Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I agree, on 1. While I don't particularly mind Vancian the Fighter 2/day ability just seems odd. I'd have preferred if it was just a 1/encounter deal.

On 2, Int and Cha I agree. But since Wis is now the direct counter to any spells that can affect your mind I wouldn't put it as a dump.

It seems like Int and Cha could also be targeted by spells. I think you can't really dump any stats because of the way saving throws work now.

I really like how they've given all of the monstrous humanoids their own themes and abilities. Kobolds always keep pets, goblins have ties to the fey realms, orcs poison the land they live on, etc.

Is it just the playtest being bare-boned, or does it seem like this edition of D&D is much more open to houserules? I can definitely see hit points and death/dying being the first thing everyone houserules. If feats affect your class progression more than your class then I can see houseruled feats being easy to write.

I like how all of the Background abilities encourage role-playing when the players aren't in a dungeon.

[navar100]

If spells only target Con, Dex, and Wis, that's just another way of saying Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. It would be interesting cool if that's what magic targets only but warrior shticks target Str, Int, and Cha: Str for physical contest, Int for trickery, and Cha for ego. Whether this works mechanically is for playtest to decide.

[Ziegander]

If spells only target Con, Dex, and Wis, that's just another way of saying Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. It would be interesting cool if that's what magic targets only but warrior shticks target Str, Int, and Cha: Str for physical contest, Int for trickery, and Cha for ego. Whether this works mechanically is for playtest to decide.

That really would not make much sense. Warriors can't target Fortitude, Reflex, or Will? They can only target Muscle, Wits, and Ego? Warriors should be mostly about Muscle, Fortitude, and Reflex, while Mages should be mostly about Will, Wits, and Ego, but both should be capable of targeting all of those things.

Beyond that though, even if spells predominantly attack only Con, Dex, and Wis, there will be spells that attack the other three scores (unless WotC drops the whole notion of having saving throws for each of the six scores, which seems highly unlikely). Since Wizards get to choose which spells they get, there will be little reason to continue to pile up a Wisdom attacks, when you can go for versatility to pick up the "rare" Strength or Intelligence attack (we actually already have an example of a spell with an Intelligence save). Furthermore, simple hazards like the environment and traps will attack ability scores other than Con, Dex, and Wis.

[Scowling Dragon]

If they have equal capabilities then the classes begin to feel samey. How would a fighter target INT?

[EatAtEmrakuls]

If they have equal capabilities then the classes begin to feel samey. How would a fighter target INT?

Taunts, Battle Cries, etc

Imagination is a powerful thing.

More importantly than how badly this stat-defense fiasco makes the whole game, is the general feel that if AC, to hit, etc don't grow very well, and magic items are seriously under emphasized, it makes people who enjoy finding magic items and treasure, and growing and feeling much more powerful, under-focused by the developers.

My group, which spent 4 years on a 1-30 level 4e campaign, would never play this, just because of the feeling, not the mechanics.

[Scowling Dragon]

So we are literally judging how stupid your opponent is by their Int save?

"GET OVER HERE".

"Darn failed my save. Welp, got to run into the pit"

or

"We want to go into there"

"Roll your int saves"

"You pass and realize thats a stupid idea"

Thats not imagination, thats the exact opposite of that.

Also, taunts and battle cries are against charisma.

edit:

Also- Making Magic weapons part of the system is TAKING POWER FROM THE GAMER. It doesn't mean your becoming more powerful. It means that your passable because its built into the system!

If its a separate thing then a +1 sword actually means something as your actually ment to get it.

[EatAtEmrakuls]

So we are literally judging how stupid your opponent is by their Int save?

"GET OVER HERE".

"Darn failed my save. Welp, got to run into the pit"

or

"We want to go into there"

"Roll your int saves"

"You pass and realize thats a stupid idea"

Thats not imagination, thats the exact opposite of that.

Also, taunts and battle cries are against charisma.

So far NOTHING is against charisma, so that's not true.

Int is as important of a mental stat in a battle as any other. Making yourself look open, in order to draw your opponent in and then attack with...*shudder*...the new advantage mechanic is a perfect example of how a Fighter can make the opponent use an Int save to not fall for it.

[Scowling Dragon]

So far NOTHING is against charisma, so that's not true.

My force of personality against yours makes more sense then my force of personality VS how smart you are. Im just saying how it makes sense, not how it is.

Int is as important of a mental stat in a battle as any other. Making yourself look open, in order to draw your opponent in and then attack with...*shudder*...the new advantage mechanic is a perfect example of how a Fighter can make the opponent use an Int save to not fall for it.

Thats based on wisdom. How wise you are to a bluff =P.

Again, you seem to want perfect symmetry with Fighter VS wizard stuff. Again, this edition will never reach the point of symmetry that 4e reached. You might as well give up on this game prematurely.

[Ziegander]

So we are literally judging how stupid your opponent is by their Int save?

Yes? How could that not be what an Intelligence save is measuring? The only other thing an Intelligence save could possibly determine is how fast someone is able to think, rather than their ability to arrive at the correct answer, but that's reaching.

So, yes, when you fake left, but smash right, and your opponent fails to see it coming, he has failed an Intelligence save (or at least he should, but the current system would probably call that a Reflex attack at best, and likely just a normal attack with a +2 bonus to the roll).

[EatAtEmrakuls]

My force of personality against yours makes more sense then my force of personality VS how smart you are. Im just saying how it makes sense, not how it is.



Thats based on wisdom. How wise you are to a bluff =P.

Again, you seem to want perfect symmetry with Fighter VS wizard stuff. Again, this edition will never reach the point of symmetry that 4e reached. You might as well give up on this game prematurely.

That's not a bluff. That's a tactic.

And if it doesn't reach some form of symmetry in offensive options, I will give up on this game prematurely, because it'll be nothing but a collage of 3.5s balance mistakes.

[Scowling Dragon]

And its a tactic based on a bluff. Again, there is no logical way to target Int, and if a attack bluff targets Int you might as well be rolling checks for everything.

And if it attempts to turn it into the same boring "nobody can be unique because we are too lazy to put effort" stuff that 4e was then Im dumping this here and now.

[Starbuck_II]

If spells only target Con, Dex, and Wis, that's just another way of saying Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. It would be interesting cool if that's what magic targets only but warrior shticks target Str, Int, and Cha: Str for physical contest, Int for trickery, and Cha for ego. Whether this works mechanically is for playtest to decide.

Technically, you can do stunts vs other stats. In the improvise section, it mentions it.
Like:
Use a Strength contest to shove the other guy into a pit.
Use a Dexterity contest against an enemy during your movement to fake them out; if you win, you gain Advantage for your attack this turn; if you lose, the enemy gains Advantage on their next attack against you.
Dexterity contest vs. Dexterity or Constitution to throw sand in a guy's eyes, blinding him until he uses an action to clear it out.

Something along those lines.

[Dienekes]

If they have equal capabilities then the classes begin to feel samey. How would a fighter target INT?

Personally I would do it based off a tactician approach. Warlord does X maneuver make an Int check or switch spaces with an ally of the Warlord's choosing. Or Warlord does X maneuver and until the end of the turn if you do not make an Int Save all opponents gain Advantage over you. I'm sure if I tried I could think of some others.

Mind you, I'm using Warlord instead of Fighter, because I'm pretty sure we were told that would be a class and it fits the whole tactic approach I was going for. Personally I think Fighters will be mostly be making Str checks, Dex checks, Con checks, and maybe Wis checks.

As to symmetrical balance, yeah I doubt that'll be happening. Since they've already confirmed they're going with different subsystems for spells as opposed to whatever they end up doing with martial classes. Now that doesn't mean there won't be balance (insert Warblade, Beguiler, and Factotum argument here) it does mean it will be harder to do. Though that's supposedly why they're doing the multi-layered open playtest in the first place.

[Scowling Dragon]

To be honest INT is the only ability score that doesn't make any sense. Its the 6th wheel in this equation.

[Dienekes]

To be honest INT is the only ability score that doesn't make any sense. Its the 6th wheel in this equation.

Really? I think it's Cha. You can be tricked which is naturally an Int check in my mind. While Cha is your force of personality, it always seems to take an active roll in what it does, you force your personality onto others. I really can't think of what would be a Cha check, since Wis has historically taken the position of will power.

[Scowling Dragon]

Let me explain why:

STR: No need for an explanation
Dex: Same here
Con: Same here

Wisdom: If you view it as mental clarity it makes sense. How clear is your mind, and how well you think.

Charisma is force of personality. Some people can have high Charisma and be quiet and timid. It just depends on thier force of personality.

But Int? How does one measure smartness? I already have skills/ Levels to represent how much I know, and Wis for how well you think. So yeah. Int is redundant.

[Draz74]

INT saves could make sense vs. illusions. But other than that ... yeah, tricky to figure out what will make them important.

[Scowling Dragon]

Again: Wisdom Check. Is your mind clear enough to see through the illusions?

Thats what im doing in my homebrew- Getting rid of Intelligence.

Im also getting rid of AC and just using reflex saves. Their exactly the same thing anyway. Arm is DR.

[Crow]

Very first impression while reading the new rules:

The avarage human can deadlift 500-550 lbs.

I'm calling bull.

Going to continue reading now. Not a deal breaker or anything. Just saying.

[Ranting Fool]

Very first impression while reading the new rules:

The avarage human can deadlift 500-550 lbs.

I'm calling bull.

Going to continue reading now. Not a deal breaker or anything. Just saying.

hehe well also a human with 10 str can jump 10 foot forward with a running start.... Now granted that I've not done any tested jumping since I was in school but that seems a tad far for most people I know

[Dienekes]

Again: Wisdom Check. Is your mind clear enough to see through the illusions?

Thats what im doing in my homebrew- Getting rid of Intelligence.

Im also getting rid of AC and just using reflex saves. Their exactly the same thing anyway. Arm is DR.

You could divide Will between Wis and Int. You make Wis your ability to keep control of your mind and Int as the way to puzzle things out.

For example, someone tries to Charm you: That's Wis. Someone tries to trick you: that's Int.

Then it would be divided more: Bluff, Tactics, Illusions would be opposed by Int. Mind Control, Intimidation, and Diplomacy would be opposed by Wis. The problem with this is Wisdom as a stat is generally perception as well, so people would argue that noticing illusions or that someone is lying would be Wisdom. What being wise has to do with perception? I have no idea, but it's been like that for as long as I've been playing. Mind you, you could probably make the same argument for using Int for Wis checks. Wouldn't I be smart enough to realize if the guy was actually a threat or not? Wouldn't I be smart enough to not be suckered into a raw deal? And so on.

Really when you get to the mental stats it's all a bit fuzzy to me as why anything but the most basic stuff is where it is. Int is if you're knowledgeable, so the Knowledge skills definitely go there. Cha is force of personality so if you try to force your personality on someone else you use that, so bluff, diplomacy uses Cha makes sense. Wis is, well, I don't quite know what wisdom actually is in the real world, it seems that fuzzy part of your mind that might not be able to do quadratic equations, but can just tell you that 2+2 equals 4 when they see it. The dictionary apparently says wisdom is having experience (we have exp points for that), knowledge (but isn't that already pretty definitively covered by Int?), and having good judgment. Well, players never have good judgment so that's out. But if the game says your ability to resist someone's affect on your personality and mind, is wisdom, sure, why not, I'll believe you.

[Scowling Dragon]

I say wisdom is mental clarity. How organized your mind is and how easy it is for you to learn new things.

[noparlpf]

Very first impression while reading the new rules:

The avarage human can deadlift 500-550 lbs.

I'm calling bull.

Going to continue reading now. Not a deal breaker or anything. Just saying.

Yeah, I've frequently had issues with the physical skills and the like in D&D. It's almost like they're written by sedentary geeks.

[Dienekes]

I say wisdom is mental clarity.

Ok, in a game, that makes sense mental clarity resists mental spells. I have no idea what that would mean in real life though. Maybe how little your emotions affect your judgment? How would you even get players to roleplay that?

How organized your mind is and how easy it is for you to learn new things.

The second one is I believe in the definition of Intelligence, so no there. The first one maybe, though I don't know what that would be in game terms. You can't test mind organization, can you? At least not in any way to make a game mechanic out of it.

[RedWarlock]

I say wisdom is mental clarity. How organized your mind is and how easy it is for you to learn new things.

But that's not what it is at all. Be careful about forcing your houserule justifications on the base game. Intelligence is learning, that's why it governs skill points in 3e, because you're more able to learn those skills. Wisdom I see as more like your sanity and focus, whereas Intelligence is rationality/logic and learning. That's why monks and divines have high wisdom, because they're more focused, more aware of the world around them, such as with the Monk's Nirvana-esque enlightenment.

Illusions could be done with either Intelligence saves OR Wisdom saves, either or both. Hight-Int characters would be able to figure out from details that don't match up rationally, whereas high-Wis characters would have the clarity you describe to resist the magic and perceive the illusion's falsehood.

[some guy]

hehe well also a human with 10 str can jump 10 foot forward with a running start.... Now granted that I've not done any tested jumping since I was in school but that seems a tad far for most people I know

10 feet is very is easy to do with a running start, maybe not if you work behind a computer for a living, but if you earn your gold by *venturing forth in deep pits of despair I would reckon you could easily do that..


*You must gather your party before

[Crow]

Well, it says walk 10 ft then make a 10 foot jump. But whatever, close enough. I can nearly get 10 from standing, so pretty much anyone should get 10 running.

[noparlpf]

Well, it says walk 10 ft then make a 10 foot jump. But whatever, close enough. I can nearly get 10 from standing, so pretty much anyone should get 10 running.

Yeah, I think any reasonably fit adult human ought to manage a ten-foot long jump with a running start. Especially during combat with adrenaline and whatnot.

[Ranting Fool]

Well, it says walk 10 ft then make a 10 foot jump. But whatever, close enough. I can nearly get 10 from standing, so pretty much anyone should get 10 running.

See now I just want to messure out and mark down how far I can jump sadly if I tried that right now i'd hit a wall rather quickly so it's more of a Park type activity

World record is a bit over 29ft

[navar100]

I just want to say for the record now that any further opinions I may have in this thread are based on what I'm reading here and commenting on that, what I like, don't like, etc. I am not doing the playtest since my group is enmeshed with 3.P, and I have not read the 5E material.