :P

Meh, I'm playing a bard now and between the double specialization, backstabing, shapechanging and absurd number of hit dice he's pretty tough in combat.... Oh, wait! You mean 3.5 bards. Yeah they are pretty much only useful for support, unlike the crazy druidic ninja awesomeness that is the 1st edition Bard. Although come to think of it I have won some combats just by playing my lute, believe me it is fun to see your GMs face when he rolls a nat. one on his 10 headed fire-breathing hydras save versus being charmed.

[t209]

I hope Elan didn't screw it up (by fulfilling his death plan).

[ZerglingOne]

Owwwww, 3d10+15 + 3d6 cold, 2d6 + 5 + 1.5x str, and 1d4 + some magic bonus + str. That definitely hurt.

[Fitzclowningham]

In panel 3, Tarquin is holding his axe in his left hand while Haley's arrow streaks toward him. In the next panel, he calmly snatches it out of the air with the same left hand. At first I thought it was an art bug, but after re-reading the comic a few dozen times, I realize it's probably a subtle indication on Rich's part of how quick, how calm, and how just plain badass Tarquin is.

[DreadArchon]

Hahahaha, go Elan!

[Fitzclowningham]

Owwwww, 3d10+15 + 3d6 cold, 2d6 + 5 + 1.5x str, and 1d4 + some magic bonus + str. That definitely hurt.

Don't forget, Tarquin is pretty well flanked there. There's 24d6 sneak attack damage happening too. (How'd you get 1d10 for longbow arrows? I thought they were 1d8.)