Random Worldbuilding Questions (Biology, Geography, Society, etc.)

[fusilier]

True, except that most hospitals etc have only maybe 48 hours worth of backup generation. Nowhere near enough to keep going for the months replacing main transformer cores might take. (And that's not counting the difficult problem of making sure the manufacturers of transformer cores can keep things functioning.)

It's a matter of keeping their backup generators supplied with fuel -- which is fairly well distributed and stored across most countries. If society takes prompt action to secure local sources of fuel for emergency use, then hospitals should be able to run on their backup generators for some time. It's not a permanent solution, but it might give enough time to ease a transition.

Retooling to this would be possible, but would take a long time; also, a lot of applications (refrigerated trucks?) would be impossible, and being forced to situate supermarkets by a source of running water is not going to happen anytime soon.

An old fashioned reefer car was loaded with ice! Ice can both be harvested and shipped, or made in a large refrigeration unit.

However, there's no denying that there would be a period where refrigerated foods would be impossible to maintain. So canned/dried foods, and fresh ones from the farmer's markets would be the only options -- and farmer's markets would be swamped pretty quickly. A rationalization of the food distribution network (i.e. sending locally produced food to local markets), would help. People at the very least should start planting gardens (for fresh vegetables and fruit) -- distribution of grain would be a key factor.

As posted above people would probably have to pitch in, and work on communal farms -- at least initially.

Speaking of running water, good luck!

That depends entirely on how water is supplied to the local area. Those who are fortunate enough to be living someplace supplied by aqueducts will be fine. Where I live, most water comes from an underground aquifer, which the city pumps up and stores in tanks -- gravity is used to distribute it from those tanks. City pumping stations will have to be converted to use some other power source, or supplied with backup generators (again, this would be a priority). People who have their own wells -- might need to get some buckets, or clean up those old hand pumps, but they should be able to get water.

Aluminum requires enormous amounts of power, so much so that recycling saves 90% of the cost.

Again, I believe it specifically uses "electricity" to refine the Aluminum out of bauxite. Good point though -- recycling of it might keep the supply of aluminum at an acceptable level.

I'm not arguing that there wouldn't be a transition in society, and that that transition wouldn't be "rough", but that a lot of the things we do now, can be done without electricity, the technology is there. It's just a matter of how quickly the industry can be retooled, and what happens in the interim. How society responds to the crisis I think will also affect how severe it is, and prompt organized action will probably alleviate a lot of suffering.

[headwarpage]

The biggest problem with a sudden failure of electricity (whatever form that may take) isn't that you can't do a lot without electricity, it's that a huge amount of our infrastructure is dependent on electricity, and the transition period to develop workarounds is longer than the time to the total collapse of society. Sure, you can run a diesel engine without electricity, but the pump at the gas station is probably electric. Yes, there's a workaround, but how long will it take to set that up? And you've got to refine the fuel; the refinery probably uses electricity. Again, you could probably work around that; but how long would it take to refit the plant to work that way? Would the workers doing it really work on it that long, with rampant looting going on all around them? If you dedicated food/fuel to the infrastructure work, how long before armed bands tried to take it?

The simple fact is, within a week without power, people would go crazy. Think about all the looting that goes on during natural disasters when power's out for a few days. Now remove all of the federal/humanitarian aid that goes to those areas, and remove the knowledge that the disaster is local and they'll get power back pretty soon. In a city like New York, I'd be surprised if anybody without a gun is alive within a month, maybe less.

In rural areas, the immediate impact would be less; you've got a lot of arable land and a population small enough that the local agricultural base can support it. But we're talking about a very small portion of the population, and they certainly wouldn't have the capacity to bring their food to the rest of the world.

So, all the previous posters are correct. You can build a very robust society without electricity:
IF you have people with the necessary know-how, or books that haven't been burned for fuel.
IF those people are sufficiently organized.
IF those people have access to the necessary resources (need some steel? How are you even going to let somebody with a smelter know you need it, let alone get it shipped to you?)
IF you somehow realize the scope of the problem and make a plan before everything goes pear-shaped.
IF people with more guns don't come along, kill your experts, and take the resources you were using to build an infrastructure to satisfy their short-term needs.

If any of those things fall through, you'll be back to subsistence (or small-scale) farming as soon as enough people kill each other off that you can do it without being attacked, and enough of the stockpiled resources have been used up that farming is more profitable than looting. Call it a year, maybe two.

Of course, this assumes a thoroughly modern society to start with. A pretty substantial portion of the world's population still doesn't have electricity anyway. And another chunk has had it for a short enough time that they could go back to the old ways without too much trouble.

[Beleriphon]

Of course, this assumes a thoroughly modern society to start with. A pretty substantial portion of the world's population still doesn't have electricity anyway. And another chunk has had it for a short enough time that they could go back to the old ways without too much trouble.

Like a substantial portion of Sub-Saharan Africa or South-East Asia. But, assuming a more advanced society (even moderately more advanced) where functionally everything is computer controlled...

[fusilier]

I suppose whether or not the complete collapse of society occurs before people chip in and help each other, depends upon how misanthropic your outlook is. ;-)

The fact of the matter is the people with the command of the most guns are those people who are in power now. Even with a collapse of communications local governors in the US would quickly order out the National Guard, and impose martial law, if necessary to restore order. With a breakdown of communications it might take longer for them to respond, but it would still happen. Even if you're so misanthropic to believe that people would quickly resort to exerting force against their neighbors, the military is going to be the strongest force around. They have the most weapons, the most stockpiles of ammunition, and it's all well guarded and organized. Small bands of "militia" won't last long at all.

Also, let's not forget that there are probably contingency plans for potentially worse disasters already in place -- all-out nuclear war would probably involve considerably more disruption than the collapse of the power grid. That's not to say that living through it would be comfortable, but that government had made plans to survive.

[Yora]

How are magical seals and writings supposed to work? Have people ever come up with explaination why substances need to be arranged in specific patterns to have supernatural effects? Unless it's meant as a magical circuit board or container of magical energy, I don't see how it's supposed to be effective. But then, it wouldn't really be the patterns that are magical.

[Zeful]

How are magical seals and writings supposed to work? Have people ever come up with explaination why substances need to be arranged in specific patterns to have supernatural effects? Unless it's meant as a magical circuit board or container of magical energy, I don't see how it's supposed to be effective. But then, it wouldn't really be the patterns that are magical.

It entirely depends on the fundaments of the magic system (90% of which should be behind the scenes in a well written story) that a single answer is impossible to give you with such little information.

[Aux-Ash]

A common thing I've seen (in my very non-comprehensive studies) seems to be logical symbols.

Salt for instance, can be used to keep preservables pure. Keeping the evil out of food. Thus, logically, salt repels evil. So if you wish to keep evil out of a place, you spread salt either at it's entrances or in a circle around it. Possibly sealing it with a spell to tie the symbol to the world.

More advanced spells require more complex symbology. The pentagram, for instance, has 5 points. Thus it can be very useful for anything that you need to bind using five pillars. Five significant events in your life for instance? Birth, upbringing, coming of age, achievements, future? Thus tying the spell to you.

A triangle obviously represent a trinity of something. A Square a tetrarchy (the four elements, as an example). A circle the unbroken, neverending perfection. A stellar constellation might have a specific trait?

Then the materials used, it's the same thing really. Just symbols for something else. Iron might represent the unbending. Bone death. And so on. The colour too, will be very important.

Writing and drawn symbols operate using the same rules.

[hymer]

My having no degree in semiotics, just take this for the speculation it is:

Symbols have meaning, meaning is power. Words have meaning, they are thought, the well from which all springs.
Symbols are a form of writing. Consider the power of words, how someone can imprint his idea (power) on an animal hide, and send it to a faraway place, where this idea can be interpreted by the skilled and turned into a law, a crop rotation scheme or anything else.
Symbols are mysterious, and therefore hold a power which is unknown - but a definite power. The fewer who know how to interpret the symbols, the more more powerful are those who can interpret them.
The more intricate the symbol, the more power/information it can carry. Very subtle means there's the possibility for great variation. And the more effort goes into something, the better it is, the more powerful. If you have to kill a wolf to use its blood, you'll only make that symbol if you really mean it. The difficulty is a statemant in itself.

In the end, we are social animals, and statements of all kinds are given great importance. We might step on someone's toes, and we don't want that too much. Things we don't understand become all the more dire for it. The goat's head on a pole that the peasant sees erected on the edge of the forest is very portentous. Here's someone you don't understand, but they are intelligent, possibly territorial, rich enough to use a goat for this, whatever it is. And you don't know what they want or what they look like.

End of rambling, I think my supper's ready.

[awa]

keep in mind at one time in certain places literacy would be incredibly rare so it may have a degree of mystery that we as a largely literate society lack. Keep in mind when were talking about magical words they are rarely English its usually some obscure language.

[Yanagi]

How are magical seals and writings supposed to work? Have people ever come up with explaination why substances need to be arranged in specific patterns to have supernatural effects? Unless it's meant as a magical circuit board or container of magical energy, I don't see how it's supposed to be effective. But then, it wouldn't really be the patterns that are magical.

That is a very large question. I'm going to break off part.

Magic quite often involves taking the oddities of abstract philosophical thought and attributing actual, numinous power to them.

Take for example, the concept of True Names and/or Secret Names. To name something is to specify it, the separate the world into [Name] and [Everything Else]. Magic makes that semiotic trick literal: finding or assign the Name of a thing means that you've constrained the Named.

An alternate intuitive leap is invocation (O gods, etc)...which is a direct continuation of the general use of the invocative in conversation. Prayers, and epithet lists are further extrapolations that assume a kind of social intercourse is occurring. By addressing the being (or sometimes, the concept), you draw its attention. You've summoned it, or part of it--the nonlocal becomes localized; the diffuse, directed.

Writing and inscription in magic involve the same kind of leap from abstract to functional: word, image, or effigy constrain and localize a concept. In a literate society that seems mundane, but that basic semiotic concept--these five letters are a tiger, this doll is my mother--is actually pretty mind-boggling. In magic the metaphorical is connected to the actual: it's sympathy.

Numerology then adds an extra level of semiotic crazy in that number-ness is self defining: two-ness is defining by describing a set in which there are two things, and no other criteria. Yet two-ness and three-ness (and occasionally seven-ness) get ascribed qualities emanating from things that tend to occur in sets of two, three, and seven--so other things that come in sets of two, three, and seven are suddenly connected.

And then you get to geometric forms, which are liked the illegitimate child of numerology via absentee parent sympathetic magic. Any shape contains numbers--it's equation, its measurements--and they all can be shuffled and configured to create layered meanings.

(and we're not going to get into sacred calendars, which is like All of the Above, but Moreso)

Stuff like wards and sigils involve layering these elements according to a pseudo-logic to create "best" results. It's not as tidy as a circuit board. More like creating a program that has a bunch of processes that theoretically support each other.

In terms of "power source"--there's really not one answer. You get into conundrums like "this seals calls upon the Angels of the Four Directions to bind this devil to my will, but why does that seal compel the Angels?" The best answer I can give is that at some point, the act of naming/specifying/diagramming has weight and power unto itself.

[Frozen_Feet]

How are magical seals and writings supposed to work? Have people ever come up with explaination why substances need to be arranged in specific patterns to have supernatural effects? Unless it's meant as a magical circuit board or container of magical energy, I don't see how it's supposed to be effective. But then, it wouldn't really be the patterns that are magical.

There are many possible explanations, but one that has not yet come up is simple: the patterns work through sight. Seeing a certain pattern causes certain association in your mind, leading to effect.

This phenomenom actually exists in real life. Take a look at all the visual illusion possible through arranging colors and shapes correctly. You can create illusion of movement in a perfectly stationary picture, illusion of smaller shapes looking bigger than they are, illusion of depth on a flat plane, illusion of completely separate things being interconnected...

When you translate it to fantasy, you merely take the concept and run away with it to the point that seeing these things causes explicitly preternatural consequences.

[TuggyNE]

There are many possible explanations, but one that has not yet come up is simple: the patterns work through sight. Seeing a certain pattern causes certain association in your mind, leading to effect.

This phenomenom actually exists in real life. Take a look at all the visual illusion possible through arranging colors and shapes correctly. You can create illusion of movement in a perfectly stationary picture, illusion of smaller shapes looking bigger than they are, illusion of depth on a flat plane, illusion of completely separate things being interconnected...

When you translate it to fantasy, you merely take the concept and run away with it to the point that seeing these things causes explicitly preternatural consequences.

So Illusion (Phantasm) spells targeting various creatures and the universe itself are actually the core of all magic?!?

[Frozen_Feet]

Pretty much. Though in my setting, there are similar effects for all five senses - there is, for example, a sound that causes your mind to shatter.

Of course, none of these things affect things without proper senses, or if they are sufficiently obscured. One of the best defenses against sudden magical onslaught hence is closing your eyes, pinching your nose and shouting "I CAN'T HEAR YOU NANANANA" from the top of your lungs.

It's also a great way for explaining why some animals or, say, undead are resistant to certain forms of magic. Your basic runaway skeletal minion usually is a bit short on eyes, ears or a nose.

[avr]

Charles Stross' series the Atrocity Archives actually uses the patterns-as-circuit-boards. The bafflegab there is quite fun.

[Yora]

Assuming a decent dirt road, how much energy would you save by using a simple two-wheel cart or a full four-wheel to pull a load instead of carrying it on the back of a person or animal?

[hymer]

Well, you should never mount a horse that doesn't weigh at least three times your own body weight. So if we take that as the basis of how much a four-legger can carry, that's one thing. Combat soldiers are known to be able to tote close to their own body weight about. Let's call it 3/4.
Then we'll need some idea of how much you can load on a wagon and still pull it.
I've managed about three quarters of a ton by handpower regularly working in beverage-storage, so maybe I could manage 15 times my weight - but less, since the other thing was a flat concrete floor and modern wheels. Let's call it ten times at about 5 km/h. This might be setting it a bit high, but then some people are in better shape than me.
A horse can pull - and this is not at all certain - a wagon of three times its own weight with little to no trouble. It will do this at a considerably brisker pace than I could pull my big weight, and for much longer too. So one third to three times is about nine times. And the wagon tech these days is not a whole lot better than it was for these purposes.

So we're talking magnification of as much as ten times for weight for people. In the case of fourleggies it's probably a little less, but it comes with higher possible speed, as the pack horse can't run comfortably, while the draft horse can.

I wouldn't quote me on that, and maybe someone with some actual numbers will come along in a moment.

[Beleriphon]

The big thing to remember with wagons is that even on rough roads is that wheels make a huge difference. A single man in theory can pull a train engine, its just a matter of getting it moving. A team of four horses could easily pull up to two thousand pounds for a day.

General rule, after a cursory search, suggests a single horse can comfortably pull 1.5 times its own weight with a two wheeled cart (counting the cart's weight as well) and double its own weight with a four wheeled cart.

Rough terrain wont limit weight so much as how long a horse can function. Horses really are astonishingly strong creatures. The current world record for a horse pull is upwards of 24000 pounds.

If you're looking at a slow even pace oxen are the way to go. They can pull much heavier loads but aren't anywhere near as fast. Most of the horses pull power comes from its hindquarters while and ox pulls with each leg and each step. Oxen have the added benefit of being more docile than horses.

[Kalmageddon]

Hey folks, I need a bit of help for my latest campaign.
Basically the question is this. A colony is founded with 500 colonists, all in their mid-twenties, 50 years later I need to figure out how much the population has realistically grown.
Suppose mortality and average life span comparable to that of a today's first world country and that there are a lot of incentives to make babies.

[hamishspence]

The big thing to remember with wagons is that even on rough roads is that wheels make a huge difference. A single man in theory can pull a train engine, its just a matter of getting it moving. A team of four horses could easily pull up to two thousand pounds for a day.

General rule, after a cursory search, suggests a single horse can comfortably pull 1.5 times its own weight with a two wheeled cart (counting the cart's weight as well) and double its own weight with a four wheeled cart.

Using the pulling rules in Arms & Equipment Guide (an animal can pull 4 times its Load at the given speed) that would put a single Heavy Horse as capable of pulling 2400 lb as a heavy load (800 lb or less as a light load).

a Heavy Warhorse could manage 3600 lb as a heavy load and 1200 lb or less as a light load.

A Light Horse could manage 1800 lb as a heavy load and 600 lb or less as a light load.

4 Light horses could manage 2400 lb as a light load- that fits with "easily pull up to 2 thousand pounds for a day".

[headwarpage]

Hey folks, I need a bit of help for my latest campaign.
Basically the question is this. A colony is founded with 500 colonists, all in their mid-twenties, 50 years later I need to figure out how much the population has realistically grown.
Suppose mortality and average life span comparable to that of a today's first world country and that there are a lot of incentives to make babies.

Several questions before I try an answer on this:
1) What's your starting sex ratio? If you start out with something like a 4:1 female to male ratio, you'll get a lot more kids faster.
2) What are the conditions this colony exists in? Even with a lot of incentives to reproduce, you'll get fewer kids if simple survival is difficult. Unless you have near-unlimited resources, the burden of feeding and caring for small children, expanding housing/farming areas, and so on is going to be a limiting factor in how fast the population can grow.
3) Related to the previous question, is this a theoretical question (in which case it's just a math problem), or are we imagining an actual colony trying to eke out a living?
4) Any objection to future generations starting young? If your second generation starts as soon as the first one hits puberty (or just a few years after), you'll grow a lot faster than if you wait until they're in their twenties.

[Jeff the Green]

Hey folks, I need a bit of help for my latest campaign.
Basically the question is this. A colony is founded with 500 colonists, all in their mid-twenties, 50 years later I need to figure out how much the population has realistically grown.
Suppose mortality and average life span comparable to that of a today's first world country and that there are a lot of incentives to make babies.

Population growth can be described by the logistic function P(t) = (K*P0*e^(r*t))/(K+P0(e^(r*t)-1)) where P(t) is the population at time t, P0 is the population at time 0, K is the environment's carrying capacity, and r is the intrinsic rate of growth. The population will increase at a rate equal to r until the population approaches K, at which point the population growth rate slows down. So you need to figure out K for your environment and r for humans. One of the sources I found suggests that r is around 18 per thousand for the world right now. You can adjust that up or down as needed.

Assuming a K of 1,000,000 (effectively unlimited, for what you're asking) and an r of 40 per 1,000 (much higher than the world right now, but probably not too high), I got a P(50) of about 3580 (most of those will, obviously, be children or young adults)

[Yora]

Or you could just eyeball it. Assuming modern standards of living and really great incentives to have kids, let's put the birth rate at 3 children per women. That's more than double what you have in current highly industrialized countries.
500 in Generation P means 750 in Generation K1. Since the Ps are nw in their 70s, we can assume almost all are still alive. The K1s are now age 35 to 45, so they probably mostly had their 3 kids as well, making 875 in K2. The oldest K2s are just reaching 20, so assuming really good incentives to have kids very early, let's give them 1 kid per woman, or 435 in K3.

500+750+875+435 = 2560

Which isn't too much different from Jeffs calculation.

Now of course people are entering old age and it will probably be just another generation until they start dying of old age, significantly decreasing the growth rate. But with more than 2 births per woman, you still have a population pyramid with growth keeping going .

[bbgenderless100]

The MST3K Mantra: "It's just a show; I should really just relax."

But that's no reason to just make stuff up without giving any thought to how elements of a setting are supposed to work. They don't need to work exactly as in nature, but to many creators it is desirable to stick to nature for as long as it works and only starting to come up with entirely fictional explainations when it becomes actually neccessary. That way things appear more natural and can stand up under a closer second or even third look.

That's what this thread is for. Sharing knowledge on how things actually without needing to resort to "it's magic". Since this is not only relevant to people who are actually making up entire worlds or creating new creatures, but also to common GMs making adventures for their own groups, I think it's best to put it here in the General RPG-Forum and not put it far away out of sight in the Worldbuilding-Forum.
If you have a better title for this thread in mind, let me know and it can be changed.

If you have a question regarding military technology and tactics, there's the Real World Weapons or Armour Questions Thread. There's a lot of experts on these things, who can help you out with almost anything on this subject. For everything else, like animal biology, cave formation, agriculture, government systems, architecture, industry, or whatever else you can think of that might be relevant to making your campaigns realistic, or at least plausible, this thread is the place to go.
I would suggest to not have discussions about electronics, robotics, and space travel, because I think they have a tendency to grow into very big debates that might overshadow more minor questions that would fall to the side. The Media Discussions forum usually has very interesting threads on such subjects and I think you'll get very good answers to questions regarding these subject there.

Another suggestion is to highlight if you have a new question, so they don't get missed when they are posted in the middle of a larger discussion on something else.
And here's my start:

Question: Are there actual cases of green flames comming from the ground? I think it looks quite cool, but do things like that actually exist? The only thing remotely similar that I know is the Door to Hell in Turmenistan, which is a collapsed methane drilling project that was ignited to prevent the gas from mixing with the atmosphere. However, it is a man made gas leak, consist of only a single hole, and burns red.
Is it possible to have small green flames sprad over a large area?

Perhaps but perhaps not who knows really.

[Kalmageddon]

Or you could just eyeball it. Assuming modern standards of living and really great incentives to have kids, let's put the birth rate at 3 children per women. That's more than double what you have in current highly industrialized countries.
500 in Generation P means 750 in Generation K1. Since the Ps are nw in their 70s, we can assume almost all are still alive. The K1s are now age 35 to 45, so they probably mostly had their 3 kids as well, making 875 in K2. The oldest K2s are just reaching 20, so assuming really good incentives to have kids very early, let's give them 1 kid per woman, or 435 in K3.

500+750+875+435 = 2560

Which isn't too much different from Jeffs calculation.

Now of course people are entering old age and it will probably be just another generation until they start dying of old age, significantly decreasing the growth rate. But with more than 2 births per woman, you still have a population pyramid with growth keeping going .

This sounds about right, I didn't need a precise number, just a scale that could withstand a superficial analysis so that it doesn't strain the suspension of disbelief of my most analytic players, but as with all sci-fi writers (which I am for the purpose of this campaign) I have a really bad sense of scale...
Thanks a lot!

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Questions:

1. How can one balance free will and destiny? As in how can both exist?

2. What commonly dictates destiny in a setting? Deities? Time? Something?

[hymer]

1: By nobody knowing for sure exactly what's going to happen and when, I guess.
2: Sometimes deities are under destiny (thinking here of the Norse pantheon in particular), sometimes they make destiny as they go along, and sometimes they've already made it up and now they're kinda sitting back. Pick what you want.

[JCarter426]

How can one balance free will and destiny? As in how can both exist?

Have destiny determine what conflicts are inevitable and maybe who will be involved, but not the outcome or who will pick which side.

[Jeff the Green]

Questions:

1. How can one balance free will and destiny? As in how can both exist?

2. What commonly dictates destiny in a setting? Deities? Time? Something?

1. Compatibilist free will.

2. Deity. Physics. Fate itself (c.f. fate in the Iliad). Fate personified.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Have destiny determine what conflicts are inevitable and maybe who will be involved, but not the outcome or who will pick which side.

Ah yes, but wouldn't those events change when the choice was made for an earlier one? And if they didn't change, then was it really a choice?

1. Compatibilist free will.

2. Deity. Physics. Fate itself (c.f. fate in the Iliad). Fate personified.

What are some examples where Physics dictates destiny? This is close to the idea I had so it would be interesting to see where they came.

[JCarter426]

Ah yes, but wouldn't those events change when the choice was made for an earlier one? And if they didn't change, then was it really a choice?

Yes, well, then you have two options. Either you go with broad strokes with narrow resolution, or you go with complicated branching threads of destiny.