Magic Sword: Fourth Edition Reborn

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I wrote a blog post on Mistspire a while back, before Magic Sword was a twinkle in my eye.

http://ultimatejosha.blogspot.ca/201...mistspire.html

[Dark Elf Bard]

I wrote a blog post on Mistspire a while back, before Magic Sword was a twinkle in my eye.

http://ultimatejosha.blogspot.ca/201...mistspire.html

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

That was a completely innocent joke.

[Dark Elf Bard]

Painful!

All those swords, and beards, and undead, and fiery dragons....

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Painful!

All those swords, and beards, and undead, and fiery dragons....

What?

Damn minimum post length.

[Gligarman2]

This is just a tiny america/britain Counterpart Culture. Meh!

[Daemonhawk]

Sorry for so little work being done on the playtest adventure, I've been swamped.

I just had a thought relating to the art, why don't we get some people from DeviantArt to do some artwork?

[Daemonhawk]

Also, would you mind if I made up a Historia for the world? I think ti would be really nice.

[Zelkon]

Genzoman is a great artist when he's not doing rediculous cheesecake.

[Zelkon]

Also, a Wayne Reynolds cover illustration starts at around $1700.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I would rather the world wasn't very fleshed out. A sort of fill-in-the-blanks type thing.

The history would be hinted at but not detailed. Locations would be left unexplored.

[Daemonhawk]

I would rather the world wasn't very fleshed out. A sort of fill-in-the-blanks type thing.

The history would be hinted at but not detailed. Locations would be left unexplored.

Okay. So...Idea.
Why don't we have a very...vague history.
And have it take place in a time of transition?
Like...a world shattering event.
A time when everything is gone, but once was, and it's up to the players to continue to gather information on the people of the world.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Okay. So...Idea.
Why don't we have a very...vague history.
And have it take place in a time of transition?
Like...a world shattering event.
A time when everything is gone, but once was, and it's up to the players to continue to gather information on the people of the world.

Interesting idea. Could you elaborate?

[Daemonhawk]

Interesting idea. Could you elaborate?

Nevermind. It wouldn't work in the setting.
I do feel like we need a solid history, though.

[Ialdabaoth]

Mechanics diversion:

At the moment, I'm going through my TRIC project (which I intend to provide as the basis of anyone who wishes to do a 4E-clone), and mapping out "core modules".

What's a "core module"? Think of it like an operating system's "Kernel" - it's a basic set of assumptions that you can swap in and out and still have your game work, but that change virtually everything.

Here's how it works:

Core Module: Definitions
The "core mechanic" of TRIC refers to six important concepts, all of which exist in some flavor in standard 4E - I've simply codified them. These concepts are:

Ability score - This is your typical 3-to-18 (or 3-to-20) rating for your ability.
Ability modifier - This is half your ability score, minus 5. So +0 if you have a 10, +4 if you have an 18 - you know the drill.
Ability base - This is the thing that gets added to all your attacks and proficiencies. It is explicitly named differently than your Ability modifier, so that powers in TRIC can distinguish between the two (this becomes important as different Core Modules compute your Ability base differently!). In 4E, this is your ability modifier plus half your level.
Training bonus - This is the bonus you get for being Proficient in a thing. In 4E, this is +2 for weapons, and +5 for skills. (In my system, weapons that would gain +3 for proficiency instead have a +1 accuracy bonus).
Expertise bonus - This is the bonus you get for being extra-Proficient in a thing. In 4E, this is a +1/tier scaling bonus for weapons, and a +2 bonus (called 'Focus' or something) for Skills.
Proficiency - This is your check modifier for a given weapon attack or skill, or your defense modifier for wearing a type of armor. It always equals your Ability base, plus your Training bonus, plus your Expertise bonus; but different Core Modules will compute your Base, Training Bonus, and Expertise Bonus differently.

So, now that we have those five definitions, here's a look at the basic 'Core Modules' provided:

The "4E Emulator" core module
- Your Ability scores are assigned from an array, and range from 3 to 20.
- Your Ability modifier for each score is equal to half the score, minus 5.
- Your Ability base for each score is equal to the modifier plus half your level.
- Your Proficiency for weapon attacks is equal to your Ability base, +2 if you are Trained in that weapon, +1/tier if you have Expertise.
- Your proficiency for magic attacks is equal to your Ability base, +1/tier if you have Expertise. Magic attacks do not use a skill proficiency to make their attack roll.
- Your Proficiency for skills is equal to your Ability base, +5 if you are Trained in that skill, +2 if you have Expertise.
- Your Proficiency for light armors is equal to your Dexterity base; Training simply allows you to wear the armor without granting advantage. Expertise simply removes your check penalty.
- Your Proficiency for heavy armors is equal to +2 + half your level (this is to allow heavy armors to give roughly equivalent protection no matter what module you use); Training simply allows you to wear the armor without granting advantage. Expertise simply removes your check penalty and speed penalty.

- Your defenses and Initiative are computed as follows:
* Armor: (armor base) + (Dex base if in light armor, or half level if in heavy armor)
* Fortitude: 10 + (class bonuses) + (higher of Con base or Str base)
* Reflex: 10 + (class bonuses) + (higher of Dex base or Int base)
* Will: 10 + (class bonuses) + (higher of Wis base or Cha base)
* Initiative: (class bonuses) + Dex base

- Monster math uses (+5 +level) for attacks, (14 + level) for Armor defense, and (12 + level) for other defenses.

The "Heroics" core module:
- Your Ability scores are assigned from an array, and range from 3 to 20.
- Your Ability modifier for each score is equal to half the score, minus 5.
- Your Ability base for each score is equal to half (the modifier plus your level).
- Your Proficiency for skills, magic attacks and weapon attacks is equal to your Ability base, +2 if you are Trained in that weapon or skill, +1 if you have Expertise. Magic attacks always use a skill proficiency to make the attack roll.
- Your Proficiency for armor is computed exactly like your Proficiency for skills and weapon attacks.

- Your defenses and Initiative are computed as follows:
* Armor: (armor base) + (Armor proficiency)
* Fortitude: 10 + (class bonuses) + Con base
* Reflex: 10 + (class bonuses) + Dex base
* Will: 10 + (class bonuses) + (higher of Wis base or Cha base)
* Initiative: (class bonuses) + (higher of Int base or Dex base)

- Monster math uses (+5 +half level) for attacks, (14 +half level) for Armor defense, and (12 +half level) for other defenses.

The "Level-based" Core Module
- Your Ability scores are assigned from an array, and range from 3 to 20.
- Your Ability modifier for each score is equal to half the score, minus 5.
- Your Ability base for each score is equal to your level, +1 if the Ability is 15 or higher.
- Your Proficiency for skills, magic attacks and weapon attacks is equal to your level, +5 if you are Trained in that weapon or skill.
- Your Proficiency for armor is computed exactly like your Proficiency for skills and weapon attacks.

- Your defenses and Initiative are computed as follows:
* Armor: (armor base) + (Armor proficiency)
* Fortitude: 10 + (class bonuses) + (higher of Con base or Str base)
* Reflex: 10 + (class bonuses) + (higher of Dex base or Int base)
* Will: 10 + (class bonuses) + (higher of Wis base or Cha base)
* Initiative: (class bonuses) + (higher of Dex base or Int base)

- Monster math uses (+5 +level) for attacks, (14 +level) for Armor defense, and (12 +level) for other defenses.

The Variable Module
The Variable Module is designed to emulate a more 3.5-style of play.

Ability Scores - Ability Scores are generated using six 4d6 rolls, summing the highest 3 dice in each roll, and assigning the values as you choose.
Ability Modifier - your Ability Modifier is equal to half your Ability Score (round down), minus 5.
Ability Base - your Ability Base is equal to your Ability Modifier.
Training - Training in any Proficiency grants you +2 to that check or defense.
Expertise - Expertise in any Proficiency grants you +1 to that check or defense. You may gain this bonus multiple times; at each level, you may Train a number of different Defenses or Proficiencies equal to 5 + your Intelligence modifier.
Defenses -
your Armor Defense is equal to your armor's base defense + your Proficiency with that type of armor.
your Reflex Defense is equal to your class bonus plus your Dexterity Base, +1 per Expertise spent to raise it.
your Fortitude Defense is equal to your class bonus plus your Constitution Base, +1 per Expertise spent to raise it.
your Will Defense is equal to your class bonus plus the higher of your Wisdom Base or your Charisma Base, +1 per Expertise spent to raise it.
Initiative - your Initiative modifier is equal to your class bonus plus the higher of your Dexterity Base or your Intelligence Base, +1 per Expertise spent to raise it.

Monster Math - monster math uses (+5 +level) for attacks, (14 +level) for armor, (12 +level) for one defense, and (12 + half level) for the other two defenses.

Other core modules may be created to serve different game styles.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I just want to say that the project isn't dead. I'm extremely busy right now, to the point where I am not really getting enough sleep, and I don't have enough time or energy to work on Magic Sword.

Hopefully, things will quiet down soon, and I can do more writing. In the mean time, it would be great if you guys were to do some stuff.

Thank you for your patience and understanding.

[Dark Elf Bard]

Oh, good! I thought this was dead.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Oh, good! I thought this was dead.

Lets try to get the project running again.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I dislike the spell schools of D&D 3.5 and Essentials. They work fine, but they aren't very evocative, and there are too many of them. I propose an alternate selection:

Enchantment: Beguiling illusions, subtle manipulation of emotions, hypnosis, magical sleep, and other such things.

Destruction: Bolts of lightening, twisting pillars of flame, magic missiles, shock-waves that bring down walls, earthquakes, and the like.

Necromancy: The creation of undead and the shaping of undeath.

Universal: All wizards can cast universal spells. Examples include flying, magical shields, and the detection of magic.

[Ialdabaoth]

I dislike the spell schools of D&D 3.5 and Essentials. They work fine, but they aren't very evocative, and there are too many of them. I propose an alternate selection:

Enchantment: Beguiling illusions, subtle manipulation of emotions, hypnosis, magical sleep, and other such things.

Destruction: Bolts of lightening, twisting pillars of flame, magic missiles, shock-waves that bring down walls, earthquakes, and the like.

Necromancy: The creation of undead and the shaping of undeath.

Universal: All wizards can cast universal spells. Examples include flying, magical shields, and the detection of magic.

I would personally advise the following schools (and names) instead:

Aetherics - Teleportation, scrying, and extraplanar travel and communication. May also be used for telepathy, but using a very different mechanism than Beguilement.

Elementalism - The raw evocation of elemental energies, such as turning a creature to stone, conjuring a lightning bolt or a fireball.

Beguilement - Illusions, sleep, fear, charm, mind control, telepathy, and other manipulations of perception, of emotion, of thought, or of behavior.

Necromancy - the creation and control of the undead and of death energies.

Telekinesis - levitation, movement, force-fields, and the control, creation, or abjuration of force and impact.

Metamagic - these effects are not even truly "spells", but raw weavings that affect the structure of magic itself.

"Enchantment", as a school, means too many different things - some people think it should mean ensorcelling/beguiling, while others think it should mean crafting magic items. "Beguilement" and "Artifice" are much more readily-comprehensible terms.

[Ialdabaoth]

Also, having a school like "Destruction" is inherently bad, because players should not be *forced* to pick a particular school if they want to play a particular role. "Destruction" is a hands-down striker role.

In the same sense that a weapon-user should be able to use weapon attacks to perform strikery actions, or defendery actions, or controllery actions, or leadery actions, a magic-user should be able to use magic spells to perform strikery effects, or defendery effects, or controllery effects, or leadery effects.

One of the great things about having "schools of magic", is that you can have Sorcerers and Wizards and Artificers and Swordmages share spell lists.

At which point, you need to make sure that the Sorcerer has sufficient striker options, and the Wizard has sufficient controller options, and the Artificer has sufficient leader options, and the Swordmage has sufficient defender options, no matter what school of magic they decide to take or specialize in.

It's easy to imagine how that would work with Beguilement, or Necromancy - even though they strongly lean towards one particular direction, you can still conceive of effects for each role:

Beguiler Striker - conjures terrifying illusions which deal psychic damage through sheer terror, pain, or sapping the will to fight.
Beguiler Defender - Conjures defensive illusions which make him harder to hit and befuddle the minds of the creatures he's marked, forcing them to attack him (and miss!) instead of targeting his allies.
Beguiler Controller - conjures luring illusions or hacks the enemy's minds directly with hypnosis, fear and charm spells
Beguiler Leader - bolsters his allies with morale-boosting charm effects, and weaves illusions over them to make them seems more fearful and intimidating to the enemy.

Necromancer Striker - exploding shards of bone, blood-draining spells and negative energy conjurations can directly deal necrotic damage, as can conjure-and-forget shrieking ghosts.
Necromancer Defender - by infusing your body with necrotic energy, you become a nigh-invulnerable being of fear and undeath, keeping your enemies from effectively engaging your allies.
Necromancer Controller - lol skeleton horde rush kekekeke
Necromancer Leader - By conjuring ancestor-ghosts to protect your allies, fortifying their bodies with lesser versions of the potions that you use to reinvigorate the dead, and warding them against the very necrotic energies that you command, you can do a pretty good job of keeping your allies alive.

With destruction, you run into the "all I have is a hammer; everything is therefore a nail" problem. This is great if you're a striker; if not, you effectively become one as soon as you take that school. Naming the school "Elementalism" instead makes it easier to fit defensive or buffing effects into the school - who wouldn't want the caster to give him an awesome sheet of rock-solid ice armor before going toe-to-toe with a red dragon in the middle of a volcano lair?

Likewise, avoiding a "universal" school means avoiding lumping a bunch of stuff together that doesn't belong together, but doesn't belong anywhere else - it's better to actually think about what the magic *does*, and find a logical grouping for it.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I would personally advise the following schools (and names) instead:

Aetherics - Teleportation, scrying, and extraplanar travel and communication. May also be used for telepathy, but using a very different mechanism than Beguilement.

Elementalism - The raw evocation of elemental energies, such as turning a creature to stone, conjuring a lightning bolt or a fireball.

Beguilement - Illusions, sleep, fear, charm, mind control, telepathy, and other manipulations of perception, of emotion, of thought, or of behavior.

Necromancy - the creation and control of the undead and of death energies.

Telekinesis - levitation, movement, force-fields, and the control, creation, or abjuration of force and impact.

Metamagic - these effects are not even truly "spells", but raw weavings that affect the structure of magic itself.

"Enchantment", as a school, means too many different things - some people think it should mean ensorcelling/beguiling, while others think it should mean crafting magic items. "Beguilement" and "Artifice" are much more readily-comprehensible terms.

I like this significantly better than what I came up with.

[Ialdabaoth]

I like this significantly better than what I came up with.

Glad to help!

[Zelkon]

I would personally advise the following schools (and names) instead:

Aetherics - Teleportation, scrying, and extraplanar travel and communication. May also be used for telepathy, but using a very different mechanism than Beguilement.

Elementalism - The raw evocation of elemental energies, such as turning a creature to stone, conjuring a lightning bolt or a fireball.

Beguilement - Illusions, sleep, fear, charm, mind control, telepathy, and other manipulations of perception, of emotion, of thought, or of behavior.

Necromancy - the creation and control of the undead and of death energies.

Telekinesis - levitation, movement, force-fields, and the control, creation, or abjuration of force and impact.

Metamagic - these effects are not even truly "spells", but raw weavings that affect the structure of magic itself.

"Enchantment", as a school, means too many different things - some people think it should mean ensorcelling/beguiling, while others think it should mean crafting magic items. "Beguilement" and "Artifice" are much more readily-comprehensible terms.

Aetherics is nice, but I don't see any combat use. It should be kept to rituals IMO.

Elementalism is neat, but I see Evoction as more than just energy. Also, I think Telekinesis should be rolled into this.

Beguilement should include everything that involves the mind, including telepathy.

Necromancy as a wizard school kills any possibility of a necromancer class, which needs a full class to truly act as what everyone says it is. Honestly it makes me more pessimistic about the game knowing my favorite class won't be in...

Why is Metamagic even a school? It's not like it actually encompasses spells...

Where does Conjuration go? I feel like pulling something out of nothing is worthy of it's own school. Actually, conjuration and evocation mean the same thing per the Thesaurus.

[Ialdabaoth]

Aetherics is nice, but I don't see any combat use. It should be kept to rituals IMO.

Elementalism is neat, but I see Evoction as more than just energy. Also, I think Telekinesis should be rolled into this.

Really, Elementalism is a lot of Evocation + a lot of Conjuration.

Beguilement should include everything that involves the mind, including telepathy.

Absolutely. As I said, "Aetherics can ALSO do telepathy, but it does it differently".

Necromancy as a wizard school kills any possibility of a necromancer class, which needs a full class to truly act as what everyone says it is. Honestly it makes me more pessimistic about the game knowing my favorite class won't be in...

I strongly disagree, here. Having Necromancy as a school makes it EASIER to make a Necromancer class. In the same sense that a Wild Mage or Dragon Soul is a kind of "Elemental Sorcerer", you could easily craft a "Necromantic Sorcerer" that does the same thing with Necromancy spells.

Why is Metamagic even a school? It's not like it actually encompasses spells...

Perhaps it shouldn't be; perhaps it should simply be part of the class features.

Where does Conjuration go? I feel like pulling something out of nothing is worthy of it's own school. Actually, conjuration and evocation mean the same thing per the Thesaurus.

Conjuring elemental energies or substances would go under Elementalism. Conjuring bubbles or walls of magical force, giant floating hands, and such would go under Telekinesis. Conjuring extraplanar portals or manifestations would go under Aetherics. Conjuring effects made out of negative energy would go under Necromancy. Conjuring phantasms and semi-solid illusions from the feywild would go under Beguilement.

Alternatiively: my current sub-system (different from Josha's) splits Wizards into four separate classes: Evokers (strikers), Abjurers (defenders), Conjurers (controllers) and Artificers (leaders). Then you pick a School on top of that.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I think that each class being able to fill all four roles weakens the concept of the class as a whole. The only one I can reasonably see playing four roles is the fighter.

The wizard is the guy with pasty skin and a bit of a cough because he has spent far too much time in a dark, musty room reading books. He can't hold his own in the thick of combat. He isn't a commander who heals and bolsters his allies. He is the relatively frail introvert with poor posture who unleashes blasts of arcane might on his foes and is slightly insane from gazing into the abyss.

[Dark Elf Bard]

Wouldn't Telekinesis be a psionic power?

[Ialdabaoth]

I think that each class being able to fill all four roles weakens the concept of the class as a whole. The only one I can reasonably see playing four roles is the fighter.

The wizard is the guy with pasty skin and a bit of a cough because he has spent far too much time in a dark, musty room reading books. He can't hold his own in the thick of combat. He isn't a commander who heals and bolsters his allies. He is the relatively frail introvert with poor posture who unleashes blasts of arcane might on his foes and is slightly insane from gazing into the abyss.

Then what's a Swordmage? What's an Artificer?

[Zelkon]

Then what's a Swordmage? What's an Artificer?

A swormage and an atificer. Different classes. A class can fit two roles easily, more is streching it.

[Gligarman2]

Quick Question? According to the words of The Giant, "Established Setting X but Better is a Sucker's Bet." What makes the world of magic sword different than D&D? What are you doing? Why should a consumer buy Magic Sword if they own Dungeons and Dragons? 90% of role players own D&D? This is seeming kinda Dungeons and Dragons-esque. Without a niche, Madcap Games might not do so well. This is important. I ask again, why should a consumer buy Magic Sword if they own Dungeons and Dragons? 90% of role players own D&D?