Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

[Reluctance]

Regen Plot Question:

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If I am understanding the plot correctly, Time Lords typically only have 12 regenerations. But in the Last Great Time War the Time Lords used a device which can reset regenerations. Does this mean the doctor is on his next to last regeneration, or are we going to see a 13th doctor?

The series is known for asspulls, so I'm sure they'll think of one to keep The Doctor around if they feel the need. There've been enough excuses to reset his regeneration count by now.

At some point down the line it'd be nice if either Jenny or another vortex baby took the helm, but first I'll enjoy Smith and whoever comes after him. I much prefer long-term doctors to ones who get cycled out after a season.

[factotum]

They never actually said *why* Time Lords are limited to 12 regenerations, though. Is it an actual biological issue (in which case, 12 seems like a very specific number) or was it a legal one? If the latter then the Doctor can safely ignore it, there being no-one around to enforce those laws...

[Xondoure]

They never actually said *why* Time Lords are limited to 12 regenerations, though. Is it an actual biological issue (in which case, 12 seems like a very specific number) or was it a legal one? If the latter then the Doctor can safely ignore it, there being no-one around to enforce those laws...

I thought the reason was the Valeyard. But I'm not that familiar with old who.

[Kobold-Bard]

They never actually said *why* Time Lords are limited to 12 regenerations, though. Is it an actual biological issue (in which case, 12 seems like a very specific number) or was it a legal one? If the latter then the Doctor can safely ignore it, there being no-one around to enforce those laws...

The Master was once given a new set of regenerations, wasn't he? I believe it was a cultural thing enforced by the leadership of the Time Lords, but that's based on hearsay and Wikipedia, so could be mistaken.

Either way, if the show is still popular when a 14th Doctor becomes necessary, they're not just going to say "well that's too bad, canon says we have to stop production, oh well". They'll make it a plot point that he overcomes in a two-parter.

[dehro]

They never actually said *why* Time Lords are limited to 12 regenerations, though. Is it an actual biological issue (in which case, 12 seems like a very specific number) or was it a legal one? If the latter then the Doctor can safely ignore it, there being no-one around to enforce those laws...

mine is a pure guess..but couldn't it be that they never thought they'd get to actually keep the show running for such a length that reaching Dr nr 13 would be anything but a chimera?
.. so they just put a number to it that seemed unreachable at the time..could just as well have been 11, 17 or 29

[Hopeless]

They never actually said *why* Time Lords are limited to 12 regenerations, though. Is it an actual biological issue (in which case, 12 seems like a very specific number) or was it a legal one? If the latter then the Doctor can safely ignore it, there being no-one around to enforce those laws...

Rassilon I believe, who if you didn't watch the five doctors

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Why haven't you yet? Go ahead watch it this will wait!

was explained away that he was either sealed away because he was immortal and insane or just sealed himself away to protect timelord society from those that would use his secrets to conquer existance

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Well if he was the same guy played by Timothy Dalton in David Tennant's last outing then yes he was crazy and evidence why they restricted the regenerations to 12 and only offered extra when they absolutely needed that Timelord and had other ways of keeping them in line...

The real question is there have been a number of situations where the Doctor might have gained extra lives

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Brains of Morbius and the life elixir the sisterhood gave him to save his life, River using her remaining regenerations to save the Doctor's life, the fact that if you in a war with the Daleks not giving the Timelord with the most experience and lets be blunt the most likely to beat the Daleks a new set of regenerations before Rassilon was awakened would be just as crazy as releasing Rassilon because you put your hopes on the Master actually be willing to commit suicide for you even though he's never been that crazy until Rassilon intervened...
Then there's the fact the universe has been reset and the Doctor is still alive...

Can you think of more both classic and nu-who?

[Aotrs Commander]

They never actually said *why* Time Lords are limited to 12 regenerations, though. Is it an actual biological issue (in which case, 12 seems like a very specific number) or was it a legal one? If the latter then the Doctor can safely ignore it, there being no-one around to enforce those laws...

It has never been, like so much about regeneration, given a proper explanation, though there is a fairly reasoable eveidence to suggest it might be due to eventual degradation. As had happened to the Master and the end of his thirteeth incarnation - and in fact this is where the number of thirteen comes from, reinforced by the Valeyard (who preportedly came from between the Doctor's twelveth and thirteeth incarnations).

I have no doubt that when the time comes, they'll finagle their way around it (after all, the Master might be up to eighteen or more incarnations now!)

[comicshorse]

[QUOTE=Hopeless;14063738
The real question is there have been a number of situations where the Doctor might have gained extra lives

Can you think of more both classic and nu-who?[/QUOTE]

Hmmm

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The Numismaton gas that the Fifth Doctor encounters in 'Planet of Fire' has ridiculous restorative and enhancing powers

[Androgeus]

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the fact that if you in a war with the Daleks not giving the Timelord with the most experience and lets be blunt the most likely to beat the Daleks a new set of regenerations

The doctor still had like 6 regenerations left, I don't think they would have given him any additional regenerations so soon.

[Weezer]

The doctor still had like 6 regenerations left, I don't think they would have given him any additional regenerations so soon.

More like 4 but your point is valid, ifthe Doctor died more than 4 times in the time war, seems like the Time Lords would be pretty much done for. Can't imagine things being that bad and them coming back from it.

[Avaris]

More like 4 but your point is valid, ifthe Doctor died more than 4 times in the time war, seems like the Time Lords would be pretty much done for. Can't imagine things being that bad and them coming back from it.

It's also worth pointing out that we don't know the first doctor was the first doctor... in fact, I remember reading somewhere that at one point in old who they had something that went back through regenerations and showed some before the first doctor.

[comicshorse]

It's also worth pointing out that we don't know the first doctor was the first doctor... in fact, I remember reading somewhere that at one point in old who they had something that went back through regenerations and showed some before the first doctor.

'The Brain of Morbius' shows some of the Doctor's previous incarnations ( can't remember how many though)

[Beacon of Chaos]

Just randomly found this on tumblr, thought it was quite clever.

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You think that was intentional, or just a neat coincidence?

[Tvtyrant]

Just randomly found this on tumblr, thought it was quite clever.

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You think that was intentional, or just a neat coincidence?

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That's pretty good, and it makes the TARDIS look like it has a Fez.

[Eakin]

So if you haven't seen it yet there's an unshot scene from Angels Take Manhatten pertaining to Rory's dad...

Spoilers for that episode, obviously

[Soras Teva Gee]

So if you haven't seen it yet there's an unshot scene from Angels Take Manhatten pertaining to Rory's dad...

Spoilers for that episode, obviously

We were discussing that a few pages back actually... though this has a funny comment under it:

This had me weeping like an angel.

(funny because its true)

[Eakin]

We were discussing that a few pages back actually... though this has a funny comment under it:

This had me weeping like an angel.

(funny because its true)

That's what I get for only skimming back one page looking for the link, I guess. Figures I'd be late to the party when the video was posted more than a week ago. That's like a decade in internet time

[Sunken Valley]

It also leaves me a ton of questions, like "if the silence are trying to protect the universe, why did they use the TARDIS to blow it up at the end of season 5?

My theory? It was a batman gambit.

You see the Silent were behind the building of the pandorica. They would have made the "healing light". they would have known the doctor would make the big bang 2, deleting himself from the universe. And then they would be a-ok with that because then he would be gone and he couldn't stop them.

You see that's my problem with the silent, they don't have clear motivation. To make a convincing villain they have to have motivation and a clear goal. Otherwise they have disconnection from the viewer. What are the Silent? Are they from planet zod? Are they from earth? If so, why did the doctor kill an indigenous species of earth. Is it because, as the silent helped persuade humans to make space travel, they are also responsible for the "Space Race" and by extension the cold war? Because that not only required a lot of overthinking but it is really stupid as it absolves the entire human race of every war in history. What is their over all plan? Why should we stop them? Why does the doctor think his subliminal tape will work, as the Silent are more than capable of killing people? The Silent are a religious order? That raises so many questions I'm not sure I can ask here. So many questions you don't know enough to demonise the silent.

This batman gambit also means that the deus ex is Amy rebuilding the Doctor with her memories, which is just as lame as all the others. And of course, the doctor erased himself from the universe in ATM as he went back and spoke to young Amy, meaning Amy wasn't obsessed with him enough to bring him back.
Off topic

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Furthermore, why does River exist after the doctor erased himself. Her messed up life requires the doctor's existence.

Either that, or Moffat's just making it up as it goes along. It's been 3 years, all impact of the TARDIS's destruction is lost so that any reveal on how this major artifact could be destroyed would be just an "oh".

[Beacon of Chaos]

So if you haven't seen it yet there's an unshot scene from Angels Take Manhatten pertaining to Rory's dad...

Spoilers for that episode, obviously

T_T

I... I have something in my eye. Eyes. Both of them. That's all.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Why does the doctor think his subliminal tape will work, as the Silent are more than capable of killing people?

I agree with many of your questions but as the Silents are shown to NOT be immune to say bullets or otherwise particularly impressive physically (that's how they caught one remember) so are broadly less capable of fighting then humans and we can loosely assume exist in only a fraction of the number humanity does. In a stand up fight they loose the Doctor just gave them cause.

Off topic
Furthermore, why does River exist after the doctor erased himself. Her messed up life requires the doctor's existence.

I think you may be over estimating things. The Doctor has in the lastest series post the Silence nonsense gone around deleting records of himself. He's still always existed and therefor events in his own timeline all still happen with just a smidge of wibbly-wobbly along the way but net effect is him still existing.

This would also mean he won't interfere with his own timeline so certain records have to exist and the like. However because he also knows when those records are no longer needed or not under the Time Lock or whatever he can then erase them, so none of the new (to him) problems he faces will arise from his own personal past anymore.

[dps]

OK, let's finish up my review of the Doctor's companions and their fates:

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Rose: This is another one that I have trouble scoring. Granted that she seemed to have a boring, dead-end job when we first meet her, but that's true of lot's of 19 year-olds. Overall, she seemed to have an OK life before travelling with the Doctor. She ended up getting sucked into an alternate universe. Now, in some ways it seems like she has a better life there than in our world, but on the other hand, from the POV of our world, her life is essentially over. With a good bit of reservations, I'll say worse off.

Mickey: Mickey, as first presented to us, was, let's face it, a loser. He got a good bit of character growth. I'll say better off.

Adam: Got kicked out of the Tardis with a futuristic device implanted in his head. Worse off, though it's his own danged fault, not The Doctor's.

Donna: Also got a lot of character growth, but that was ultimately undone. The Doctor did get that winning lottery ticket for her, though. Even without that, had she not met The Doctor, she would have been fed to the Rocnoss' offspring, so how can she not be better off?

Martha: Well, she ended up getting a good job because of her connections with The Doctor, but she was a medical student to start with, so it's not like she was going to end up with a crappy entry-level job somewhere, now is it? No effect.

Captain Jack: Well, he ends up immortal, or nearly so. That might be something of a mixed blessing, but I'll call it better off.

Wilf: He's a cool old guy both before and after. No effect.

Amy: Started off with problems--the crack in her bedroom had already eaten her parents, though we didn't know it at the time--though those were ultimately linked to The Doctor anyway, since the cracks were caused by the explosion of the Tardis. Spent her childhood and adolescence being considered to have mental problems because of her insistance that The Doctor was real, and then finally got pulled back in time by the Weeping Angels. Nostalgia to the contrary, it was not better to have lived in the 30s-80s than in the present. Worse off.

Rory: Shared Amy's ultimate fate, but without the screwed up childhood beforehand. Still worse off, but not as badly as Amy.

River: Hard case to call--her whole life and existance, in a way, was about The Doctor. But in the end, despite what happened to her in the library, she didn't actually travel there with The Doctor, so I'll say no effect, even if it doesn't really fit in her case.

The score for this segment:

Worse off: 4
No effect: 3
Better off: 3

Total overall score:

Worse off: 10
No effect: 18
Better off: 10

Overall, that's a wash.

[Sunken Valley]

I agree with many of your questions but as the Silents are shown to NOT be immune to say bullets or otherwise particularly impressive physically (that's how they caught one remember) so are broadly less capable of fighting then humans and we can loosely assume exist in only a fraction of the number humanity does. In a stand up fight they loose the Doctor just gave them cause.


I think you may be over estimating things. The Doctor has in the lastest series post the Silence nonsense gone around deleting records of himself. He's still always existed and therefor events in his own timeline all still happen with just a smidge of wibbly-wobbly along the way but net effect is him still existing.

This would also mean he won't interfere with his own timeline so certain records have to exist and the like. However because he also knows when those records are no longer needed or not under the Time Lock or whatever he can then erase them, so none of the new (to him) problems he faces will arise from his own personal past anymore.

1) The Silent are deadly. Remember when they blew up the woman in the toilets? Or when they killed all the soldiers in Wedding of River Song? What's stopping them from reacting defensively again. We also have to remember that Canton is a trained agent, capable of handling himself in combat and that the Silent captured was bragging. A prepared Silent would lightning a normal person. Especially one without a gun. What are they expected to do, punch the Silent to death? The number of people dying by tripping over Silent bodies alone should be high.

Furthermore, there were much less people with TV in 1969. Maybe America got rid of most of its Silent (cept for the ones in Amish Communities and in the Amazon) and in western Europe but most of the world would not be watching the broadcast or have ever seen it. This includes a lot of countries where TVs are less common such as half of the african countries but also all the communist countries such as the entire eastern europe, USSR and China. Unless they are trying to say that there was a larger Silent populace there. Which is insulting.

2) I was referring to the Doctor going into the crack in "the big bang". Amy is helped in her remembrance of the Doctor by River Song handing her the diary. The diary is blank because there was no Doctor. But River Song can't exist if there is no Doctor. Her biology, back story and even her physical appearence would not be possible if the Doctor did not exist. So she could not have given Amy the diary.

[Reluctance]

1) The Silent are deadly. Remember when they blew up the woman in the toilets? Or when they killed all the soldiers in Wedding of River Song? What's stopping them from reacting defensively again. We also have to remember that Canton is a trained agent, capable of handling himself in combat and that the Silent captured was bragging. A prepared Silent would lightning a normal person. Especially one without a gun. What are they expected to do, punch the Silent to death?

Numbers. If one person sees a silent, it's likely that many of them will. Joy took quite some time to fry, and they needed several stacked advantages to overpower the 5:02 soldiers. So it's not the total eradication of the silents, it puts a significant damper on both their numbers and their ability to affect people.

Even assuming a silent is guaranteed to take a normal person one on one, before the moon landing they got stuff done by suggesting humans do it. Even in the absolute best case scenario, their labor source has been stripped from them.

Furthermore, there were much less people with TV in 1969. Maybe America got rid of most of its Silent (cept for the ones in Amish Communities and in the Amazon) and in western Europe but most of the world would not be watching the broadcast or have ever seen it. This includes a lot of countries where TVs are less common such as half of the african countries but also all the communist countries such as the entire eastern europe, USSR and China. Unless they are trying to say that there was a larger Silent populace there. Which is insulting.

This was actually covered. It wasn't just the moon landing at the moment it actually happened, it was footage hidden in one of the most famous and most watched scenes in history. Anybody who saw it at any point afterwards became a threat to the silent as well. So they didn't automatically wipe out, say, Chinese silents. They just made it happen as soon as the chinese were able to watch this historic footage.

2) I was referring to the Doctor going into the crack in "the big bang". Amy is helped in her remembrance of the Doctor by River Song handing her the diary. The diary is blank because there was no Doctor. But River Song can't exist if there is no Doctor. Her biology, back story and even her physical appearence would not be possible if the Doctor did not exist. So she could not have given Amy the diary.

Timey-wimey. Thinking about time travel too hard doesn't exactly make for light, entertaining television, so I'll allow a bit of fudging when it makes for a better story.

[Soras Teva Gee]

1) The Silent are deadly. Remember when they blew up the woman in the toilets? Or when they killed all the soldiers in Wedding of River Song? What's stopping them from reacting defensively again. We also have to remember that Canton is a trained agent, capable of handling himself in combat and that the Silent captured was bragging. A prepared Silent would lightning a normal person. Especially one without a gun. What are they expected to do, punch the Silent to death? The number of people dying by tripping over Silent bodies alone should be high.

They can kill yes, but so can we. They are hardly Daleks though

Furthermore, there were much less people with TV in 1969. Maybe America got rid of most of its Silent (cept for the ones in Amish Communities and in the Amazon) and in western Europe but most of the world would not be watching the broadcast or have ever seen it. This includes a lot of countries where TVs are less common such as half of the african countries but also all the communist countries such as the entire eastern europe, USSR and China. Unless they are trying to say that there was a larger Silent populace there. Which is insulting.

Well the Moon Landing was watched live by 500 million people. Global population in 1969 was 3.6 billion. That gives us a starting percentage of 13% of the world seeing it live from the get go. How many more would see it in other forms from replays, news coverage, and usage in other programs over the years.

And given that the Silents were manipulating humanity they would need a higher concentration in the centers of technology and power.

2) I was referring to the Doctor going into the crack in "the big bang". Amy is helped in her remembrance of the Doctor by River Song handing her the diary. The diary is blank because there was no Doctor. But River Song can't exist if there is no Doctor. Her biology, back story and even her physical appearence would not be possible if the Doctor did not exist. So she could not have given Amy the diary.

And River Song would be the least of the troubles.

Timey-wimey, time is not governed by simply linear logic but my more complicated factors then we can imagine. Obviously the effects were limited by their "temporary" nature.

This has been covered, yes its a big giant handwave but Doctor Who would not function with logical consistent stable time loops. Or at the least be less fun.

[dps]

Numbers. If one person sees a silent, it's likely that many of them will. Joy took quite some time to fry, and they needed several stacked advantages to overpower the 5:02 soldiers. So it's not the total eradication of the silents, it puts a significant damper on both their numbers and their ability to affect people.

Notably, they had the advantage of electrocuting the soldiers with the eye-drives.

[Tvtyrant]

The bigger question in my mind is how the Silence deal with the more deadly races. Daleks, Cybermen and Centaurians are going to rip them and their pathetic lightning hands apart, and the former two especially are going to kill them on sight. Even if the Silence (is it Silent or Silence? I always heard the latter but everyone is saying the former) staid on Earth the others have invaded it at one point or another, some of them before 1969.

[Reluctance]

People use both names. I prefer to refer to the race as Silents, and the event the religion is designed to stop (the Doctor spilling the beans) as Silence, but that's pure fan designation. Use whichever you like.

As to the race, "you should kill us all on sight" in some ways works in their favor. It shouldn't take long to learn that humans have suddenly become very dangerous, and to stay away from them. When other nonhuman races invade, the silents are still generally in their hidey holes, and the invaders are too busy focusing on the humans (and then later, on the Doctor stopping them) to go searching for random hideaways. Plus, being killed on sight (and not being remembered after leaving line of sight) makes it very unlikely that the lone silent who does goof and get spotted will draw attention to the rest of the hive.

There is the minor flaw that in the immediate aftermath of the moon landing, dead silents would litter the street and be a regular reminder that something is up. This, I'm willing to overlook niggling details on this level in the name of a good story. Sometimes narrative requires you to overlook finicky details.

[Tvtyrant]

I like the idea that the Silence has been able to avoid the more dangerous adversaries because the humans chased them underground.

Also, anyone looking to get into Classic Who from Nu Who might try the Deadly Assassin. It connects well with recent events, and has the best none-Dalek/Cybermen villain in the series IMO. I love cyborgs BTW.

[CthulhuEatYou]

We know nothing about the silence really as it is, and the writers can take them any direction they want. We don't know if their emperah-like lightning or their mind tricks work on the other races, we don't even know how many died during the episode and how effective the doctor was. Might have killed all, might only have killed a few. It was in 1969, who knows, at this point the silence could have taken over galaxies without anyone noticing, travelling on the odd interplanar spaceship "visiting" earth. Nobody knows, we can only assume.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The Silents obviously avoid the other races the same way they avoided humans for thousands of years.

Presumably a few got Exterminate!-ed or whatever when Daleks have been around but no report would come of it.

Heck I think it an open question what even the Doctor remembers about them.