OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread

[Euodiachloris]

Well, I, for one, have enjoyed this whole thing, so far.

Do I know where this fight is going? No.
Do I know it's going somewhere? Yes.
Am I enjoying the jokes both at the Order's, the Guild's and Tarquin's expense? Yes.
Do I think Tarquin is likely to come to a really sticky end that will have a major dose of irony attached? Hell, yes!

Haven't a clue how, though.

Bear with it, folks. As has been said elsewhere: in 6 or so months, when you read this bit back again, it'll hit you differently.

[konradknox]

Oh crap. I realized what Tarquin is doing.
He's not out here to hurt OOTS, he's here to help them.

That's why he convinced Malack to come along, because he knows Sabine is working for the IFCC and suspects their plot. That's why he couldn't just gank Nale back in the palace. He needs Malack's help to neutralize her.

You see, Tarquin knows that Elan will never accept his gifts knowing that his magic items are made of remains of benevolent creatures. So his plan is to engage the Order early, beat them up plenty, and get them to a stressful point, so that they stop considering origin and nature of Tarquin's items and just loot them off his body.

Haley will remove his mask as Elan accidentally deals the final strike, and Tarquin will reveal that he came here to die. That's why he planted a tracing spell on the magic carpet he gave them. Then, he will tell Malack "you know what to do", and pass away. Belkar will pick up the regeneration ring, Roy will take Tarquin's armor, Durkon will grab his Tarquin's axe. Together with Malack, and Tarquin's items, the OOTS will wipe the floor with LG.

[Whiffet]

Whenever you're losing faith in the direction of the story, whenever you think things are just going downhill and taking too long to reach any kind of resolution, or you think there's no way the Order can get out of any kind of mess, or whatever... I find it helps to look back at old discussion threads and see/remind yourself what people had to say back then.

[ti'esar]

Whenever you're losing faith in the direction of the story, whenever you think things are just going downhill and taking too long to reach any kind of resolution, or you think there's no way the Order can get out of any kind of mess, or whatever... I find it helps to look back at old discussion threads and see/remind yourself what people had to say back then.

Personally, I find that more depressing then helpful - years later and the fans still seem to be underrating Rich's abilities as a storyteller (and especially, as mentioned earlier, his pacing).

I don't mean to pick an argument with the people who are complaining - really, everyone has their own opinion - but I still have to notice the similarity between some of the "Tarquin is a borderline Villain Sue" complaints and numerous reactions in the thread following Xykon's "bouncing ball" trick.

[Masamichi]

I don't mean to pick an argument with the people who are complaining - really, everyone has their own opinion - but I still have to notice the similarity between some of the "Tarquin is a borderline Villain Sue" complaints and numerous reactions in the thread following Xykon's "bouncing ball" trick.

I don't feel you are picking an argument, for what that's worth. I just have this stick that's +5 vs. dead horses, so....

Anyway -- I'll just note that I'm new here; registered just for this thread. I don't know what the drama you're referencing is about, but I do know that I've never felt more compelled to try and share my concerns with the creator of the strip until now. :x

[rgrekejin]

Because, as has been said elsewhere in this thread, that 'victory' quite frankly came across as a total ass pull, not any miracle of planning. Yes, Roy's last-ditch desparation/convenience plan did work, but only after all his more thought-out plans failed in a completely one-sided fight. One that was cheapened by the point of Thog's rage ending before he was hit by the falling rubble anyway

In fact, every bit of planning right up until Thog handed the victory to Roy by throwing him through the wall was explicitly overcome with raw power. The deconstruction was further (and gratingly) underscored by Thog (of all beings!) giving clear and valid arguments as to why Roy's line of reasoning was faulty. If you find that satisfying, then I suppose more power to you -- to me, it feels empty, and (as again, was stated elswhere), hollow and unearned.

All his more thought-out plans? What planning did Roy do, exactly? His entire plan up until the moment he crashed through the floor seemed to have been to hit Thog really hard and hope Thog ran out of hit points before he did. He didn't seem to have much of a plan going in to the fight at all. That's exactly my point: Roy is not some sort of master planner who always goes in to combat with a specific tactic in mind to defeat his opponent. Roy uses his intelligence to take advantage of circumstances as they arise, which in this case meant exploiting his surroundings. So you can't say that Roy's plans for beating Thog were overcome by raw power... Roy didn't really have a plan to begin with. But when circumstance presented him with a way to beat Thog, he was smart enough to recognize it, and take advantage of it. I think that Roy's final remark to the buried-under-a-pile-of-rubble Thog serves as the appropriate final rebuke to the arguments Thog presented in the arena. Roy's line of reasoning was not faulty... it won him the fight! Roy does not, and likely never will, go in to fights with complete plans for how he's going to take down his foe. But he's adaptable, and thinks on his feet, and that's what mattered here.

But to point out something you brought up yourself, you pointed out several places where the Order has been victorious. The thing you're overlooking is that all of those events were in the past, suggesting an unfortunate downward trend in heroic competence (or an equally unfortunate updward trend in villanous competence).

To put it most simply: I don't enjoy reading about the main characters becoming less effective as time goes on, which absolutely feels like it's what's going on here.

Well, to each his own, I suppose, though I think it is odd to expect the Order to emerge victorious in the middle of a plot arc. But at this stage in the game, both the Order and their enemies are highly competent. In specific, the Linear Guild has their act much more together than at any point in the past. I don't think it should be alarming that the Order is struggling against better competition. In fact, I'd be irritated if the villains remained stagnant.

I would not accept such a bet, but only because I'd feel bad about taking your money. Nale has plot immunity; if he hasn't been killed for any of his other shenanigans before, I have a hard time believing that's suddenly going to change here. Even if the creator did have the guts to do it, I would counter bet-you further real money that he'd come back faster than you can say, "Sabine and a 5000gp diamond."

If I'm wrong, I would be truly and utterly shocked. As a character, Nale is the lead of an incredibly annoying, "exist solely to kick the PC's teeth in," troupe.

Nale or Sabine may survive, but I fully expect this Gate to be the end of the Linear Guild as a major player. Perhaps I am wrong, but this seems like the place for the second-rate villain to make his stand, before the big showdown with Team Evil at the final Gate. I am not so convinced that Nale's stooges have any part to play in the plot beyond that, or, if they do, that it will be a major part. I suppose I have no way of convincing you of any of this, but, if it were true, would it help?

And that is what we are upset about. It gets annoying, and spreads that feeling of "saved by the plot". And that should never be a reason to explain a victory.

To be fair, the more blatant examples of being saved by the plot have mostly occurred earlier on in the story. If anything, they've been decreasing lately to correspond to the Order's increased effectiveness. And, more to the point, recent examples of "saved by the plot" are only debatably so, whereas no one can really argue that the plot saved V's butt against that Death Knight. In my opinion, Thog/Roy was absolutely not an example of saved by the plot. And most other recent examples are equally questionable. Heck, Z's survival against V may have been an example of this sort of thing actually working against the order.

That's just not fair, and a cop-out. Determined not to be pleased? Really? So they aren't allowed to dislike the way the fight went down because of a hypothetical you made? I personally liked the way it went down, but to say that those that didn't are "determined not to be pleased" is taking it too far.

Of course you can like or not like the way a particular fight went down however you wish. It is not my place to say. But the example I gave is not a hypothetical, it is illustrated on this thread. When Roy uses his brains to make the environment work against Thog, he is accused of not "earning" the victory. If he uses his intelligence, he's apparently cheating somehow. If he doesn't use his intelligence... well, then he really is just a big dumb fighter, isn't he?

Well, okay, I guess you've probably just successfully pointed out to me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Or that I just dislike the comic and should probably stop reading it.

Thanks, and sorry for any ruffled feathers I might have caused. I'll just shut up before I reveal myself as being even dumber (and no, I'm not speaking ironically here).

...you know, I probably deserved that. But I honestly wonder why it is this one thing, out of all the possible things, that seems to be bothering people. I'm legitimately curious about what it is about it that makes it different from all the other physically improbable things that happen in this comic.

[Chess Tyrant]

Oh crap. I realized what Tarquin is doing.
He's not out here to hurt OOTS, he's here to help them.

That's why he convinced Malack to come along, because he knows Sabine is working for the IFCC and suspects their plot. That's why he couldn't just gank Nale back in the palace. He needs Malack's help to neutralize her.

You see, Tarquin knows that Elan will never accept his gifts knowing that his magic items are made of remains of benevolent creatures. So his plan is to engage the Order early, beat them up plenty, and get them to a stressful point, so that they stop considering origin and nature of Tarquin's items and just loot them off his body.

Haley will remove his mask as Elan accidentally deals the final strike, and Tarquin will reveal that he came here to die. That's why he planted a tracing spell on the magic carpet he gave them. Then, he will tell Malack "you know what to do", and pass away. Belkar will pick up the regeneration ring, Roy will take Tarquin's armor, Durkon will grab his Tarquin's axe. Together with Malack, and Tarquin's items, the OOTS will wipe the floor with LG.

Of course, given that Malack is the one holding up the Control Winds spell and Tarquin probably has near-unlimited access to magic items and scrolls (Dimensional Anchor and Dimension Lock come to mind) it wouldn't be hard for him to crush Nale/Sabine/Zz'dtri without getting himself killed and causing major damage to the Order while he's at it. It seems a little... Needlessly complicated.

[Masamichi]

All his more thought-out plans? What planning did Roy do, exactly? His entire plan up until the moment he crashed through the floor seemed to have been to hit Thog really hard and hope Thog ran out of hit points before he did. [...] Roy does not, and likely never will, go in to fights with complete plans for how he's going to take down his foe. But he's adaptable, and thinks on his feet, and that's what mattered here.

Perhaps I overstated this. Roy went in with the expecation that he'd win and had a strategy. It was then demeaned and belittled by Thog beating him up both physically, and in the field of debate, which (IMO) felt like it was just incidental to an unfortunate author's tract about statting, and how int really is useless for a fighter against a barbarian.

I don't feel that it's a great showing for the first significant battle that Roy gets into after his (one would hope) awesome afterlife training is a one-sided beatdown that he survives not with his skill or techniques ... but architecture that he only found because he out-HPed a raging barbarian (it feels like a weak, cheap, and clumsy victory to me).

But I don't think it's productive to keep arguing this; it's not really on-topic for the current thread, and.... Well, let's step away from this whole front of discussion. We disagree, and while I doubt you intend it, it very much feels like you're trying to 'correct' the opinions that don't match yours. I may be doing the same (and not realizing it, because this is becoming more heated than I'm comfortable with), which I don't particularly enjoy finding myself doing, so my apologies for that.

At this point, I believe my stance was well established, even if you don't find it palatable. Sorry we couldn't find common ground on that one. :\

Well, to each his own, I suppose, though I think it is odd to expect the Order to emerge victorious in the middle of a plot arc. But at this stage in the game, both the Order and their enemies are highly competent. In specific, the Linear Guild has their act much more together than at any point in the past. I don't think it should be alarming that the Order is struggling against better competition. In fact, I'd be irritated if the villains remained stagnant.

Contrariwise, I find it surprising that it's acceptable that the heroes suffer consistent defeats so long as they win at the end.... Not that this is wrong, but it's outside of my personal range of tolerance.

I think we're looking at mismatched expectations in terms of competence? I want to read about competent characters overcoming difficulties and achieving their goals. Characters that survive and accomplish nothing that feels meaningful until the very end tends to frustrate me. Schadenfreude isn't my thing, though I can tolerate small doses; I probably have an unreasonable level of empathy for the main characters.

Nale or Sabine may survive, but I fully expect this Gate to be the end of the Linear Guild as a major player. Perhaps I am wrong, but this seems like the place for the second-rate villain to make his stand, before the big showdown with Team Evil at the final Gate. I am not so convinced that Nale's stooges have any part to play in the plot beyond that, or, if they do, that it will be a major part. I suppose I have no way of convincing you of any of this, but, if it were true, would it help?

I may be wrong, but my gut feeling is that the author simply likes Nale too much to discard him regardless of what happens next. I'm personally tired of him, and echo the previously offered sentiment that if the Order cannot overcome a minor villain like him, they've got no chance against a more significant threat. What happens to his lackeys is of even less interest to me, seeing as they aren't really foils as much as raw counters.

For what it's worth, I recognize that my expectations are probably an increasingly poor match for the comic. I honestly am fully ready to give up on reading it; where I used to enjoy it greatly, more and more it's just annoying watching the Order get trounced. It's getting to the point where I'm reading it more out of a grudge than any form of appreciation.... ("How much worse can it get?")

From where I am, probably the entire thing is unredeemable. I'm not trying to sway anyone, but I felt the author (and I don't know, maybe others) would be interested in seeing where the turning point for loss-of-interest was? Well. I've probably done that, so I suppose there's no real purpose to commenting further.

Edit: Spelling, my eternal foe.

[ti'esar]

I think we're looking at mismatched expectations in terms of competence?

I think it's safe to say that you're looking at different definitions in terms of competence (and quite a few other things, for that matter) then most of the other people here.

[Jabberwok]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0798.html

Roy did have a plan. He could have busted out and fought the entire LG with the Order. But he chose to fight Thog and send Belkar alone to distract Tarquin.
He was biding for time. Time for his order to beat out the guild while he was getting tossed around by Thog.
I think the fact he won against Thog was a nice bonus, he showed Thog who was the better warrior. But the truly important victory was already made in this strip. He trusted his team.

[Mike_the_Mystic]

I don't know if anyone else has referenced it, but the reveal made me think of this "Nope"

[Warren Dew]

Where did Roy get "Leads with the other foot" from? Everyone always faces the camera, so everyone changes what foot they lead with depending on if they're facing left or right.

It was a joke. At least, I found it funny.

[Whiffet]

Personally, I find that more depressing then helpful - years later and the fans still seem to be underrating Rich's abilities as a storyteller (and especially, as mentioned earlier, his pacing).

I don't mean to pick an argument with the people who are complaining - really, everyone has their own opinion - but I still have to notice the similarity between some of the "Tarquin is a borderline Villain Sue" complaints and numerous reactions in the thread following Xykon's "bouncing ball" trick.

Eh, maybe. That is a bit depressing. On the other hand, it can remind you that the things people really didn't like back then aren't considered a big deal now. So the things people don't like now will one day not be considered a big deal.

Besides, the more people underrate what Rich has planned, the more everyone will be caught off-guard when the time comes for him to blow us away.

[Masamichi]

I think it's safe to say that you're looking at different definitions in terms of competence (and quite a few other things, for that matter) then most of the other people here.

Well ... that confirms there's nothing to be gained by remaining here, then, so thanks for that...

[Euodiachloris]

Well ... that confirms there's nothing to be gained by remaining here, then, so thanks for that...

<free hugs, Masamichi>

Nobody was picking at you, personally, you know. Stick with us. Next time, you might be surprised who has your back in an argument. These forums are like that.

[ti'esar]

Well ... that confirms there's nothing to be gained by remaining here, then, so thanks for that...

I'm not trying to be rude. It just seems like the comic you're reading doesn't really match the same one most of us are.

[Whiffet]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0798.html

Roy did have a plan. He could have busted out and fought the entire LG with the Order. But he chose to fight with Thog and send Belkar alone to distract Tarquin.
He was biding for time. Time for his order to beat out the guild while he was getting tossed around by Thog.
I think the fact he won against Thog was a nice bonus, he showed Thog who was the better warrior. But the truly important victory was already made in this strip. He trusted his team.

Ah, man. I really didn't want to get involved in this discussion on the Roy vs. Thog fight, but I love that strip so much! Seriously, we see Roy do the arrow trick, notice V and Z, make the decision people keep forgetting about (drag the fight out as long as possible so the Linear Guild could be dealt with without drawing suspicion from Tarquin), and creatively use the empty bottle. He demonstrates awareness of his surroundings and an ability to think on the fly. The arrow and glass also point at how he's able to use aspects of his environment effectively. In short, he shows how a fighter can be intelligent.

[rgrekejin]

We disagree, and while I doubt you intend it, it very much feels like you're trying to 'correct' the opinions that don't match yours. I may be doing the same (and not realizing it, because this is becoming more heated than I'm comfortable with), which I don't particularly enjoy finding myself doing, so my apologies for that.

I apologize if I've been rude or made you uncomfortable. Must be my exceedingly lawful nature at work.

[ti'esar]

Ah, man. I really didn't want to get involved in this discussion on the Roy vs. Thog fight, but I love that strip so much! Seriously, we see Roy do the arrow trick, notice V and Z, make the decision people keep forgetting about (drag the fight out as long as possible so the Linear Guild could be dealt with without drawing suspicion from Tarquin), and creatively use the empty bottle. He demonstrates awareness of his surroundings and an ability to think on the fly. The arrow and glass also point at how he's able to use aspects of his environment effectively. In short, he shows how a fighter can be intelligent.

Same feeling here.

[jere7my]

Contrariwise, I find it surprising that it's acceptable that the heroes suffer consistent defeats so long as they win at the end.... Not that this is wrong, but it's outside of my personal range of tolerance.

Well, that's your call. But that's pretty much the definition of dramatic structure. Google for what Tolkien called "eucatastrophe," or watch The Empire Strikes Back, which is a 100% victory-free movie.

[Vladislav]

I think I figured out how Tarquin is able to do all those things - throw enemies around, make many attacks, heal, etc. The source of his power, if you will...

Spoiler

Show

He's a 4th edition character ...

[ti'esar]

Well, that's your call. But that's pretty much the definition of dramatic structure. Google for what Tolkien called "eucatastrophe," or watch The Empire Strikes Back, which is a 100% victory-free movie.

I think that depends on how you define "victory". Just because the heroes' situation should generally grow worse doesn't mean they can't score victories along the way. To use your example of Empire, we have the Rebels downing several walkers at Hoth (including one by our hero single-handedly) and most of the escape transports getting away. It's not a straight-out "bad guys win, no bright spot" scenario.

Of course, neither is an OOTS arc, at least in my view.

[snikrept]

Hmm, else where in the comic older characters are mentioned as being from older editions though

r.e. Victory: the bad guys are 0 for 3 now at gate capture. Nothing but losses for them regarding the main plot.

[theNater]

Roy went in with the expecation that he'd win and had a strategy.

Roy explicitly did not have a strategy. When Thog asked him how he'd use his intelligence in combat, Roy responds "I'll figure something out, that's sort of the whole point."

You can feel however you like about the fight, but you can't reasonably claim Roy's strategy was beaten. His plan, such as it was, was to figure something out, and when an opportunity presented itself, he took it. A lesser fighter would have died under the stands.

[ti'esar]

r.e. Victory: the bad guys are 0 for 3 now at gate capture. Nothing but losses for them regarding the main plot.

Gates blowing up is not exactly a "win" for the good guys, though. But I think the point of sims796 and co is more that the Order constantly loses until the end of each arc, making that eventual victory cheap and unsatisfying.

[FujinAkari]

Gates blowing up is not exactly a "win" for the good guys, though. But I think the point of sims796 and co is more that the Order constantly loses until the end of each arc, making that eventual victory cheap and unsatisfying.

This would be a good point if it had any relationship with fact. However, the sand slaves, Thog, the Linear Guild (all three fights), the bandits, the island demon, kubota, Crystal...

When does the Order actually lose again?

[ti'esar]

I didn't say I agreed with their position (I don't), just that the bad guys losing at the end of an arc didn't invalidate it.

[Murray]

One of the things illustrated by the turn of events in the arena fight, was that Roy isn't just a Fighter, but a leader. Thog ultimately is just looking out for Thog's interests, while Roy has the responsibility of not just managing his screwball adventuring party, but also taking down Xykon, saving the world, and keeping Belkar from butchering innocent people.

And while Roy may have 'lost' the battle in the arena, his party 'won' the overall encounter and then moved towards their primary goal. In the larger picture, The Order seems actually reasonably okay at winning battles, but fairly dismal when it comes to winning the 'war'. This may be disheartening for people used to episodic storytelling, but on the epic scale, each hollow victory adds to the overall suspense and ups the stakes each time.

If the victory is too easy, is it truly a victory?

[Ravenfeather]

Dunno if anyone has brought this up so far, but: shouldn't Belkar be able to "tell by the smell" who "Thog" really is? He's just as close to Tarquin as he was to Nale in #383, when he noticed almost instantly.

[Icedaemon]

The problem with Roy being a high-intelligence fighter is that he has not built himself to make the most use of it. Tarquin seems to have though. While it's too late for Roy to be retaking feats, he could at least hopefully take some pointers from this fight. For all his claims to cleverness, in fights he has tended for the straightforward dumb protagonist tactics, such as trying to fight from atop a zombie dragon.