Pathfinder Alchemists and Summoners in 3.5

[Empedocles]

Does the alchemist base class, from PF's Advanced Player's Guide, really need to be changed to be adapted to 3.5 (besides minor stuff like skills)? If it can be brought in as is, what Tier would it be?

Basically just looking for advice on using a PF alchemist in a 3.5 campaign, but hoping to avoid major rewrites.

EDIT: Upon requests from a player, I'd like to expand this question to include the summoner as well.

[Need_A_Life]

In 3.5, using the Artificer base class gets you all the tricks quicker, easier and more things too boot.

Roughly, I'd put rangers and alchemists on the same tier.

[docnessuno]

The summoner works quite well in 3.5, but i'd make some minor changes here and there:

Summoner: Change HD to d6, skills to 4+int, take a brief look at the SpC and add some spells to his list. Remember to downscale the spell levels of some of those.

Eidolon: Reduce HD to d8, add +2 con to all forms. Modify share spell to have spells affect both the summoner and the eidolon. Add martial weapon proficiency baseline.

Overall i'd place it in mid/low tier 3

[Empedocles]

In 3.5, using the Artificer base class gets you all the tricks quicker, easier and more things too boot.

Roughly, I'd put rangers and alchemists on the same tier.

Really??? The alchemist strikes me as at least tier 3...Tier 4 is just harsh, especially with his versatility.

The summoner works quite well in 3.5, but i'd make some minor changes here and there:

Summoner: Change HD to d6, skills to 4+int, take a brief look at the SpC and add some spells to his list. Remember to downscale the spell levels of some of those.

Eidolon: Reduce HD to d8, add +2 con to all forms. Modify share spell to have spells affect both the summoner and the eidolon. Add martial weapon proficiency baseline.

Overall i'd place it in mid/low tier 3

So it would be balanced...but why the HD reductions and constitution additions? That seems redundant.

[docnessuno]

Hp reduction and free martial proficiency are in-line with the 3.5 outsiders rules (also buff eidolon skills to 8+int, i forgot), the Con bump is to keep the HP on the same level.

[Empedocles]

Hp reduction and free martial proficiency are in-line with the 3.5 outsiders rules (also buff eidolon skills to 8+int, i forgot), the Con bump is to keep the HP on the same level.

Oh yeah my bad that makes sense. Good idea

[Menteith]

I'd put the Alchemist at Tier 3 if you take Infusion and focus on Bombs/Extracts instead of on melee. Strong buffer/debuffer, can fill an unused extract slot with 1m of prep time giving them ~spontaneous casting out of combat, and adds extracts the way a Wizard adds spells. They have a decent skill list, can do solid damage, and have the tools to solve many out of combat situations - that's Tier 3. They also have UMD if I remember correctly, which lets them fill in the gaps in their abilities. On a side-note, Mindchemist's Perfect Recall combines incredibly well with Knowledge Devotion.

[Empedocles]

So basically...there're no major conversion issues with either class?

[deuxhero]

Not really. You'll need to give Summoners concentration (I'd up them to 4+int skills even in PF, but with a skill tax and no int dependence I'd defiantly do it, but not strictly "needed") and both could use non-core spell additions.

The favored class alternatives for both classes are great (extra bombs/bomb damage and extra evolution points) and will be missed, but aren't strictly required.

Both classes are pretty tier 3, though Summoner may go into a VERY low tier 2 in 3.5 thanks to some spells that were nerfed no longer being so and new non-core spells giving it the key "can break the game" ability, but not a real concern. Alchemist gets a slight buff from 3.5 environment (he can quick draw bombs), but nothing tier changing.

edit:

Traits are pretty important to Summoner thanks to being a charisma focused class with none of the social skills as class skills (even 3.5 Sorcs got bluff), so it may be an issue.

Of course, you'll want to convert the support feats (Extra Evolutions, Extra Bombs at the most basic).

[Lonely Tylenol]

As for all classes in Pathfinder, I'd look at scaling back the Hit Dice (Pathfinder scales it forward one step, ex: Wizard is d6 and Rogue is d8, so this keeps PF classes in line with 3.5 classes), and consider trading some spells on the Pathfinder spell list (which may or may not make sense based on how you handle the conversion) with spells from the Spell Compendium or somesuch, do that the class has a reasonable level of splat access. Otherwise, it should be easy enough to make a smooth conversion.

[Empedocles]

As for all classes in Pathfinder, I'd look at scaling back the Hit Dice (Pathfinder scales it forward one step, ex: Wizard is d6 and Rogue is d8, so this keeps PF classes in line with 3.5 classes), and consider trading some spells on the Pathfinder spell list (which may or may not make sense based on how you handle the conversion) with spells from the Spell Compendium or somesuch, do that the class has a reasonable level of splat access. Otherwise, it should be easy enough to make a smooth conversion.

Hmmm. What about gunslingers and magus's? They seem like they could potentially pose issues.

[Feralventas]

I'd put Alchemist on T3 next to the Bard, which is pretty much what it is anyway (self-buffs in place of party buffs, more damage/aoe capacity without going into a 'casting PrC, and crafting skills in place of Knowledge (Whatever).)

Summoner I'd put up with T2 along with the Sorcerer and the like. You have a companion to match a Druid's animal companion, and while the spell list only goes up to 6th level, it's not bad on its own, and you gain Summon Monster 1-9 as you progress, keeping up with the other 9th level spellcasters as well. A well-optimized Summoner with the summon-augmenting feats and options in 3.5 is capable of breaking the game, but it takes effort and it won't have a lot of options available to do so, as per Sorcerer or Psion.

Some archetypes are more or less potent than the standard class. The Alchemist clone spec that lets them cheat death a few times might be less utilitarian on a regular basis but allow the player a lot higher risk options with lower actual risk to themselves. Broodmasters are less combative, but can have eyes everywhere, or Synthisist the other way, being more combative at the expense of some of their background casting capacity.

[Feralventas]

Hmmm. What about gunslingers and magus's? They seem like they could potentially pose issues.

The Gunslinger is a Fighter class; there's nothing more game-breaking here than any other Fighter 20 build. Having touch-attacks on a ranged combatant isn't going to ruin things unless someone at the table feels combatants shouldn't be able to do their job.

The Magus works pretty well on its own, but you can pretty easily substitute things into their spell list from the Sorc/Wizard spells of equal spell levels, or from the Duskblade and Hexblade and Warmage lists (PHB2, Complete Warrior, and Complete Arcane.)

[Larkas]

Summoner I'd put up with T2 along with the Sorcerer and the like. You have a companion to match a Druid's animal companion, and while the spell list only goes up to 6th level, it's not bad on its own, and you gain Summon Monster 1-9 as you progress, keeping up with the other 9th level spellcasters as well. A well-optimized Summoner with the summon-augmenting feats and options in 3.5 is capable of breaking the game, but it takes effort and it won't have a lot of options available to do so, as per Sorcerer or Psion.

I wouldn't say that. A Sorcerer can break the game in the same ways a Wizard can, it just can't do all of them at once.

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

.Link.

The Summoner certainly doesn't have as much raw power as any tier 1 class, and is certainly as flexible as many tier 3 classes. I'd put it in tier 3, reaching extremely low tier 2 at most.

[deuxhero]

Hmmm. What about gunslingers and magus's? They seem like they could potentially pose issues.

Gunslinger is a fighter without the support 3.5 Fighter got (tier 5). Mysterious Strangers are a bit better thanks to Social Skills and UMD support if they take Dangerously Curious (tier 4ish).

Magus is solidly tier 3, no "break the game" traits at all, but versatile and able to do its jobs well.

Going by the typical challenge of "get to a city, get inside, find the resistance leader and infiltrate the palace to kill the leader" for ECL 7, Gunslinger has no method to get the city quickly (he can buy a mount, but that is WBLmancery and anyone can do it), he can't really bypass the guards at the gate, even though he has climb as a class skill it's tied tertiary stats at best without Wisdom of the Flesh, and there are better uses for that even if you take it (Mysterious Stranger can talk his way through), can't really locate the resistance leader that well (Even MS has issues with it out of the box, though there is a much better argument for grabing Diplomacy, and thus gather information under PF) and help them kill the tyrant (OK, he can actually do that well, MS may run low on Grit and thus Cha based attacks)

Magus can cast Phantom Steed (or mount at lower levels) to reach the city quickly (though not too quickly), Gaseous Form or Fly over the gate (at higher levels the steed can air walk over the gate). He's stuck relying on his party (which Phantom Steed can't really bring) to find the leader with no social skills, divination or enchantments. He is moderately good at infiltrating the palace (invisible) and pretty handy in the fight against the leader.

Summoners have a decent case for tier 2 with Magic Jar, Create Demiplane and the surprisingly unnerfed in PF Planar Binding series with the magic circles and Dimensional Anchor to use it, plus some save or lose effects.

[Starbuck_II]

Gunslinger is a fighter without the support 3.5 Fighter got.

Magus is solidly tier 3, no "break the game" traits at all, but versatile and able to do its jobs well.

Summoners have a decent case for tier 2 with Magic Jar, Create Demiplane and the surprisingly unnerfed in PF Planar Binding series with the magic circles and Dimensional Anchor to use it, plus some save or lose effects.

Gunslingers without Deadly aim (PF feat, Power attack for ranged) would be a sad, sad panda.

[Larkas]

Gunslingers without Deadly aim (PF feat, Power attack for ranged) would be a sad, sad panda.

Indeed, if you intend to port the Gunslinger, I suggest porting Deadly Aim along with it, even if on the 3.5 game it were to work like 3.5's Power Attack (i.e.: 1 hit to 1 dmg, transfer limited only by BAB, customizable range). Heck, I'd recommend porting it anyways to give archers something solid to spend a feat on.

[Empedocles]

So...

There really aren't any class conversion issues overall between PF and 3.5 (not including full casters in this)? Even w/ a class like the magus?

[Feralventas]

Minimal if any trouble at all. I run my games with a mix of 3.x and PF. I usually prefer to translate 3.5 to PF rather than the other way around, but the easiest conversion I've dealt with is PF for Class Features and Spells, 3.x for skills and combat mechanics.

[CTrees]

Don't forget, Summoners eventually get Gate as an SLA several times per day, with enhanced duration. It's the Truenamer syndrome again, yes, but with a much higher base power level before that boost. Also, the discounted spell levels definitely put them a notch above the casting power of bards or magi (though certainly below the full lists available actual full casters). Regardless, I think high T3 until lvl 19, solid T2 at 19+20.

[Empedocles]

Don't forget, Summoners eventually get Gate as an SLA several times per day, with enhanced duration. It's the Truenamer syndrome again, yes, but with a much higher base power level before that boost. Also, the discounted spell levels definitely put them a notch above the casting power of bards or magi (though certainly below the full lists available actual full casters). Regardless, I think high T3 until lvl 19, solid T2 at 19+20.

The Tier system is more bent towards mid level play. For that reason, the summoners are essentially Tier 3.

[imneuromancer]

Maybe my experience with Summoners and Alchemists is a little weird, but the times I have had players with those character classes, they have dominated the game.

Summoners with their summons + spells gets to be really powerful very quickly. Plus they have a pretty good range of GOD-like battlefield control. This is not to mention the Eidolon, which in itself can be insane.

Alchemists have lots of tricks that make them (literally) beastly in combat, plus they have some neato tricks.

I don't know that I would make them tier 1 because of their lack of versatility (compared to clerics, druids, and wizards), but I would definitely say they are a 1.5 or a 2.

[docnessuno]

I don't know that I would make them tier 1 because of their lack of versatility (compared to clerics, druids, and wizards), but I would definitely say they are a 1.5 or a 2.

You should really re-read the definition of tiers:

Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing.

Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. //...// Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area.

I think both classes fit quite well into the definition of Tier 3.

[Menteith]

Alchemists are sorely limited by Extracts/day, even with their versatility, and they don't have any great ways to get around this. Additionally, depending on their build, they have some pretty glaring weaknesses (Huge, Mindless Undead come to mind as easy ways around Tanglefoot Bomb, Stink Bomb, and Confusion Bomb at the same time), can't teleport (best option is Shadow Walk at level 16), have terrible summoning options, and lack the reality shattering abilities of, say, a Sorcerer or Psion. They're not T2.