OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread

[sims796]

Teleport, no.

Dismissal. yes. All V has to do is cast it on himself and there is an 80% chance he is sent directly back to the Prime Material. If not? Cast it again. He has a lot of 5th level spell slots by this point.

With V's luck, that would probably fail every time, ending him to the Plane of Extremely Painful Torture.

[Grail]

If you end up on the Negative Energy Plane, you won't get a chance prep a new day's spells. That, and V doesn't know any teleportation anyway (though as we saw, Durkon can manage that for her).

True, though I've always considered sending people to the Positive Energy Plane more fun if you're evil because:

a) At first the trapped person thinks it's all ok, because they're healing
b) If someone makes their knowledge: planes check, they know they've got to inflict self-harm constantly to survive.
c) Exploding an enemy is always more satisfying than merely having them enervate to death.
d) One spell or spell-effect will protect you from the negative energy for a good period of time, leaving you free to try and escape.

[Masamichi]

{{Scrubbed}}

[nerd4life123]

See "He leads with the other foot."
Look back through.
He really does.
Holy crap! Giant, you're a genius!

[rgrekejin]

...if it comforts you to believe that, sure.

I belong in that vast and 'obviously mistaken' majority that take what he said at face value, it seems. Too bad I don't qualify to be in the narrow elite that understands that what he said isn't what he meant....

Odd. You wouldn't think that the person who has spent all thread arguing for a minority interpretation of the Roy/Thog fight would consider an appeal to majority opinion logically valid.

[Hydra Druid]

I am fairly sure I saw Cobra Commander pull the same trick on Duke from G.I. Joe once back in the late 80s or early 90s.
Duke pulls off Cobra Commander's helmet, and there is a cloth mask underneath, then I think he just wore the cloth mask hood for the next season.
However I could be wrong. But I am as sure as I can be that was the first time I saw this trick done.

[FujinAkari]

...if it comforts you to believe that, sure.

I belong in that vast and 'obviously mistaken' majority that take what he said at face value, it seems. Too bad I don't qualify to be in the narrow elite that understands that what he said isn't what he meant....

...

Are you honestly arguing that Rich doesn't attempt to write the story to adhere to the ruleset?

Really?

REALLY?

Rich has been very clear on this point. While he is more interested in telling a story than ensuring that every moment of the story obeys the rules he nonetheless does continue to ground the story within the ruleset. Generally speaking, every time the strip deviates from the rules is due to author error rather than intentionally not -caring- about the rules.

I would also ask that you deal with our arguments instead of dismissing and deriding us as individuals. You are starting to toe the line where linking becomes appropriate.

[Masamichi]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Dracos]

With V's luck, that would probably fail every time, ending him to the Plane of Extremely Painful Torture.

Well, assuming V had it memorized.

And wasn't just thrown into any of the many planes where simply arriving unprepared is dangerous and arriving tired from battle can easily be fatal.

"Hey look water plane, I should..*Gurgle gurgle gurgle, wish I had breath water cast 5 minutes ago*"

"Fire plane. Agh, the magma. Or the demons."

"Hell. And any varient: Wish I hadn't just spent a pitched combat against an equal level character casting spell after spell at him."

The thing is a portal is not a door. Even in the longshot that V was prepped that day to be banished to another plane of existence (Some foresight for the offensive minded V), being tossed randomly to a different plane is pretty dangerous on its own grounds, speaking strictly by the book.

[Laroque]

I need to point out that you completely ignored the second part of the quote that you yourself quoted. He intends to continue on has he has been.

You also ignored that that news post was specifically in response to whether he would be updating the system of the story. For him to say that updating would interfere with the narrative implies that maintaining the current system is important to the narrative.

You also completely ignored Math_Mage's response in lieu of making a snide remark. And I really don't see anything that Math_Mage or FujinAkari have said that are inconsistent with The Giant's own words.

It seems that you're saying that the rule-set is only tangential to the story and is only a loose framework. FujinAkari and Math_Mage are saying that the rule-set basically form the basic framework of the world, and that the Giant only deviates from the ruleset if it either gets in the way of the narrative or he flubs.

Based on all the quotes FujinAkari as shown you, as well as your own quotes, the Giant has made it clear the the 3.5 rules are still in effect, still matter, but he's willing to bend the rules if it serves a purpose (or he makes a mistake).

I think what quote you're hung up on is when he said that he doesn't want to be "bound by the rules." But I think you're putting a much stronger emphasis on that one phrase than the Giant implied or intended.

[GrumpyEye]

I enjoyed this comic a lot until Roy pulled off Tarquin helmet. Generally I find Rich's writing and plot devices pretty clever and he has good story telling sense, but Tarquin wearing a hood for 2 days straight that has "nope" written on it? Too convoluted, it strikes me as trying too hard to make Tarq come off as "IM SO CLEVER" but it come out the opposite to me a badass going for weak lolz. I think even just wearing the hood would have been ok, but he is wearing a hood that says "nope"...

I swear Malak isn't much of a friend if he didn't have the sense to tell Tarq how stupid that looks.

[jere7my]

No, I never said that. I said 'storytelling trumps system'.

See? I told you people would paraphrase you badly. Didn't expect it to be you.

What you said was much more restrictive than "storytelling trumps system." You said "I'm almost positive that it was mentioned that the narrative was more important than the idea of this being bound to a system, other than the context of a party, questing, and other assorted tropes in gaming as the strip progressed. I don't have a reference on hand, but I'll admit, if this is strongly bound to the system still, then I have overlooked that in favor of trying to see things from a narrative/storytelling standpoint." (Emphasis mine.)

The story is clearly "strongly bound to the system," in a much deeper way than "the context of a party, questing, and other assorted tropes". While it is true that Rich doesn't let specific rules get in the way of telling a good story, that does not mean that the bones of the story are anything other than the 3.5 ruleset.

[Math_Mage]

I'm not certain whether V's scrollcasting of Dismissal means he should be given that spell, since he hasn't necessarily memorized it...but that's a neat trick, FujinAkari, so thanks for sharing.

...if it comforts you to believe that, sure.

I belong in that vast and 'obviously mistaken' majority that take what he said at face value, it seems. Too bad I don't qualify to be in the narrow elite that understands that what he said isn't what he meant....

Oh, FFS.

If you want to take what he said at face value and be rudely dismissive of anything I have to say about it, then UNDERSTAND what he said first.

There are many reasons for this, not the least of which is that the purpose of the comic has shifted away from its original goal of simply poking fun at a game to an actual story, and it is that story on which I would like to focus.

This is exactly what I said: Rich shifting from rules gags ("poking fun at a game") to narrative ("an actual story").

My job as an author is not to reflect the current trends, but to deliver the most entertaining story, and I feel I can best do that by continuing on as I have been.

This is exactly what I said: Rich deciding not to "reflect the current trends" by updating to 4th edition because telling the story is more important.

So no, I did not say what I said because "it comforts me to believe that." I said it because THAT IS WHAT HE SAID, and it is NOT what you said.

Now, this is an entirely separate issue from why Rich allowed Thog to know something about mechanics and use big words despite having a low Int score (and likely low scores in other mental stats as well) during the arena fight. That is, fundamentally, because Thog's character is only good for brute force and jokes. If you force Thog to only communicate in monosyllables because of his low intelligence, then he's just brute force, and his value as a character is gone.

If you read the strip, you notice that every other character in the strip makes jokes about the rules, regardless of their widely varying Int scores. So why leave Thog out?

[FujinAkari]

I'm not certain whether V's scrollcasting of Dismissal means he should be given that spell, since he hasn't necessarily memorized it...but that's a neat trick, FujinAkari, so thanks for sharing.

I would be amazed if V would buy a scroll of something and -not- learn it. But even if not, he unquestionably has Banishment, and that one doesn't even have a 20% chance to send to the wrong plane.

[Omergideon]

So if V casts banishment he is likely to be able to end up back home without trouble?

Thus Zz mildly inconvenienced V as his "victory" in the fight?

I still put this in the win column for V, even if the portalling did undercut the triumph somewhat.

[Masamichi]

What you said was much more restrictive than "storytelling trumps system." You said "I'm almost positive that it was mentioned that the narrative was more important than the idea of this being bound to a system, other than the context of a party, questing, and other assorted tropes in gaming as the strip progressed. I don't have a reference on hand, but I'll admit, if this is strongly bound to the system still, then I have overlooked that in favor of trying to see things from a narrative/storytelling standpoint." (Emphasis mine.)

That is an analysis of my (not perfectly accurate) recall of the news post. I clarified my understanding of his message later, after checking the source in a post you seem to have overlooked:

Yes, he does say he's poking fun at the system where he can, but he also says that entertaining story trumps mechanics, which is what I held in mind when reading the strip. Perhaps the confusion is that I equate entertaining story to narrative?

The story is clearly "strongly bound to the system," in a much deeper way than "the context of a party, questing, and other assorted tropes". While it is true that Rich doesn't let specific rules get in the way of telling a good story, that does not mean that the bones of the story are anything other than the 3.5 ruleset.

So we agree my memory wasn't perfect. I'm very glad I mentioned it might not have been entirely accurate when I first mentioned it (as you've conveniently quoted for me above), since it clearly wasn't.

I'm sorry for your confusion there; I'll remember to not bother disclaiming I don't know if I have something perfectly researched, and instead simply do such research before posting in the future. That's probably the superior practice, if it will help avoid misunderstandings like this moving forward.

Regardless. To your point, how does that relate to the following?

There are many reasons for this, not the least of which is that the purpose of the comic has shifted away from its original goal of simply poking fun at a game to an actual story, and it is that story on which I would like to focus.

Emphasis mine. This seems to counter your argument. Is there a misunderstanding here?

Or.... Could it be....

Perhaps I merely undervalue the significance of the (somewhat unclear, given: "If it really bothers anyone, simply imagine that the OOTS world follows someone’s homebrewed hybridization of 3.5 and 4th Editions, using bits and pieces from whichever ruleset they think works better.") system in favor of focusing on the narrative? That's what I came into the thread to discuss, and it remains the part most important to me. I don't think I've been unclear, but if you maintain that the system does have very significant value (which I must have mislead myself to believe wasn't true, given: "Ultimately, as I alluded to in my first paragraph, many (maybe even most) of my readers are not actively involved in playing the current D&D game. Many were players of older editions in their youth who simply enjoy following a story that reminds them of their own past experiences. Others have no interest in roleplaying at all, and just like reading a comedic fantasy comic."), then this could explain why I'm running into such severe dissonance on the issue.

So ... am I correct in understanding that the suggested analysis here is that I have previously failed to recognize how important the system is, and the narrative is that the heroes are losing because their characters are mechanically inferior to their foes? The narrative will overstep this when required, but not until that point?

Actually ... in that light ... I can see how this does neatly align with my previous remarks that it feels like the heroes lose until the plot says they can win; they fail because they're mechanically inadequate, and the author must use fiat to overcome their deficiencies when a party wipe would occur, or otherwise soften logically killing blows (ie., demi-plane of 'ranch dressing' instead of something more dangerous, such as simply, 'fire' or the earlier suggested 'negative energy').

This is ... a bit to think about. If this is what's going on, then I'll need a bit of time to accommodate the paradigm shift from my 'the story is the important part; the system jokes are a bonus' viewpoint I got from that post when I read it initially.

(If only there were more text sizes to allow me to suggest greater emphasis/clarity without coming across as "shouting". Better to err with what I have, one supposes. Colors perhaps? No, that would just get out of hand; it'll have to do as-is.)

Edit( missed this one earlier):

Omergideon: I think the issue was more that Z's spell could have killed V if the target plane had been better chosen, which makes it difficult to consider it a 'win' for V except by luck/contrivance.

If it had been a plane where V could easily be killed, there would have been little about V winning; he'd be dead. It's not like Z's final cast was an instant death spell and V made his save; in his 'defeat' Z sent V elsewhere and the tone of 'plane of humiliation' instead of 'plane of effective combat choice' is what ultimately makes it even possible for V to have been 'victorious'.

I suppose it can be considered to be only mildly undercutting if one doesn't take into account the better options Z had at his disposal and passed on ... or maybe if (for some strange reason) Z only has the ability to banish people to annoying and largely harmless 'food-based' planes. There's a certain amount of feasibility to that.

[Omergideon]

I suppose it can be considered to be only mildly undercutting if one doesn't take into account the better options Z had at his disposal and passed on ... or maybe if (for some strange reason) Z only has the ability to banish people to annoying and largely harmless 'food-based' planes. There's a certain amount of feasibility to that.

Though it was Quarr who suggested and provided the location for the plane shift, not ZZ himself. This could lead to 2 things. First, perhaps alone ZZ is incapable of casting such spells and needed help to do so. Secondly, this is merely a case of the author saving V from something that could logically kill him.

The involvement of the little imp certainly makes it seem to me that a real in universe force was the one doing the saving as it makes the choice on from characters clearly set up as manipulating things behind the scenes. Should we assume or believe that the portal ability came directly from Quarr then.....I dunno the scene becomes less about undercutting V's moment of triumph and more about foreshadowing the protection of the IFCC for V. The changed focus means I forgive this one.

That being said if ZZ is normally able to cast the spell (i.e. it was not simply pulled out of thin air) and would have been able to without Quarr being there I can see why it is irkful indeed.

[factotum]

I would be amazed if V would buy a scroll of something and -not- learn it. But even if not, he unquestionably has Banishment, and that one doesn't even have a 20% chance to send to the wrong plane.

This may be true, but whereabouts on the Stickworld plane would V end up if he Banished himself? Neither Dismissal nor Banishment specify that, and with the distinct lack of teleport ability among the Order, it would actually put them in a *worse* position if he ended up thousands of miles away from them. Better to get Durkon to use Plane Shift, which at least is moderately targetable!

[Smolder]

Though it was Quarr who suggested and provided the location for the plane shift, not ZZ himself. This could lead to 2 things. First, perhaps alone ZZ is incapable of casting such spells and needed help to do so. Secondly, this is merely a case of the author saving V from something that could logically kill him.

The involvement of the little imp certainly makes it seem to me that a real in universe force was the one doing the saving as it makes the choice on from characters clearly set up as manipulating things behind the scenes. Should we assume or believe that the portal ability came directly from Quarr then.....I dunno the scene becomes less about undercutting V's moment of triumph and more about foreshadowing the protection of the IFCC for V. The changed focus means I forgive this one.

Z may not have even known that the spell would not send V where he thought it would. We will find out for sure when Z discovers that V is actually in the ziggurat.

Honestly, the Z vs. V fight was just as lopsided as Roy vs. thog. An opponent with a build they think is superior forces their opponent to do some serious outside-the-box thinking to turn the fight around.

I think what everyone here is saying is that #852 is not as satisfying as #851, which ended on an up beat for the team as even Tarquin takes some licks. However, as I've pointed out before in this thread, had Roy not wasted time trying to remove the helmet, he would not have been struck by Tarquin.

[Kish]

If it had been a plane where V could easily be killed, there would have been little about V winning; he'd be dead. It's not like Z's final cast was an instant death spell and V made his save; in his 'defeat' Z sent V elsewhere and the tone of 'plane of humiliation' instead of 'plane of effective combat choice' is what ultimately makes it even possible for V to have been 'victorious'.

It wasn't about "plane of humiliation." Zz'dtri meant to send Vaarsuvius to the Demiplane of Extremely Painful Torture. He was sabotaged by Qarr.

"The portal ability" didn't come directly from Qarr, since Plane Shift is a basic wizard/sorcerer spell, but Vaarsuvius wound up on a harmless plane because Qarr, and the IFCC, didn't want him/her dead. Yes, Zz'dtri could have won if he had picked a lethal plane where he didn't get the coordinates from Qarr, but then, Zz'dtri was really very lucky for Vaarsuvius to fail a Will save.

[Omergideon]

Strip 803. ZZ thinks it is the demiplane of extremely painful torutre. Quarr provided the co-ordinates.

So clearly Zz is being played somewhat in this by the IFCC. I think.

Edit: Ninja'd. Also, I do really think Qarr is playing in the long game here.

[Dracos]

Hmm.

I forgot Qarr's meddling there. Still, having an imp's trickery be the only thing that saved V from a crushing last minute defeat still undercuts a 'V won' narrative. It makes V unable to finish off the foe and leaves them both at full strength in hardily a day's time.

Roy and the Order overall are the only wins in encounter. Oh, V beat the kobold too. That's true.

Roy beat Thog.
Belkar on a reread doesn't seem to have encountered anyone but his cat?
V beat the kobold (Mind control)
Z at least got a draw and I think a win on V. Imp trechery to keep V alive aside.
Z stoned haley, stayed out of the whole fight.
Sabine/Nale beat Elan into patheticness.
Sabine/Nale beat Durkon into patheticness.
Malack beat both Sabine and Nale, practically by himself.

Order wins as Nale, Sabine, Z, Kobold, and Nale are out of the picture.

For 1 day/eleven comics before being entirely returned to full strength, and improved upon by getting both Malack and Tarquinn added to their team.

Edit:
Interventions:
Old dude's intervention with healing potion saves Roy.
Malack's intervention stops Nale and Sabine from easily killing all three victims.
Qarr's intervention keeps Z from killing V, even if it's clear V knocked him out anyway.

[Masamichi]

The involvement of the little imp certainly makes it seem to me that a real in universe force was the one doing the saving as it makes the choice on from characters clearly set up as manipulating things behind the scenes. Should we assume or believe that the portal ability came directly from Quarr then.....I dunno the scene becomes less about undercutting V's moment of triumph and more about foreshadowing the protection of the IFCC for V. The changed focus means I forgive this one.

Hmm. I somehow completely forgot about the imp's involvement with Z. He just kind of vanished from my awareness after V told him to get lost.

That explains why the target location was merely annoying instead of significantly dangerous.

For me it was initially irritating (almost as much as the previous fight) because of the 1-2 punch of Thog v. Roy followed by 'food-themed demiplane' (but the context of outside meddling softens that a bit in hindsight).

That being said if ZZ is normally able to cast the spell (i.e. it was not simply pulled out of thin air) and would have been able to without Quarr being there I can see why it is irkful indeed.

Yeah, that's the thing I'm unclear on. The underlying message would still seem to be that if Z had chosen a better destination he would have won -- so I suppose the question is if it was something he couldn't do without the imp or not. Of course, it may not be particularly relevant if he can't do it again, anyway.

The fact that V's in that pit trap currently does mean.... Oh, I see; that fits together as a narrative much more neatly, and so far without the unfortunate effects of Thog v. Roy followed by the unmasking of not!Thog being (for now, at least) pointless.

I suppose if that narrative bit is to keep V offscreen and surprise Z later when his spells are exhausted (since Z would presumably believe that V is still 'off in some plane'), that would make sense. It doesn't really address my personal dissatisfaction with the handling of Thog v. Roy, but it does redeem things quite a bit on the V front.

Thank you for that point of clarification! It was very helpful. :)

[oppyu]

Hmm.

I forgot Qarr's meddling there. Still, having an imp's trickery be the only thing that saved V from a crushing last minute defeat still undercuts a 'V won' narrative. It makes V unable to finish off the foe and leaves them both at full strength in hardily a day's time.

Roy and the Order overall are the only wins in encounter. Oh, V beat the kobold too. That's true.

Roy beat Thog.
Belkar on a reread doesn't seem to have encountered anyone but his cat?
V beat the kobold (Mind control)
Z at least got a draw and I think a win on V. Imp trechery to keep V alive aside.
Z stoned haley, stayed out of the whole fight.
Sabine/Nale beat Elan into patheticness.
Sabine/Nale beat Durkon into patheticness.
Malack beat both Sabine and Nale, practically by himself.

Order wins as Nale, Sabine, Z, Kobold, and Nale are out of the picture.

For 1 day/eleven comics before being entirely returned to full strength, and improved upon by getting both Malack and Tarquinn added to their team.

Edit:
Interventions:
Old dude's intervention with healing potion saves Roy.
Malack's intervention stops Nale and Sabine from easily killing all three victims.
Qarr's intervention keeps Z from killing V, even if it's clear V knocked him out anyway.

Don't forget Amun-Zora attacking Nale, allowing Elan to break free and find Durkon

[rgrekejin]

Don't forget Amun-Zora attacking Nale, allowing Elan to break free and find Durkon

Yes, but it was Elan that let Amun-Zora out and set her on Nale. This one should actually go to Elan's credit as a successful diversionary tactic.

[Dracos]

Don't forget Amun-Zora attacking Nale, allowing Elan to break free and find Durkon

True. Basically my point with that is:
It doesn't feel like the Order really won because so many of the encounters were only survivals or victories based on the assistance of outside forces.

Following this with the entire order being held off in what seems an almost trivially amused fashion by a single member of the new Linear Guild makes the Order feel incompetent and lame, mere days later in the narrative without even a breath of "Well, we really beat the heck out of them too, so at least they're off our backs a while" robs weight of the victory of the order as a while.

Basically, as delivered, it feels like they need a plot stick to pull them out of the scenario going on right now, because how could they possibly be competent enough to do so by themselves? They're outnumbered, very recent history says they're out-powered, even if that was excluding belkar, and right in the current present, literally the entire Linear Guild can almost stand on the side and take potshots casually without it being a big thing since the Order has no way currently to deal with their flying cover or their single member taking on all five of them.

This is disappointing as while it is often contrivance, environment, or outside aid that helps the order keep on, they also felt previously like they were at least competent enough to hold their own/drive off the B-tier villians by themselves. In both their first encounter and their encounter when Nale pulled one over on them, they were entirely able to do that, and contriviance instead was how the Order managed to keep the Linear guild from their bigger victories.

Here? It seems like contriviance is now how the Order is able to not get steamrolled at all.

Speaking in a mechanics sense, since we seem to focus on that here, there's nothing that should be stopping Z from blasting obnoxious save or suck spells at the outliers of the group during this encounter that's taking place right now. Clearly several rounds are taking place as everyone is making many separate actions, but the rest of the linear guild is just off camera and sitting there. We know from the recent encounter that Z has a very effective turn to stone spell Z could just use on Haley again to take her completely out of the fight since she's standing outside the direct melee firing arrows into it. We know Sabine could just fly down there and render their cleric impotent again. Last time it literally took a single touch to ruin his ****. Tarquinn seems completely able to occupy everyone's attention while this is taking place.

With V out of the picture, the enemies having ambush, blinding cover from being shot at, flight, and having Tarquinn and Malack also on their side, it feels like they've significantly upped their cards. The same cards that were totally capable of nearly murdering the whole order (minus belkar) the last time. Sure, Belkar is there and he practically never loses in a fight, but it's not like he can fly to deal with the rest of them up there.

I think Xykon or someone else will show up and change the picture. This will be disappointing as twice in a row, the Order will have avoided serious fatalities solely by the whimsy of the machinations of other villains or characters, and not by leveraging their own talents as high level characters (For the most part).

[Smolder]

Basically, as delivered, it feels like they need a plot stick to pull them out of the scenario going on right now, because how could they possibly be competent enough to do so by themselves?

It's called "suspense". It's a feeling writers try to create by making it look like the heroes are facing insurmountable odds.

[zimmerwald1915]

Speaking in a mechanics sense, since we seem to focus on that here, there's nothing that should be stopping Z from blasting obnoxious save or suck spells at the outliers of the group during this encounter that's taking place right now.

Sure there is: Z's spell preparation. Granted, we've got no idea what Z has prepared, or even how many spell slots he has - except that seven of his spell slots, one for each spell level we know he's got, must contain a Transmutation spell. So far he's cast three spells today that we can be sure of: Fly (a level 3 Transmutation, on himself), Vitriolic Sphere (a level 5 Conjuration, on the Order, possibly meta'd to be higher level), and Empowered Vitriolic Sphere (a level 7 Conjuration, on the Order). It's perfectly believable that that Empowered Vitriolic Sphere was Z's only non-Transmutation level 7 spell. Furthermore, since people like talking about narrative and treat the physics of the world like they're something dirty, it's also perfectly believable that Z prepared a mostly anti-V list for today and is both counting on the rest of the LG to keep the OOTS occupied, and waiting for V to show herself.

We know from the recent encounter that Z has a very effective turn to stone spell Z could just use on Haley again to take her completely out of the fight since she's standing outside the direct melee firing arrows into it.

Flesh to Stone has a Medium range (say around 230-250 feet). At the moment Z is over 900 feet away from the Order. Flying at 120 feet per round, it would take him several rounds to move into range for Flesh to Stone, assuming he doesn't spend a precious spell slot on teleporting closer. Further assuming that moving closer is even a good idea. Z's got a good thing going, being outside longbow range. Moving closer diminishes the protection the sun and distance gives him from Haley.

We know Sabine could just fly down there and render their cleric impotent again. Last time it literally took a single touch to ruin his ****.

Are you referring to the time Sabine fought Durkon in the Dungeon of Dorukan? Because I clearly remember a couple energy drains from Nale preceding Sabine's attack on Durkon the last time they fought. And Durkon wasn't even incapacitated, just secure enough in Malack to indulge in a little head game. Sabine is also carrying Nale at the moment, and is in no position to engage anyone in melee until she puts him down.

[Smolder]

it's also perfectly believable that Z prepared a mostly anti-V list for today and is both counting on the rest of the LG to keep the OOTS occupied, and waiting for V to show herself.

A really good analysis of Z's spells slots and tactics. But what if Z doesn't know that V has returned from the other plane? Would Z have prepared the same set of spells as last time? If Z has switched most of his slots to spells that work well against non-spell-casters like Vitriolic Sphere, then V may stand a much better chance in the rematch.

Also note that YY's recent passing also prevents the LG from noticing him and deducing that V is also back.

[zimmerwald1915]

A really good analysis of Z's spells slots and tactics. But what if Z doesn't know that V has returned from the other plane? Would Z have prepared the same set of spells as last time? If Z has switched most of his slots to spells that work well against non-spell-casters like Vitriolic Sphere, then V may stand a much better chance in the rematch.

I believe this was discussed either further up this thread or in one of the previous response-to-strip threads, and I further believe that the consensus was that Z would know V was back. That said, I'm far from one-hundred percent confident in these recollections, and am probably off the mark. That said, we are talking about the wizard who relies on Nale to tell him what divinations to use and how to use them, so any assumption about what he knows is going to be suspect.