OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread

[Smolder]

Isn't it at all possible that what Roy did in the arena was a classic rope-a-dope?

Let the big guy wear himself out (or use up his berserk) and then take him down easily. It's the smart move, therefore it's one that Roy would know to employ and Thog would not comprehend (since he equates strength with victory).

[One Skunk Todd]

For no reason that I can figure out, I suddenly find myself wondering if there's any chance that Tarquin and Xykon know each other.

[Masamichi]

I believe you're confused.

What Rich has said is: He isn't interested in binding himself to the system.

What he did NOT say is that narrative is more important than the idea of the strip occurring within the 3.5 ruleset. In fact, I would argue that the strip's representation of the characters being aware of the ruleset is the narrative.

Okay, I wasn't referring to a forum post, but a news post from several years ago, which I found:

5/20/2008

[...] There are many reasons for this, not the least of which is that the purpose of the comic has shifted away from its original goal of simply poking fun at a game to an actual story, and it is that story on which I would like to focus.

And later:

My job as an author is not to reflect the current trends, but to deliver the most entertaining story, and I feel I can best do that by continuing on as I have been.

Here's a link to the entire thing here (some scrolling required) just in case someone thinks I'm cherry-picking lines out of context: http://www.giantitp.com/index2.html

Yes, he does say he's poking fun at the system where he can, but he also says that entertaining story trumps mechanics, which is what I held in mind when reading the strip. Perhaps the confusion is that I equate entertaining story to narrative?

In any case, that's what I was referring to; if his stance has changed since then, well, that's news to me. Sorry for the confusion.

[Math_Mage]

Yes, he does say he's poking fun at the system where he can, but he also says that entertaining story trumps mechanics, which is what I held in mind when reading the strip. Perhaps the confusion is that I equate entertaining story to narrative?

In any case, that's what I was referring to; if his stance has changed since then, well, that's news to me. Sorry for the confusion.

No, the error you make here is one that many, MANY people have made: equating rules GAGS with the rules themselves.

OotS has long since moved away from a gag-a-day strip to a story-focused strip; one result of this is that when 4e came out, and when 5e started being developed, Rich didn't bother bringing the comic forward because all the time spent introducing the new rules (and poking fun at them) would undermine the narrative flow. But the story remains consistent with the 3.5 ruleset, with the few exceptions being noted by the author in forum posts (Tsukiko has too few barred schools, for example).

As such, the rules will continue to exert influence on the plot, both implicitly (as when Roy used Thog's Dungeoncrasher ACF against him in the final scene AND tried to run out the clock on his rage) and explicitly (as with Know(Architecture & Engineering)). One of the factors that makes the Roy vs. Thog fight and the V vs. Z fight interesting is that each represents the triumph of clever fighting over build optimization, which is a D&D perspective through and through. And one reason I respect the Giant so much is that he's able to make that perspective visible to non-D&D players through dialogue, without boring and clunky explanations.

[zimmerwald1915]

And one reason I respect the Giant so much is that he's able to make that perspective visible to non-D&D players through dialogue, without boring and clunky explanations.

Except when a boring and clunky explanation is totally within character, such as V's to Z.

[ulgulanoth]

Well Xylon looked like Tarquin when he was alive... (that probably doesn't say much for a stick figure comic...)

I hope Xylon and Tarquin join forces (with Tarquin betraying Neil) that would be fun, imagine the two together!

[Smolder]

Possible outcomes of Tarquin and Xykon recognizing eachother:

1) Old friends.
"Hey, Xykon, old friend..."
"I don't remember you. Meteor Swarm."

2) Old enemies.
"Oh no, it's my old adversary!"
"I don't remember you, but if you insist, Meteor Swarm"

3) They don't recognize each other
"Hey, who's that guy?"
"Allow me to introduce myself. Meteor Swarm."

[Gift Jeraff]

Since Tarquin is Roy's opposite, that must mean Xykon actually knows every single detail about him, despite having never met him.

And then he Meteor Swarms him.

[FujinAkari]

No, the error you make here is one that many, MANY people have made: equating rules GAGS with the rules themselves.

Absolutely.

The D&D level up system is the exact same for Int 25 and Int 3 characters, excepting that Int 25 characters get extra skill points, and I think this is one of the things being parodied in the fight.

Thog, despite being a drooling idiot, is still every bit as knowledgeable about character attribute placement and combat effectiveness as Roy is since that is how D&D works. When a low int character levels up, they choose the feat they want. There is no rule "Pick an extra feat for every three points of int you are away from 18 and then randomly deturmine which feat yuo get, since your character isn't smart enough to make the best decision."

You want Roy to outwit Thog because Thog is dumber than Roy, and you want this because you are expecting a standard, real-world narrative. OOTS is based in a game-world, and so there are times (like this) where ability scores manifest themselves in unusual ways :)

[Kalrany]

Since Tarquin is Roy's opposite, that must mean Xykon actually knows every single detail about him, despite having never met him.

And then he Meteor Swarms him.

... That WOULD be funny. Nice idea, hope we get to see it.

Also, was re-reading SoD a couple of days ago and noticed that

Spoiler

Show

The evil dungeon master looking for an assistant a-la The Apprentice style had what looked to be the same helmet that Tarquin wears now.

Coincidence?

I think not!....

....Ah. Yah, probably, but still...

[Smolder]

Since Tarquin is Roy's opposite, that must mean Xykon actually knows every single detail about him, despite having never met him.

And then he Meteor Swarms him.

A really good point. Tarquin is Roy's opposite, which helps to point out why Roy keeps getting beaten to a pulp. Tarquin is highly defensive, whereas Roy charges in with no helmet and only a two-hander (no shield, harder to parry). Against most enemies with good dexterity and faster attack speed, he's guaranteed to take a few injuries before landing his big strike. That's basically how he's handled every fight so far.

That's one thing that always bothered me about the Order. Their tank is basically a DPS warrior while the only person with heavy armor and a shield is standing back casting spells. And people wonder why they have so much trouble.

Switch Durkon to tank and self-heal, and Roy to melee DPS like Belkar. When a battle begins, Durkon opens by growing to giant size and smashing the enemies with his hammer, which causes them to either die, flee, or attack him. NOW Roy can charge in and cleave them all while their backs are turned, doing maximum damage with minimum risk.

Tarquin has a great tank build for leading a small adventuring group. He dodges, counters, blocks and regenerates. A good tank should have enough damage mitigation that he doesn't need continuous healing. Roy does fine because he's got a very deep HP pool and is not afraid to take damage.

So what will Tarquin's defense against Meteor Swarm (and other hostile spells) be?

[WindStruck]

So what will Tarquin's defense against Meteor Swarm (and other hostile spells) be?

He will block each meteor by deflecting them all and reflect them back at Xykon via Reflect Arrows feat. With his other magical doodad, he will simultaneously lower Xykon's defenses to his own meteor swarm. Then Tarquin will get his counter and trip Xykon, and then crush Xykon's skull beneath his steel boot. Because Xykon has magic items that protect from everything but awesomeness.

[Smolder]

He will block each meteor by deflecting them all and reflect them back at Xykon via Reflect Arrows feat. With his other magical doodad, he will simultaneously lower Xykon's defenses to his own meteor swarm. Then Tarquin will get his counter and trip Xykon, and then crush Xykon's skull beneath his steel boot. Because Xykon has magic items that protect from everything but awesomeness.

Lol. You're probably right. Tarquin kills Xykon. But then Xykon reforms next to his phylactery, which is only a few steps away in RC's pocket.

[ulgulanoth]

btw which god does the lizard priest follow? not the same one as red eye right?

[Chessgeek]

btw which god does the lizard priest follow? not the same one as red eye right?

If by red eye you mean Redcloak, then no. Redcloak worships the Dark One, while Malack worships Nergal, the lion-headed god of Death and Destruction (comic 737)

[Gift Jeraff]

Nah, Malack (the lizard priest) worships Nergal, god of Death and Destruction in the Western pantheon. Redcloak worships the Dark One, the only god of the goblinoid pantheon.

[Emperordaniel]

Possible outcomes of Tarquin and Xykon recognizing eachother:

1) Old friends.
"Hey, Xykon, old friend..."
"I don't remember you. Meteor Swarm."

2) Old enemies.
"Oh no, it's my old adversary!"
"I don't remember you, but if you insist, Meteor Swarm"

3) They don't recognize each other
"Hey, who's that guy?"
"Allow me to introduce myself. Meteor Swarm."

Thanks for making my evening.

Lol. You're probably right. Tarquin kills Xykon. But then Xykon reforms next to his phylactery, which is only a few steps away in RC's pocket.

...and then Redcloack finds himself in big trouble.

btw which god does the lizard priest follow? not the same one as red eye right?

[Panel 5]

Nergal, Lion-Headed God of Death and Destruction.

[sgtpimenta]

You want Roy to outwit Thog because Thog is dumber than Roy, and you want this because you are expecting a standard, real-world narrative. OOTS is based in a game-world, and so there are times (like this) where ability scores manifest themselves in unusual ways :)

Well... OotS is still a narrative, and the characters (especially Elan and family) are aware about genre conventions and cliches.

While I disagree on how Masamichi feels about Roy’s victory over Thog in the arena, I didn’t like, myself, the way Thog’s general stupidity was portrayed in that specific battle. I mean, he was still a drooling idiot who couldn’t use a second-person pronoun, but he was able to recognize and treasure “non-traditional panel layout” featured in their first adventure. That’s a very specific type of dumb.

[Math_Mage]

Well... OotS is still a narrative, and the characters (especially Elan and family) are aware about genre conventions and cliches.

While I disagree on how Masamichi feels about Roy’s victory over Thog in the arena, I didn’t like, myself, the way Thog’s general stupidity was portrayed in that specific battle. I mean, he was still a drooling idiot who couldn’t use a second-person pronoun, but he was able to recognize and treasure “non-traditional panel layout” featured in their first adventure. That’s a very specific type of dumb.

Yes, the comic type. Think Calvin & Hobbes, where such incongruities were a regular occurrence.

I think the "dumb fighter talk smart" thing is Rich playing for laughs; the dumb strong fighter is a cliche that requires no support from the gaming rules (but gets it anyway); but that the game rules are still an important part of that fight.

[One Skunk Todd]

... That WOULD be funny. Nice idea, hope we get to see it.

Also, was re-reading SoD a couple of days ago and noticed that

Spoiler

Show

The evil dungeon master looking for an assistant a-la The Apprentice style had what looked to be the same helmet that Tarquin wears now.

Coincidence?

I think not!....

....Ah. Yah, probably, but still...

This is exactly what I was wondering about. Not the helmet specifically, just whether they might have run into each other when they were younger and up and coming.

[Gift Jeraff]

This is exactly what I was wondering about. Not the helmet specifically, just whether they might have run into each other when they were younger and up and coming.

No way they could have been up and coming at the same time--Xykon was already 18th level or higher ~28 years ago (Energy Drain vs. Lirian), whereas Tarquin can't be much older than early to mid-forties.

I suppose he may have hired Tarquin's party as one-time mercenaries at some point, as he did with the Linear Guild.

[Knaight]

Yes, the comic type. Think Calvin & Hobbes, where such incongruities were a regular occurrence.

I think the "dumb fighter talk smart" thing is Rich playing for laughs; the dumb strong fighter is a cliche that requires no support from the gaming rules (but gets it anyway); but that the game rules are still an important part of that fight.

However, Thog is just stupid. Calvin is quite smart, quite creative, and utterly lacking in academic capabilities because he just doesn't care. The two aren't really comparable.

[Dracos]

Though I certainly agree that recently it does seem like any genuine victory of the Order, or act of intelligence is undermined very quickly. The only complete exception to this since they reached the supposed location of Girards Gate (desert one) is V against ZZ'Dritt. That was an excellent piece of development and growth for the little elf and a true (and foreshadowed) triumph of smarts over power.

*waves as a new forumer* You know, I both agree and disagree on that.

V totally did some interesting things and showed a lot of growth in that battle. The restrained temper, the willingness to think outside the box in face of a horribly obnoxious villain.

It's a shame V lost though.

I know, I know, we paint it as V won, but ZZ'dritt got to toss V through a plane shift as a finisher. Sure, V was thrown into comedy realm and was humiliated despite her emotional growth, but survived while ZZ'dritt was knocked out...

But any fight that lands you sent to another plane of existence is not one you won. If ZZ'dritt had decided to send V to hell, V would've still been sent and not been able to do anything about it. If ZZ'dritt had sent him to the plane of fire, V would've been incinerated. It's only villian taking the gag option that at all leaves that as V's 'victory'.

Which is a shame, as V did a really cool choice and brainstorm there and narratively deserved better than to lose that fight at the last moment by being planeshifted away. Surviving because ZZ'dritt's last minute pinch 'you lose' move tossed V somewhere lame instead of sending the exhausted wizard somewhere dangerous is kind of demeaning and half implies that ZZ'dritt wasn't really trying to kill V to begin with.

[Math_Mage]

However, Thog is just stupid. Calvin is quite smart, quite creative, and utterly lacking in academic capabilities because he just doesn't care. The two aren't really comparable.

I would argue that there are a number of C&H strips where mere boredom isn't nearly enough of an explanation--and also that C&H is perfectly comfortable with that sort of paradox. I'm just as comfortable with such comically contradictory behavior coming from an idiot half-orc as from a precocious 6-year-old.

[Dracos]

Isn't it at all possible that what Roy did in the arena was a classic rope-a-dope?

Let the big guy wear himself out (or use up his berserk) and then take him down easily. It's the smart move, therefore it's one that Roy would know to employ and Thog would not comprehend (since he equates strength with victory).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0796.html I think this comic disputes the 'wear the guy out'.

Before the cunning turnaround, the potion, and seeing the strategy...Roy gave up. His moves from there are come across as reasonable desperation before determining another plan.

Heck, it wouldn't really be unfair to say that Thog won round 1, and until Roy got healing potion, he didn't have a chance. But Roy did definitely win round 2.

[FujinAkari]

But any fight that lands you sent to another plane of existence is not one you won. If ZZ'dritt had decided to send V to hell, V would've still been sent and not been able to do anything about it.

V absolutely had the means to get back, he just had to wait a day to rememorize.

This is like saying if you tackle me while I pull a knife, and I stab you in the stomach but am sent reeling into another room, that I somehow lost the fight since I now have to walk back into the frist room to find you face down on the floor...

[Peelee]

V absolutely had the means to get back, he just had to wait a day to rememorize.

This is like saying if you tackle me while I pull a knife, and I stab you in the stomach but am sent reeling into another room, that I somehow lost the fight since I now have to walk back into the frist room to find you face down on the floor...

Wouldn't plane shift have been banned (like teleportation) for V, as it's conjuration? Which would explain why Durkon had to drag his butt to the demiplane himself to find him?

Not that I'm trying to undermine your point at it's heart; more like in your analogy, the door closed after you were knocked back, locked, and your friend a few rooms over had the key and heard the door lock.

[Mr. Pants]

Stupid "Nope!" mask now we still won't be able to figure out his identity!

[Math_Mage]

V absolutely had the means to get back, he just had to wait a day to rememorize.

This is like saying if you tackle me while I pull a knife, and I stab you in the stomach but am sent reeling into another room, that I somehow lost the fight since I now have to walk back into the frist room to find you face down on the floor...

If you end up on the Negative Energy Plane, you won't get a chance prep a new day's spells. That, and V doesn't know any teleportation anyway (though as we saw, Durkon can manage that for her).

[FujinAkari]

Wouldn't plane shift have been banned (like teleportation) for V, as it's conjuration? Which would explain why Durkon had to drag his butt to the demiplane himself to find him?

If you end up on the Negative Energy Plane, you won't get a chance prep a new day's spells. That, and V doesn't know any teleportation anyway (though as we saw, Durkon can manage that for her).

Teleport, no.

Dismissal. yes. All V has to do is cast it on himself and there is an 80% chance he is sent directly back to the Prime Material. If not? Cast it again. He has a lot of 5th level spell slots by this point.