DC superhero "coming out"

[Zevox]

Or, you know, not have Jade and Obsidian be his kids because he's, you know, not even technically a super hero right now continuity-wise. He's still just a newsman.

I said that, you realize.

Though I suppose they could always retcon Jade and Obsidian's parentage as well if they want to.

Zevox

[Tyndmyr]

Does watchmen count? Yes, they have the same silly costumes, but from what I've heard it's not about people doing nothing over 20 pages for 50 years.

They're very different from standard superheroes in style, and to be honest, so are most of the others listed. Irredeemable is basically what would happen if DC-styled superpowers existed in the real world. For instance...superman's superhearing results in always, constantly, hearing the screams of everyone he didn't save, and exploring the consequences of such powers. The storyline is pretty much nothing like a traditional comic.

Likewise, Walking Dead gleefully kills off main chars, and is...not really superhero-based at all. Pratchett couldn't be further from DC/Marvel.

Widening Gyre is more standard, but it's still an inclusive story, with distinctive ending and the like...ditto another excellent option, Kingdom Come.

In short, I love the graphic novel format for telling a wonderful story. I have no love whatsoever for "yet another episode of the same old meaningless crap". I kind of hate all the continuity reboots. I do not need to read another marginally different origin story for superman or whatever.

[Man on Fire]

They're very different from standard superheroes in style, and to be honest, so are most of the others listed. Irredeemable is basically what would happen if DC-styled superpowers existed in the real world. For instance...superman's superhearing results in always, constantly, hearing the screams of everyone he didn't save, and exploring the consequences of such powers. The storyline is pretty much nothing like a traditional comic.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that they are superhero comics. Black Company does things very differently from Eragorn. Doesn't change the fact that they both are fantasy. If we will scratch out every comics that doesn't fit very narrowed definition then we will be left with nothing but the most generic manure.

Oh, and another comics that did handled serious topics well - original Suicide Squad. Man, this thing has some pretty sweet issues.

[Ravens_cry]

They happened in the nineties. Fandom is full of silver-age nostalgic people for whose everything published in the nineties needs to be burned in forgotten (while in reality, nineties had many good comics, it's just that manure was getting more spotlight)

I think it is more the nature of the manure.
Silver Age may have been patently ridiculous, but at least its heroes were heroic.
Iron Age tried to be mature, but ended up merely 'adult'.

[Axolotl]

They happened in the nineties. Fandom is full of silver-age nostalgic people for whose everything published in the nineties needs to be burned in forgotten (while in reality, nineties had many good comics, it's just that manure was getting more spotlight)

I never really got that, I mean I get that Liefeld and his crew sucked but overall I think the nineties were probably the best decade for American comics ever. But for some reason everyone seems to hate it.

[Man on Fire]

I think it is more the nature of the manure.
Silver Age may have been patently ridiculous, but at least its heroes were heroic.
Iron Age tried to be mature, but ended up merely 'adult'.

Manure is still manure. It doesn't matter if the story is about murderous bastards who calls themselves heroes, that makes you feel disgust or about completely idiotic plot of Lois Lane to make Superman marry her, that makes you feel dumber by every page, bad story is still a bad story.

I never really got that, I mean I get that Liefeld and his crew sucked but overall I think the nineties were probably the best decade for American comics ever. But for some reason everyone seems to hate it.

I wouldn't call it the best, it was the time when Marvel almost bancrupted and Comics Crash happened, but there was a lot of good stuff published then.

[Ravens_cry]

Manure is still manure. It doesn't matter if the story is about murderous bastards who calls themselves heroes, that makes you feel disgust or about completely idiotic plot of Lois Lane to make Superman marry her, that makes you feel dumber by every page, bad story is still a bad story.

Of course, but you seem to forget there was something between the Silver Age and the Dark Age, the Bronze Age where comics, however clumsily many attempts may have been, tried to be more socially aware.
Personally, I prefer some silliness and joy to "Grrr, we be so grown up, look at all the blood and boobs!"
As C.S. Lewis put it well, "When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."

[Man on Fire]

Of course, but you seem to forget there was something between the Silver Age and the Dark Age, the Bronze Age where comics, however clumsily many attempts may have been, tried to be more socially aware.
Personally, I prefer some silliness and joy to "Grrr, we be so grown up, look at all the blood and boobs!"
As C.S. Lewis put it well, "When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."

You don't have to tell me any of that, Bronze Age had some of the best stuff and I see where you're coming from with that silly thing, but, as I said, for me it doesn't matter if the story is silly or dark, as long as it's good. I love Nextwave and I love Black Summer and a lot of stuff from both ends of the scale. And I do understand why people dislike some of bad dark stories, like whatever Mark Millar is doing right now, but I won't say that Ultimatum is automatically worse than, I don't know, Marville, just because it's dark and brutal murder fest while Marville is a comedy. What I really have an issue with are people who thinks that tone may decide of the quality and it is this false dichotomy that prevails in fandom - you either like funny stories and hate dark ones or vice-versa, that's just bullmanure. For me the only important thing is quality. You just see me going in defense of dark stories more often because that part of fandom who hates them is much more vocal.

[Axolotl]

I wouldn't call it the best, it was the time when Marvel almost bancrupted and Comics Crash happened, but there was a lot of good stuff published then.

It not just alot of good stuff, most of the really great comics like Sandman, Invisibles and Transmetropolitan had most of their runs or their start in the 90's.

[TheEmerged]

Zevox - they don't need to retcon their parentage.

Unless they've appeared in one of the books I'm not reading (certainly a possibility), they don't exist right now in the new continuity.

I didn't mean it as a snark if it came across that way. I was just saying it's not even going to require a retcon.

[Zevox]

Zevox - they don't need to retcon their parentage.

Unless they've appeared in one of the books I'm not reading (certainly a possibility), they don't exist right now in the new continuity.

I didn't mean it as a snark if it came across that way. I was just saying it's not even going to require a retcon.

I was using "retcon" to refer to changes made due to the reboot. Since a reboot is just one massive retcon itself and all. So basically, we're referring to the same thing, just using different terms.

Zevox

[Ravens_cry]

It not just alot of good stuff, most of the really great comics like Sandman, Invisibles and Transmetropolitan had most of their runs or their start in the 90's.

Does Sandman count as a 'superhero' comic? It's more surreal fantasy, though there has been occasional crossovers with more conventional series. I haven't read either the Invisibles or Transmetropolitan, but they also don't seem like the typical Dark Ages offerings from what I have read on them.

[Man on Fire]

Does Sandman count as a 'superhero' comic? It's more surreal fantasy, though there has been occasional crossovers with more conventional series. I haven't read either the Invisibles or Transmetropolitan, but they also don't seem like the typical Dark Ages offerings from what I have read on them.

Invisibles and Transmetropolitan are hardly superhero and Sandman is...Sandman. He is really only counted into superhero by his relation to the name and making cameos here and there. However, I think his point was rather that there were good comics published during dark age so it was good time for comics in general

Lets run some good superhero comics from the 90s:

Peter David's runs on Hulk, Aquaman, Supergirl and Young Justice
The Infinity Gauntlet
Spider-Man: Death of Jean DeWolff
Todd McFarlane's Spider-Man and Spawn
Thunderbolts
Joe Kelly's Deadpool
Aztek
Morrison's JLA, most of his Doom Patrol, Flex Mentallo and with Millar Aztek and Flash and Swamp Thing
Mark Waid's Flash, Kingdom Come, Impluse, Legion of Superheroes, Underworld Unleashed
Warren Ellis' Stormwatch and The Authority. Planetary one of the best comics I ever read, started in 1999
Mike Mingola's Hellboy
Frank Miller's Batman: Year One
Alan Moore's Supreme, Youngblood: Judgment Day
James Robbinson's Starman
Age of Apocalypse
Knightfall
Death of Superman

[Ravens_cry]

It must have taken some doing for even Alan Moore to make Youngblood *shudder* good.

[Man on Fire]

It must have taken some doing for even Alan Moore to make Youngblood *shudder* good.

It's a pretty enjoyable story, Moore later tried to turn Youngblood into his own version of Teen Titans, but Liefield's company bancrupted before he could write more than few issues.

[Soras Teva Gee]

It must have taken some doing for even Alan Moore to make Youngblood *shudder* good.

Are you doubting the powers of the All-Beard?

[Man on Fire]

Are you doubting the powers of the All-Beard?

Remember that nobody is perfect - even Alan Moore had written some weaker comics (Violator vs Badrock anyone?).

[Soras Teva Gee]

Remember that nobody is perfect - even Alan Moore had written some weaker comics (Violator vs Badrock anyone?).

Well I've read Lost Girls and even that level of writing would be major improvement for Youngblood

[Axolotl]

Well I've read Lost Girls and even that level of writing would be major improvement for Youngblood

Modern day Frank Miller would be an improvement for early Youngblood.

In fact any attempt to just write a story as a story instead of just something to tie together group shots and splash panels would be an improvement.

[Man on Fire]

I heard that Joe Casey has decent run on Younblood some time ago. On the other hand, right after he left, first thing Liefeld did was this:

Spoiler

Show

[Maxios]

...is that who I think it is ?

[Man on Fire]

...is that who I think it is ?

If you're thinking about somebody whose name starts with "Barack" and ends with "Obama", then yes.

[Ravens_cry]

If you're thinking about somebody whose name starts with "Barack" and ends with "Obama", then yes.

Really? He looks nothing like him. Sure, he's black with short hair, but the present POTUS looks nothing like that.
Of course, it's Liefeld, the man can't draw Bart Simpson right.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Modern day Frank Miller would be an improvement for early Youngblood.

In fact any attempt to just write a story as a story instead of just something to tie together group shots and splash panels would be an improvement.

Careful you are dangerously close to the the ultimate nightmare. For it said that when the upper races gather to tell ghost stories you can hear if you are lucky the most horrible tale in all the multiverse. Deep within the Silver City there is a vault locked by the Living Tribunal himself drawing on all the powers of Source. None know for sure what is inside but it is said that Galactus fears it more then hunger and the Phantom Stranger prays his wandering will end an eternity before it sees the light of day. Once when the universe was young the Guardians of the Universe managed an expedition that is said to have drawn near the vault, afterward all record of it was burned from the pages of the Book of Oa with the Ultimate Nullifier. Still fragments of fragments of its knowledge can be found if you are foolish enough to work.

Seeking them can turn a halfway decent writer into a talentless hack. They have created Red Hulk, Emoboy Prime, Superman Red and Blue, and that League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie have a fragment of the horror inside them. One fragment turned Jeph Loeb from an almost decent writer to a talentless hack. A bad Chaos spell exsposed Grant Morrison to one and led him to conclude Magneto was a "mad old terrorist ****" thus birthing Xorneto. It is why Stan Lee is a household name and Jack Kirby is not, why Superman's rights were sold for a $130. It is why Joe Quesada gets promoted. The truth though is more horrible then all of this:

Spoiler

Show

In a time no one is quite sure, it has been wiped from time by the upper powers, but some say the darkest pit of the 90s others say it timing must match that of One More Day and was the sole reason that evil was allowed so that not none would suspect a worse.

Yet in this place removed from time and space Rob Liefeld and Frank Miller met in a dirty hotel-room above a con in some lesser city. One might suppose they were drunk but it is said they were stone sober. They set out to produce the worst comic ever, and things went horribly right.

This nameless comic is so horrible it is beyond good and evil, hope and despair, life and anti-life.... the Anti-Story.

None are quite sure if this is what drove Miller mad or arose from it. Liefeld seemed not the worse for wear at least though it is hard to tell. Some say the comic is drawn upon the the skin of a demon and inked in the blood of a dead fertility god. Others say it is just a script written on a hotel towel and preliminary art drawn on napkins. None say it is colored for the attempt killed all who tried.

Whatever its form the horror that was unleashed transcended its form striking all the planes and realities. Should this nameless comic ever be released it shall become a self-assembling hyper-text, it will be published and it will be sold. And it will sell well. Yet it will not remain one horrific story, for after it is sold then all of Story will begin to die, consumed in a black abyss from which there can be no escape. For attached to the text is a mandatory contract that only deepens the horror....

... its a movie deal. Jon Peters will produce, Michael Bay and Joel Schumacher are named as co-directors. Budget will be unlimited. It cannot be stopped.

[Man on Fire]

Careful you are dangerously close to the the ultimate nightmare. For it said that when the upper races gather to tell ghost stories you can hear if you are lucky the most horrible tale in all the multiverse. Deep within the Silver City there is a vault locked by the Living Tribunal himself drawing on all the powers of Source. None know for sure what is inside but it is said that Galactus fears it more then hunger and the Phantom Stranger prays his wandering will end an eternity before it sees the light of day. Once when the universe was young the Guardians of the Universe managed an expedition that is said to have drawn near the vault, afterward all record of it was burned from the pages of the Book of Oa with the Ultimate Nullifier. Still fragments of fragments of its knowledge can be found if you are foolish enough to work.

Seeking them can turn a halfway decent writer into a talentless hack. They have created Red Hulk, Emoboy Prime, Superman Red and Blue, and that League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie have a fragment of the horror inside them. One fragment turned Jeph Loeb from an almost decent writer to a talentless hack. A bad Chaos spell exsposed Grant Morrison to one and led him to conclude Magneto was a "mad old terrorist ****" thus birthing Xorneto. It is why Stan Lee is a household name and Jack Kirby is not, why Superman's rights were sold for a $130. It is why Joe Quesada gets promoted. The truth though is more horrible then all of this:

Spoiler

Show

In a time no one is quite sure, it has been wiped from time by the upper powers, but some say the darkest pit of the 90s others say it timing must match that of One More Day and was the sole reason that evil was allowed so that not none would suspect a worse.

Yet in this place removed from time and space Rob Liefeld and Frank Miller met in a dirty hotel-room above a con in some lesser city. One might suppose they were drunk but it is said they were stone sober. They set out to produce the worst comic ever, and things went horribly right.

This nameless comic is so horrible it is beyond good and evil, hope and despair, life and anti-life.... the Anti-Story.

None are quite sure if this is what drove Miller mad or arose from it. Liefeld seemed not the worse for wear at least though it is hard to tell. Some say the comic is drawn upon the the skin of a demon and inked in the blood of a dead fertility god. Others say it is just a script written on a hotel towel and preliminary art drawn on napkins. None say it is colored for the attempt killed all who tried.

Whatever its form the horror that was unleashed transcended its form striking all the planes and realities. Should this nameless comic ever be released it shall become a self-assembling hyper-text, it will be published and it will be sold. And it will sell well. Yet it will not remain one horrific story, for after it is sold then all of Story will begin to die, consumed in a black abyss from which there can be no escape. For attached to the text is a mandatory contract that only deepens the horror....

... its a movie deal. Jon Peters will produce, Michael Bay and Joel Schumacher are named as co-directors. Budget will be unlimited. It cannot be stopped.

But fear not. For the ascended Jack Kirby is watching over us and his agents, exposed to the secret beauty of the Source. They have the power to make the good, to give us entertaininment and inspiration. To take even the dumber, most idiotic ideas ever, like Red Hulk, Flash Thompson as Venom or incorporating Wildtorm into DCU, and turn it to glory. Lead by their great, golden champions, those brave men and women walk ahead, looking in the future full of good comics, ready to fight the insanity of Anti-Story with the power all the power they have. Master Of Dreams, Neil Gaiman. Creator Of Words, Joss Whedon. He Who Puts Fun in DisFUNctional, Peter David. Lone Wolf Robert Kirkman. Masters Of The Stars, DnA. He Who Gave Us The Devil, Mike Carey. Man Who Can Write Women, Greg Rucka. He Who Wants A Jetpack, Warren Ellis. And many others. Even if some of them sometimes balance between the sides of good or bad, not always keeping dark powers they're toying with in check, like the Irishman, Garth Ennis, whose other nickname cannot be told because of forum filter, but it involves word "horse" and synonym of a "rooster", or He Who Is Great Just Keep Him Out Of The Avengers, Brian Bendis, they still fight for the sake of stories. They are te writers. They give us stories.

Spoiler

Show

Now somebody draw me these guys as Power Rangers.

[Asheram]

I heard that Joe Casey has decent run on Younblood some time ago. On the other hand, right after he left, first thing Liefeld did was this:

Spoiler

Show

How the hell did that gun swap get through the editor O.o That's just sloppy.
And where'd that painting... Gah!

[TheEmerged]

I think it was his Captain America issue #2 where he had a robot that was supposed to be stationary/unmoving essentially doing jumping jacks from one panel to the next...

[Tyndmyr]

Really? He looks nothing like him. Sure, he's black with short hair, but the present POTUS looks nothing like that.
Of course, it's Liefeld, the man can't draw Bart Simpson right.

In addition to that questionableness, I'm having trouble with what the hell is actually going on in those three panels. Is he pushing down the wooden case in the last panel? Where the hell did the picture in panel 2 come from? It's just confusing and terrible.

[The Glyphstone]

Not to mention how the pool of blood appears to be shrinking back inside the agent's head between panel 1 and 3.

[leafman]

Is it sad that DC thinks revealing a character to be gay is a big deal when Marvel had a character (Northstar) propose to his boyfriend last week? I know Marvel hyped it a little, but come on, one of, if not the first gay marriages in (major) comics? Yeah, they can celebrate and hype it a bit.