Random Worldbuilding Questions (Biology, Geography, Society, etc.)

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Interesting...so if I'd felt the water underground, i'd feel pressure and cold on the bottom of my feet?

[TheStranger]

Interesting...so if I'd felt the water underground, i'd feel pressure and cold on the bottom of my feet?

Yes, if you were barefoot. And, in some hard-to-explain way, the pressure aspect of it would be different from the purely physical feeling of simply standing on the ground (though it would be similar - the sensations we associate with mundane things are often crude approximations of their metaphysical natures). If you were wearing shoes, you would feel the cold and pressure, but more faintly; you'd primarily feel whatever elements made up your footwear.

Obviously, you'd be feeling a lot of different metaphysical sensations at any given time. The ability to detect these things at all is what makes you an elementalist. The ability to filter out and interpret the things you're interested in with minute detail is what makes you a master.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Hmmm...would it matter if certain members of this race could only attune to one or two elements at most in your idea, or would everyone in the race be able to sense all the elements?

[TheStranger]

It could work either way. (I hadn't been thinking of it as a separate race rather than just people with a trained or inborn talent, but that would work either way as well.) You'd still have a full suite of mundane senses, so it's not like you'd be handicapped if you could only sense Air, for instance. You'd be limited in some ways compared to somebody who could sense more elements, but not as much as you'd think at first.

To use your example of underground water, somebody who could sense Water but not Earth would still feel the presence of the water. Somebody who could sense Earth but not Water would still feel that the earth was slightly less solid. With practice, both of those people could interpret those sensations as indicating underground water and pinpoint its location, and both of those people could use their element to access that water. The Water user would draw the water up through the earth, and the Earth user would compress the earth around the water, forcing it up. Somebody attuned to both elements would be able to do more, and do it more efficiently, but the single-element users would still be capable.

As an aside, I think you probably have at least three components of ability for your elementalists, which could be independent or linked. First is raw strength; which of two Earth-attuned users can move more dirt? Second is sensitivity; which user can more accurately interpret what they're sensing to pinpoint that underground water, or sense smaller amounts? Third is precision; when it comes to actually manipulating the element(s), which user has finer control? Also, creativity and intelligence aren't directly related to "casting" ability, but they're important. Since you can do a lot of things with elements, finding clever or innovative techniques makes a big difference.

[Jeff the Green]

Yes, if you were barefoot. And, in some hard-to-explain way, the pressure aspect of it would be different from the purely physical feeling of simply standing on the ground (though it would be similar - the sensations we associate with mundane things are often crude approximations of their metaphysical natures). If you were wearing shoes, you would feel the cold and pressure, but more faintly; you'd primarily feel whatever elements made up your footwear.

Obviously, you'd be feeling a lot of different metaphysical sensations at any given time. The ability to detect these things at all is what makes you an elementalist. The ability to filter out and interpret the things you're interested in with minute detail is what makes you a master.

This creates the interesting situation where the best way to figure out if there's water underground is to lay spreadeagled on the grass, naked.

[TheStranger]

This creates the interesting situation where the best way to figure out if there's water underground is to lay spreadeagled on the grass, naked.

That's not a bug, it's a feature.

[hymer]

@ fusilier: More good points. And I don't doubt that one central base of operations is what I'm likely to see. In the Roman case, however, once they got around to being a naval power and vast empire, they had several fleets stationed at various places. One on each side of the Italian peninsula (these also served as reserve for losses incurred to other fleets), and then fleets in various critical places, like Egypt (to keep the corn supply open) or around the Channel (because you couldn't hold on to an island without fleet support).
I don't think we disagree so much. In galleys, the main expense comes down to the rowers, because there are so many of them to each ship, and they must be maintained both in training year round and logistics wherever they go.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

That's not a bug, it's a feature.

Hahaha. Indeed. My only fear for this system is that since the elements represent all solids, liquids, gases, and plasma...things would get overwhelming real quick this way.

Also! Anyone is welcome to chime in with ideas of their own.

[TheStranger]

Hahaha. Indeed. My only fear for this system is that since the elements represent all solids, liquids, gases, and plasma...things would get overwhelming real quick this way.

I think that's an issue with any "passive" mechanism for sensing elements. But I don't think it's any worse than the constant barrage of sensory input we deal with on a daily basis. I mean, think about the amount of light and sound and physical sensation around you right now. If you actively focused on every single input all the time, you'd go crazy. But you mostly tune out the background input unless something unusual happens, and you can focus in on anything you want to perceive at any given time. If you have a separate race that's attuned to the elements, they may even have a whole section of the brain that's adapted to process this input, the same way humans have a lot of ability to process visual input or dogs can process scents.

Or if attuning can be learned, you could play up the overwhelming sensory input and have some percentage of people go crazy when they first attune (may not be appropriate for PCs). If there's an order of elementalists, they could have the elemental equivalent of Faraday cages where they help students adjust to the new inputs, or they could just deal with the overwhelmed students via institutionalization or euthanasia. Or they could "lobotomize" failed students, burning out their ability to attune and allowing them to return to a normal life except - except that they're no longer able to [redacted].

Bottom line, handwaving it away doesn't seem unreasonable. Or you could let it be a real issue, and use it to add flavor to your setting.

(Or you could not use this system. It's your setting, and this was just the first thing that came to mind. I'm just trying to explain how my idea might work, not argue that you need to use it.)

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I think that's an issue with any "passive" mechanism for sensing elements. But I don't think it's any worse than the constant barrage of sensory input we deal with on a daily basis. I mean, think about the amount of light and sound and physical sensation around you right now. If you actively focused on every single input all the time, you'd go crazy. But you mostly tune out the background input unless something unusual happens, and you can focus in on anything you want to perceive at any given time. If you have a separate race that's attuned to the elements, they may even have a whole section of the brain that's adapted to process this input, the same way humans have a lot of ability to process visual input or dogs can process scents.

These are all good points, and something I'll have to think about if I end up using this. It seems to bring a lot of ideas together from some of my brainstorming.

Or if attuning can be learned, you could play up the overwhelming sensory input and have some percentage of people go crazy when they first attune (may not be appropriate for PCs). If there's an order of elementalists, they could have the elemental equivalent of Faraday cages where they help students adjust to the new inputs, or they could just deal with the overwhelmed students via institutionalization or euthanasia. Or they could "lobotomize" failed students, burning out their ability to attune and allowing them to return to a normal life except - except that they're no longer able to [redacted].

Bottom line, handwaving it away doesn't seem unreasonable. Or you could let it be a real issue, and use it to add flavor to your setting.

It is something that everyone within a specific race can do, but it is learned from the ground up. The members of the race can choose which element they attune to, so perhaps there is a certain background sensation that becomes hieghtened as they attune to one element, or multiple elements if I choose for them to be able to attune to more than one (still in the works). Sensing the element is certainly going to affect how the race manipulates the element, and how much and how far they are limited by.

(Or you could not use this system. It's your setting, and this was just the first thing that came to mind. I'm just trying to explain how my idea might work, not argue that you need to use it.)

I'm still keeping it on the table. I might have to shimmy it around a bit to make it fit, but I like the basic premise. I ask questions to feel out the idea, not because I'm doubtful. Just me thinking objectively. Thank you for your input! (and if you'd like to look over what I have so far, the thread is in my signature as my "current project".)

[TheStranger]

It is something that everyone within a specific race can do, but it is learned from the ground up. The members of the race can choose which element they attune to, so perhaps there is a certain background sensation that becomes hieghtened as they attune to one element, or multiple elements if I choose for them to be able to attune to more than one (still in the works). Sensing the element is certainly going to affect how the race manipulates the element, and how much and how far they are limited by.

If everybody in the race can do it, I'd lean towards processing the extra input being normal for them, or at least something that can be adapted to easily. The background sensation idea sounds good.

Depending on the theme you're going for, you could have an affinity for one or more elements be inborn, which would tend to invoke destiny or predetermination. Or you could have it be a matter of personal choice, which would invoke free will or mastery of fate. Although if it's a choice, you'd have to justify why every member of the race chooses to attune at all.

If it is a choice though, I would suggest that the reason you can only attune to one (or maybe two) elements would be the degree of mental gymnastics required. To attune to Fire is to alter something inside yourself. It's not just a matter of knowledge and skill; you have to really align yourself with the element at a fundamental level (though it need not involve a "fiery" personality - that cliche is played out). Since each element is so different, only a few exceptional individuals (if any) are able to manage that for two elements at the same time, possibly at the expense of attuning less strongly (switching elements entirely might be possible, but difficult).

[Yora]

In what order of clerical hierarchy would you rank acolytes, initiates, and novices?

[Jeff the Green]

In what order of clerical hierarchy would you rank acolytes, initiates, and novices?

I wouldn't; they're in entirely different categories. An acolyte is a lay minister (i.e. performs religious duties but isn't ordained, like an altar boy), an initiate is someone that's become a lay person in a mystery religion, and novice is the lowest rank in a cloistered order.

[TheStranger]

In what order of clerical hierarchy would you rank acolytes, initiates, and novices?

I wouldn't; they're in entirely different categories. An acolyte is a lay minister (i.e. performs religious duties but isn't ordained, like an altar boy), an initiate is someone that's become a lay person in a mystery religion, and novice is the lowest rank in a cloistered order.

I think Jeff is right; the terms refer to different things. That said, you could probably incorporate them into a single clerical order without deviating too far from the original meanings. I would use acolyte for somebody like an altar boy, so they would be the lowest; they're performing ceremonial duties, but they haven't formally entered the order (and may never). So they would be unranked, more than lowest. Novice could be the lowest rank within the order, and initiate would be reserved for those who have earned access to higher mysteries.

If you want your acolytes to be a rank within the order rather than just altar boys, that would probably make novice the lowest rank (almost by definition). An acolyte is, broadly, a ceremonial attendant, so they probably wouldn't rank at the top of a hierarchy, but could conceivably be an intermediate rank if the function of "altar boy" was reserved for ranking clerics who had earned some measure of responsibility (perhaps because the novices are too busy scrubbing floors and learning to read). An initiate implies having crossed some threshold of initiation. It could be a catchall term for several ranks, but I think it could also be an individual rank - probably higher than acolyte, but you could justify lower depending on the specific traditions of your order.

[Beleriphon]

I'd suggest all novices start as acolytes, but not all acolytes become novices. To upper tier members they'd probably be the same thing for most purposes, but a novice has taken an oath or chosen to pursue the order's teachings beyond just learning them and believing in them.

Its kind of like every Catholic priest starts as a catholic parishioner and goes to seminary school, but not every single Catholic parishioner goes to seminary school and becomes a priest.

[Yora]

I think that makes sense and tend to follow in that direction.

An acolyte is not a priest, while a novice is trying to become one.

[Weirdlet]

Would it be theoretically possible to hollow a ship out of a single, enormous tree? Would this be in any way a good idea, producing a sound or functional ship?

This question comes from a throw-away thought regarding something PCs would see in passing, indicating that the folks on this ship come from someplace with enormous, ancient forest the likes of which haven't been seen in the known world. I like the story implication, but want to follow through the logical implications with regards to ship-building.

[hymer]

Up to a certain size, yes. This was a stone age manner of boat-making, hollowing out an oak tree. It didn't make for a very good boat compared to later methods, but it was a place to start.
I'm afraid I don't know where the size becomes too big to make sense.

[Spiryt]

Dugout boats were used long, long after stone age, and they didn't necessarily have to be primitive and poor ships.

Kossack 'czajkas' were often mostly dugouts structurally, and they raided Istanbul, Crimea, Anatolia and so on them.

Byzantine sources mention that Slavic dugouts could sometimes board up to 70 men.

So yeah, huge dugout boat should be feasible. Even if it wasn't very practical anymore, it should at least allow one to float for some time...

[TheStranger]

Would it be theoretically possible to hollow a ship out of a single, enormous tree? Would this be in any way a good idea, producing a sound or functional ship?

This question comes from a throw-away thought regarding something PCs would see in passing, indicating that the folks on this ship come from someplace with enormous, ancient forest the likes of which haven't been seen in the known world. I like the story implication, but want to follow through the logical implications with regards to ship-building.

Are you imagining something akin to hollowing out a giant redwood tree (or something even bigger)? If so, that should be possible, with several caveats. First, the finished product would be heavy as all heck. With a dugout, you're probably looking at a much thicker hull than a regular ship, so you've got a lot more wood there. Second, you'd need a giant tree that didn't have too many knots in it, and didn't warp and crack too much as it aged - otherwise you'd start leaking. Third, it would be a lot of work, and you'd waste a lot of wood doing it that way. If you're taking the time to cut down a tree that big, burning/cutting 90% of it away is pretty labor-intensive and not a tremendously efficient use of the resource. Although if you cut it out rather than burning, you could use what you removed for firewood or something. Finally, and somewhat paradoxically, your finished ship might be less structurally sound than one built in a more traditional manner. Since the grain would be running in the same direction through the whole ship, it could be surprisingly weak to impacts from the right direction.

All that said, there's no reason you couldn't hollow something ship-shaped out of a tree if you were willing to take the time. And there's no reason it wouldn't float. But in terms of what you're getting for the labor you're putting in, I'm not sure it's the best way to go about it.

[Weirdlet]

Okay, that clarifies it nicely! Thank you!

[Yora]

I found this on youtube:

Lecture Series on the Early Middle Ages (284-1000)

I'm only through the first quarter so far where it's still about the end of the Roman empire, but I think it's really quite good.
It's actually a regular history class recorded at Yale University, and they didn't edit out the first 15 minute where he talks about registering for the exams and homeworks asignments and the like (exactly the same things we have in every class at German universities at the beginning of every semester ), but you can skip that part and start at the 20 minute mark or so, where the actual history lecture starts. It seems to be a beginner level class, so just having some basic knowledge about the Roman Empire and medieval Europe is completely sufficient to understand what's being said.
It's basically a History Audio Book.

[Yora]

It just occured to me, that at least in Europe, there are many cases of large dogs being associated with death.
But somehow this seems to be an image that has completely vanished in contemporary times, basically an extinct meme.

Does anyone know if there's some ancient common origin for that, or is it just coincidence?

The oldest example I could think of is Anubis, the jackal headed egyptian god, who was the chief administrator in charge of seeing the souls of the dead getting to their correct afterlife.

[Mr. Mask]

People rarely get eaten by wolves these days, or lose their livestock to wild dogs.

The way dogs eat and kill their prey, and the carcasses they leave... I can see why they'd get a bad rap. Especially with the kinds which are known for turning on their own wounded, or fighting amongst themselves when they lose their leader.

There might be some other reason, but associating your main predator with death seems reasonable.

[fusilier]

Many dogs are carrion eaters -- so maybe that has something to do with it?

[Mr. Mask]

That'd be a large part of it too, I expect. I wonder if there's much association with other carrion eaters, like crows, with death.

[Gnoman]

Traditionally, crows and ravens are psychopomps, spirits with the responsibility of escorting the souls of the dead to the afterlife.

[Beleriphon]

The oldest example I could think of is Anubis, the jackal headed egyptian god, who was the chief administrator in charge of seeing the souls of the dead getting to their correct afterlife.

Anubis is the god of the dead (or rather a psychopomp) because jackals do eat the dead. The association is fairly obvious once that becomes clear. That being said Anubis' head is a black jackal because black is the colour of corpse, actual jackals are sand coloured.

[Yora]

Crows are harbingers of death, because they are smart and easily learn that marching armies tend to leave corpses to eat in their wake. The same as seagulls following fishing boats.

---

Lecutre Series on Roman Architecture Learning something about city building in antiquity.

[TheStranger]

Also, I'm going to assume it's not an accident that a group of crows is called a murder. A group of ravens is merely called an unkindness, however.