OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread

[Masamichi]

All right. My two previous points regarding this argument (that the villains are now too strong for the Order to believably succeed against them and be 'heroic') were that this has been the case throughout the comic, and that this has been the case in other quite successful stories, especially if you consider particular checkpoints of a work in progress (The Empire Strikes Back was mentioned). Is there some particular aspect about OotS that makes it less appropriate to have the heroes repeatedly fail partway through the story? Or is there some other factor that makes their failures especially galling?

The particularly egregious way that the dialog tends to hammers the point home (Thog was by far the most infuriating example ("I'm dumb, but you lose anyway! And I'm still smart enough to tell you why your intelligence does nothing for you!"). Probably this is meant to be charmingly skirting the fourth wall, but to me it crosses the line between 'the heroes are challenged and won't always succeed' and pretty much meanders straight into schadenfreude.

I'm not saying that the heroes have to always win every encounter; yes, they should be challenged. If there's room in the story, they can lose fights. But not to the point where it overshadows the possibility of success beyond a hasty, "Oh, well, here's this convenient thing that was handed to us!" (diablolous ex machina, anti-barbarian architecture, &cetera).

I also don't feel that this is particularly analogous to 'The Empire Strikes Back', because at this point the PCs are ostensibly on the offense, whereas in that movie they were on the defense. It's not established as 'the Order must flee and survive, and do their best to rally against their foe for an eventual encounter.' While that was the context for the scenes following Xykon taking over Azure City, at this point they're supposed to be counter-attacking (pre-emptively getting to the Gate). And it instead feels like, 'the Order has seized initiative and are doing their best ... so lets watch them fail with a succession of increasingly wacky pratfalls until it's time for them to be catapulted across the finish line'.

One additional point to consider is that "Evil turns upon itself" is by no means a poor literary theme to pursue, in the likely event that the Giant moves in that direction. We even have it explicitly drawn out by the IFCC during the Darth V arc: Evil isn't one big happy family, destructive unnecessary conflict has held the evil races back for all these years, and so on. Is it then dramatically inappropriate to have the foreseeable LG fracture and the foreseeable arrival of Team Evil breaking up the current fight?

I don't believe so, but then that wasn't my point of contention. I'm saying this story is poorly delivered; I'm not saying those themes can't be (and as you point out have been) delivered better. I suppose there could be some common ground insofar as Luke taking a beating before Vader's Heel-Face-Turn, but the real fight was Luke vs. the temptation of the dark side, so that isn't particularly analogous either; Luke was able to hold his own and achieve the meaningful victory of not giving in to temptation.

We don't have much in the way of meaningful victory, here, and believe me, I looked. Instead it feels that the villanous competence so far overshadows the heroes capabilites that they may as well be utterly incompetent (observe that Elan's had the greatest measure of success among the Order for quite some time, and generally gotten out of fights with the least amount of damage taken; that feels like a pretty direct message that competence does nothing for the heroes in context).

[sims796]

What can really be said? There are things he doesn't like. At this point, it seems like people are just trying to change his opinion. He isn't relenting, I'm not changing how I feel, and we have a genuine reason that we are giving for not liking these aspects that apparently won't convince you of what we don't like about the comic. All we can do now is let it die.

[ti'esar]

What can really be said? There are things he doesn't like. At this point, it seems like people are just trying to change his opinion. He isn't relenting, I'm not changing how I feel, and we have a genuine reason that we are giving for not liking these aspects that apparently won't convince you of what we don't like about the comic. All we can do now is let it die.

I certainly agree with this more then anything else you've said. The argument is not going anywhere; let's just drop it.

[Chessgeek]

Funny comic. Can't wait for the next one.

I just wanted to break up the flow of the argument. Carry on.

[sims796]

I certainly agree with this more then anything else you've said. The argument is not going anywhere; let's just drop it.

Thanks...I think.

But this is starting to get more heated than (then?) it should, over opinions. I know we all hate the "opinion clause", but we are arguing over personal perspective in how we view the comic. Soon, the words "fanboy" and "hater" will pop up, and worse, we'll start having multiple links to tvtropes in order to prove a point. And I'm pretty sure we don't want that.

I have an assignment to write, can't get caught up in that site now.

[rewinn]

Ok, so you've been forced into a gladiatorial arena fight. What is the master plan supposed to be if you have been stripped of all your possessions, contact with members of your party is extremely limited or nil, and armed guards are everywhere to enforce the fact that you are supposed to hit the other guy till he dies? Make a cannon out of rock rubble and dirt?

Alas, the Gorn Cannon has been mythbusted ... but of course they weren't using Kirk's Alien Super-strong Bamboo so it remains a viable option under the right circumstances.

...Or watch the frequency with which NFL Helmets are taken off (a time or two per game).

Yes, it's not a constant occurrence, but it does happen, and it ain't *that* hard.

That is all true, but let us also note the sheer awesomeness of the Rip Helmet Off feat. Roy deliberately exposed himself to direct counterattack by Tarquin ... a very risky maneuver. Almost anything else Roy could have done with his hands would have inflicted more direct damage, but at that point, Roy felt it was worth surrendering another round of direct damage in favor of acquiring the intel he needed to win the fight. That's Leadership indeed ... that's Fighting with More Than Weapons.

Tough break for Roy that his opponent is better at that sort of thing than he is.

[Kish]

The particularly egregious way that the dialog tends to hammers the point home (Thog was by far the most infuriating example ("I'm dumb, but you lose anyway! And I'm still smart enough to tell you why your intelligence does nothing for you!").

...But Thog lost.

Probably this is meant to be charmingly skirting the fourth wall,

Probably the things Thog said were things Thog said, and you're seeing Voice Of Author somewhere where it wasn't.

Especially since, you know, Thog lost.

[Math_Mage]

...But Thog lost.

He's probably talking about "Thog already know how to use Thog's best ability score in fight."

Of course, that whole scene was a setup for Roy showing how one uses one's Intelligence score in combat, but as Masamishi dislikes that climax, one can't expect him to like the lead-in.

[Kish]

He's probably talking about "Thog already know how to use Thog's best ability score in fight."

I got that. The thing is, it makes absolutely no sense to interpret something that the loser said during a fight which he lost as rubbing the winner's nose in something or speaking to the audience. It's...like taking Dorukan's fight with Xykon as proof that wizards beat sorcerers.

[ti'esar]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Masamichi]

{{Scrubbed}}

[sims796]

Ah crap, it went ugly. Well, I liked the whole mask-under-mask bit, it caught me off guard.

[Masamichi]

Ah crap, it went ugly. Well, I liked the whole mask-under-mask bit, it caught me off guard.

I don't think it has. Sorry if I gave the impression of trying to start a flamewar; that was just a statement that one specific person's arguments are not worthy of any further response whatsoever from me. Which shouldn't be ugly, provided that person is capable of keeping themselves in check....

[FujinAkari]

The particularly egregious way that the dialog tends to hammers the point home (Thog was by far the most infuriating example ("I'm dumb, but you lose anyway! And I'm still smart enough to tell you why your intelligence does nothing for you!"). Probably this is meant to be charmingly skirting the fourth wall, but to me it crosses the line between 'the heroes are challenged and won't always succeed' and pretty much meanders straight into schadenfreude.

Interesting, but I entirely disagree with you.

OOTS is a world that operates according to the D&D ruleset, and in this context Thog is not stupid just because he has no ability to evaluate his surroundings, he is stupid because Intellegence is his dump stat. This doesn't mean that Thog is ignorant of the way the world works and he is quite aware of what Intellegence does for martial characters and it absolutely not out of place for him to display such knowledge.

Intellegence is not and should not be the primary attribute by which Strength of Arms is measured, and I'm a little curious why "I'm stupid but I'm still a better fighter than you!" is jarring to you.

[jere7my]

I don't think it has. Sorry if I gave the impression of trying to start a flamewar; that was just a statement that one specific person's arguments are not worthy of any further response whatsoever from me. Which shouldn't be ugly, provided that person is capable of keeping themselves in check....

I think the word "cretin" pretty much seals the deal on ugly. Personal insults ain't cool.

[Masamichi]

{{Scrubbed}}

[factotum]

My point is that the entire fight felt like a statement that for all the party's planning, preparation, and the things they learned, a single optimized villain character can grind them into a paste until the plot timer dings and they're cleared to be successful (then rocks fall, Thog's KOed ... as his rage evidently ran out anyway).

I think you're giving Roy far too little credit for the outcome of that fight. It wasn't a case of the DM decreeing "Rocks fall, everyone Thog dies"--it was Roy using his intelligence to realise he could get the roof to collapse on Thog just as his rage ended. The simple fact is, using his intelligence is the *only* way he could be expected to beat a similar-level barbarian who was no doubt stronger, faster and tougher than him.

Let's turn this round: how do *you* think Roy should have won the fight, considering he was facing an opponent who was physically superior to him in every way?

[jere7my]

And that person's lies claiming I said something that the thread shows I clearly didn't is?

If you'll look back, you'll see that one of my posts also mis-attributes one of your quotes. It looks like there's a minor bug in the commenting system, not a conspiracy. If you're talking about him claiming you said "Roy didn't really win," well, the line between that and "the plot timer dings and they're cleared to be successful" — i.e., Roy won only because the plot dictated that he must — is a pretty thin one. If that's not what you intended, perhaps you could state it more clearly.

This is the internet. You're going to get paraphrased, and sometimes those paraphrases will miss the mark. You can either politely correct them, or you can call them "blatantly slanderous" and hurl personal insults at the paraphraser. The former will make people take you more seriously.

Internet fora breed miscommunications and misinterpretations like bread mold on week-old bagels. Lack of tonal cues and imprecision in word choice contribute to chaos in the best of times. Developing a bit of a thicker skin, and assuming good faith on the part of your conversational partners, help prevent threads from devolving into flame wars and flouncing.

[Masamichi]

Let's turn this round: how do *you* think Roy should have won the fight, considering he was facing an opponent who was physically superior to him in every way?

In vague terms:

I'd have liked to have seen significantly less one-sided Roy beatdown, and significantly more of him working on a plan that was successful before Thog threw him through a wall and handed him the opportunity. This would have required slightly more lampshading and setup in terms of how the arena was shaped to let Roy achieve this, but wouldn't have come across as, "Yes, he's trying, but he can't succeed until x comics have passed."

If that couldn't have been done, just less on-screen curb-stomping to focus on the other characters with only (for example) a single panel per page of Thog and Roy fighting while he was just buying time.

Either of those would have felt like more tasteful handling of the situation; long-story-short, the 'victory' payout didn't justify the time spent working toward it, in my view. I guess it's just that I don't particularly enjoy how long Roy had to lose before he could succeed, and after the magnitude of that beatdown (and those of the others), it feels like the same thing is happening again?

If you'll look back, you'll see that one of my posts also mis-attributes one of your quotes. It looks like there's a minor bug in the commenting system, not a conspiracy. If you're talking about him claiming you said "Roy didn't really win," well, the line between that and "the plot timer dings and they're cleared to be successful" — i.e., Roy won only because the plot dictated that he must — is a pretty thin one. If that's not what you intended, perhaps you could state it more clearly.

The quote system is not to be blamed; that person specifically typed my name out (incorrectly). In any case, this can be easily avoided by using the preview button, or even simply reading the quote tags to make sure the names are correct (I do both, but not everyone is OCD).

Beyond that, if you insist, as I said before, take it to PM so we can stop derailing the thread further. I overstepped proper bounds to defend myself from a false accusation, so I'll apologize to the forum:

I'm sorry everyone else had to deal with that.

Edit: minor clarification; hindsight is 50/50.

[Omergideon]

Either of those would have felt like more tasteful handling of the situation; long-story-short, the 'victory' payout didn't justify the time spent working toward it, in my view. I guess it's just that I don't particularly enjoy how long Roy had to lose before he could succeed, and after the magnitude of that beatdown (and those of the others), it feels like the same thing is happening again?
.

So, if my reading is right, you are stating that the idea of Roy using intelligence to best a physically superior foe is not bad. It is even a good idea (and certainly I think is a dramatically worthy choice). But you take issue with the magnitude of the disparity and the resolution. The physical beatdown was so overwhelming, and the victory from such an unlikely and (seemingly) giftwrapped source that it feels less like genuine ingenuity and more like plot convenience. Is this right?

If so then I fully understand and can respect this. It is certainly valid to me. To disagree is reaching into the realm of people who say "your opinion and personal reaction is completely wrong" on what is clearly a subjective issue.

Though I certainly agree that recently it does seem like any genuine victory of the Order, or act of intelligence is undermined very quickly. The only complete exception to this since they reached the supposed location of Girards Gate (desert one) is V against ZZ'Dritt. That was an excellent piece of development and growth for the little elf and a true (and foreshadowed) triumph of smarts over power. But too often they do seem recently to be failing because of things no-one could have predicted or guessed. Things that come out of nowhere to ruin their otherwise good showings. Some people may think it is ok, but things like Nale pulling the level draining Rod out of nowhere, or the somehow hyper effective ring of regeneration, are problems for me. They seem like......I dunno.......cheating (?) on the part of the villains. In character and logical perhaps. But not something that entertains me.

[factotum]

If so then I fully understand and can respect this. It is certainly valid to me. To disagree is reaching into the realm of people who say "your opinion and personal reaction is completely wrong" on what is clearly a subjective issue.

Agreed. I don't agree with Masamichi's stance on this, but now he's explained it, I can see where he's coming from.

Still, who knows? Xykon could teleport in next strip, and we'd probably end up with both the Order and the Linear Guild fighting for their lives against him...I think we need to see how the current fight plays out before comparing it to Thog in the arena.

[Masamichi]

So, if my reading is right, you are stating that the idea of Roy using intelligence to best a physically superior foe is not bad. It is even a good idea (and certainly I think is a dramatically worthy choice). But you take issue with the magnitude of the disparity and the resolution. The physical beatdown was so overwhelming, and the victory from such an unlikely and (seemingly) giftwrapped source that it feels less like genuine ingenuity and more like plot convenience. Is this right?

Yes, that's the essence of it.

[NBSquare]

Tarquin you sneaky bastard!

But anyway, I hope they can come to an agreement to fight Xykon together.

Actually, the thing is that the Linear Guild has no intention of fighting Xykon, Tarquin is just using Nale as means to get the gate spell from Xykon. OOTS and Tarquin/Linear Guild wouldn't fight together because they have completely different intentions.

[Smolder]

Actually, the thing is that the Linear Guild has no intention of fighting Xykon, Tarquin is just using Nale as means to get the gate spell from Xykon. OOTS and Tarquin/Linear Guild wouldn't fight together because they have completely different intentions.

Thanks for getting this thread back on the rails.

If Tarquin wants the spell, as you suggest, what good is it to him if Xykon controls the remaining gates? Or if all the gates are destroyed? I would presume that you can't cast the spell on the gaping hole in reality, or else they would have just done that in Gobbotopia. So what does Tarquin gain from having the spell but not the gate?

[Omergideon]

Yes, that's the essence of it.

I agree it undermines the heroes when this happens. But my impression was Roy figuring out his plan just early enough to avoid this, and doing just enough damage to Thog in the fight to prevent it being a deus ex resolution to a curbstomp fight. But it is by the barest of margins and I think it only just works.


It is one of the worst ways to let heroes win though. I watch a lot of wrestling and when the top faces do this I get most upset (as I do with top heels being unable to win without cheating, and so cheating constantly). Any victory that feels cheap is a victory that lacks satisfaction.

Edit: Also, does Nale even know about the ritual? Because I don't remember him ever finding out about it.

[Whiffet]

Also, does Nale even know about the ritual? Because I don't remember him ever finding out about it.

I don't think he ever "found out" about it. He just guessed that Xykon had some way to control a gate. It wouldn't be a stretch to also guess the method was a magic ritual.

[Gift Jeraff]

Edit: Also, does Nale even know about the ritual? Because I don't remember him ever finding out about it.

He knows of them. My guess is he heard Xykon or Redcloak say something about a ritual that didn't make sense until after he learned about the Gates.

[kvestori]

Yes, that's the essence of it.

I personally partly disagree and partly agree with Masamichi's evaluation of the arena fight. I think there is a clear turning point in the fight when Roy sees Zz'ditri being escorted away, and after that Roy clear improvises on his non-martial talents, ie. uses his intellect, to finish the fight. However, Masamichi has a point in that up until that moment, Roy was surviving on his Stamina, so it isn't solely a INT victory. Then again, Roy was explicitly demonstrating on how to use INT in a fight, not how to win on intelligence alone.

And the other point Masamichi makes that I think is fair is that that particular victory depended on the author providing the convenient arena structure. However, it's also possible Roy could have won Thog in the arena by something similar, perhaps using another cross-class skill, so that the exact element he uses to his advantage is determined by the time he chooses to end the fight.

But, on a larger scale I fully agree with Masamichi. I too get the feeling that the comic is over-valuing its villains and undermining (thanks to Omergideon for that spot-on word) the victories the heroes achieve. While I too understand the dramatic structure of working your way through difficulties to the ultimate victory, there is, I feel, a lack of those small intermediate victories (like downing an AT-AT in Hoth, or, to use an example closer to home, Roy figuring out how to stop Nale from escaping with the amulet) are in short supply right now.

To some extent it is true that this is the darkest part of the story and the villains need to be showcased in order for the perils the heroes face be well enough understood. But there's just so much going wrong for our heroes that it's getting a bit tiresome. For me, the turning point was Tarquin. He would a cool villain, a creative use of the familiar mine-enemy-of-my-own-blood trope and an interestingly genre savvy opponent in any other story. Here he feels like just that straw that breaks the camels back: just that bit too much. There are some great villains in OOtS - complex and interesting. There was no need for him.

I haven't lost my interest or faith in Mr. Burlew's storytelling yet, however If I had abandoned Hobb's Farseer Trilogy when I felt the same I would have missed on some really good storytelling, imho, so I'm willing to sit this through. And I dare to suggest to you, Masamichi, as someone who (I hope) gets where you're coming, that you do the same.

[Kish]

I personally partly disagree and partly agree with Masamichi's evaluation of the arena fight. I think there is a clear turning point in the fight when Roy sees Zz'ditri being escorted away, and after that Roy clear improvises on his non-martial talents, ie. uses his intellect, to finish the fight. However, Masamichi has a point in that up until that moment, Roy was surviving on his Stamina, so it isn't solely a INT victory. Then again, Roy was explicitly demonstrating on how to use INT in a fight, not how to win on intelligence alone.

And the other point Masamichi makes that I think is fair is that that particular victory depended on the author providing the convenient arena structure.

And the only reason Roy ever needed to use his skill ranks was because the author provided Thog hulking out when Roy broke his tusk. And hulking out again* when Mr. Scruffy knocked Sir Scraggly into the arena. "The battle was ridiculously one-sided until Roy won" is just plain inaccurate, even accepting treating the ultimate victory as not mattering.

And of course Thog doesn't value Intelligence; the first thing we ever learned about him was that he used it as a dump stat. Why is this supposed to mean something about what Rich Burlew believes? (For that matter, Thog kept asking about mechanical benefits Roy got from Intelligence; Roy could probably have beaten Thog by lying and claiming that he had a prestige class that meant his Intelligence bonus translated to DR/flesh, so that Thog needed to drop his greataxe, not use the boulders and walls he used later as improvised weapons, and hit Roy with only his hands and feet to penetrate Roy's DR. He just didn't think of it, or was unwilling to lie.)

*Note that using barbarian rage twice during one encounter is explicitly against the rules of D&D. If anyone relied on deux ex machinas in the Thog vs. Roy fight, it wasn't Roy.

[FujinAkari]

I'm almost positive that it was mentioned that the narrative was more important than the idea of this being bound to a system, other than the context of a party, questing, and other assorted tropes in gaming as the strip progressed. I don't have a reference on hand, but I'll admit, if this is strongly bound to the system still, then I have overlooked that in favor of trying to see things from a narrative/storytelling standpoint.

I believe you're confused.

What Rich has said is: He isn't interested in binding himself to the system.

What he did NOT say is that narrative is more important than the idea of the strip occurring within the 3.5 ruleset. In fact, I would argue that the strip's representation of the characters being aware of the ruleset is the narrative.

There have been two big types of D&D comics over the years: Comics about gamers that focuses on their out-of-game exploits, or story-driven games that focused on the game itself. OOTS is unique, in that it focuses upon the game world. It is, at least when it began, the only story that ever told an immersive story within a game setting in which the rules were in effect, accepted, and known by all participants.

Over the years, Rich has stopped spoofing the rules as heavily, but he has absolutely not changed the basis of his strip, so in this instance Thog does and should understand how characters are created and what attributes do. Thog is dumb, so he should not be eloquent or skillful (and indeed, it was the skill-bonus that eventually allowed Roy to win) but knowing the quintessential truths of the world is something known to every character, regardless of stats.