Magic Sword: Fourth Edition Reborn

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Ok, I'm ready to work. What do I need to do?

Please continue with the adventure until further notice.

[Zelkon]

Please continue with the adventure until further notice.

Err... I hadn't been working on it but, time to start!

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Guys ...

I've been having an interesting - and somewhat depressing - conversation with Gligarman2. Basically, he asked me how Magic Sword would compete with pirated 4e books and D&DI tools. I didn't have a good answer.

Honestly, it can't. The Wizards had a bigger budget, a bigger team with more time to work, Wayne Reynolds, more resources, and fewer legal restrictions. All of their books are available for free on the internet. Why would people donate to Magic Sword? We can't compete.

Unless I hear a REALLY good reason why Magic Sword will be able to make people care, I'm calling off the project.

However, this is not the end of our brotherhood. Madcap Games is strong. I quote Gligarman2:

On this sad bit of bad news, I bring good news! We have Madcap Games! We can make better games! On my commute, I just created half of a tabletop medieval politics simulator. That is an extreme! example of something new and original. We've got an awesome team, a visionary leader, and a hard-assed writer who loves his men like a father. We can make a better game. There is a niche for us, just one that is not exactly like other games. I like the idea of Magic Sword, but perhaps we could release it as a development kit for fourth edition with optional rules as opposed to a fully-done game. That gets put out, Madcap gets noticed, and we can split our time. How's that sound?

My idea was that we could take what we have of Magic Sword, extract all of the new and interesting things (such as the adventure), and make those independent of Magic Sword as a whole.

Tomb of the Unknown King is too good a premise to abandon, so it can simply become a free 4e adventure.

We also have the option of taking some of the innovations of Magic Sword, and publishing them as a sort of "Unearthed Arcana" to 4e.

Finally, if the team is up for it, I would like to devote the now free time and energy into making a whole new game that won't have to deal with legal issues.

There was this game I started working on as a side project. If you guys are up for it, I thing we could turn it into something great.

[Zelkon]

Yeah, why would someone ever buy PF or LL or anything that's on the web for free.
If you want to abandon MS, by all means. But give me a better reason.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Yeah, why would someone ever buy PF or LL or anything that's on the web for free.
If you want to abandon MS, by all means. But give me a better reason.

Do you get a polished, high-production-value, heavily-play-tested game for free, or an independently developed, low-production-value, less-polished game for money?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Do you get a polished, high-production-value, heavily-play-tested game for free, or an independently developed, low-production-value, less-polished game for money?

You can make a polished, high-production-value, heavily-play-tested, and independently developed game. You just need better organization than you had in these threads and in this project (still following it, albeit from a distance).

You guys started out trying to go in a half-dozen directions, gave a lot of free reign, and didn't even stop to hammer out core system decisions. There was a lot of "we're doing THIS differently!" without a lot of "this is WHY we're doing this differently, this is HOW we're doing this differently, and THIS is how that will change X, Y, and Z." You have broad-reaching goals, and less information on how you would implement such things. The implementation is the more important part.

As such, when I look over your Magic Sword document, I see...basically 4e, with a new hat. It's not a new system yet, because you didn't set out goals to make it a new system. It's probably not even out of WotC's gaming license territory, although I can't make that call, not being a professional and all (plus forum rules and so forth). It seems like 4e homebrew...like a 3.5 fix that just sits on top of the races, and maybe gives the fighter a new set of abilities. It's still 3.5, just with a slightly tweaked racial system. You were aiming for the Pathfinder of 4e, which is a MUCH larger project.

*****

The long and short of it is that you're designing a system. And you skipped squares 1-10 or something like that. It doesn't look like you ever got people together, buckled down, and said "we like X, Y, and Z from the core 4e rules. We need to change A, B, and C. This is the best way to change A, B, and C. Now let's write rules around changes to A, B, and C, and implement those across our design."

Some people put some effort into that, yes...but it wasn't taken as much to heart as it should have been. You guys jumped to far into the meat of the system without having a solid framework to hang it on, and jumped to quickly into adventure supplements, art, marketing, funding, and all that jazz.

Systems are designed from the ground up, and you glossed over the construction stages. It seems you assumed that the core of 4e works...and that may or may not be true. But you need to start system design from the very basics, and you need to hammer them into a fluid, functional system before you can add more on top of that.

I'm not sure you should give up on the project, if you want a 4e-esque system to continue to be supported. You just need to really work on your organization, design, and, yes, the team you choose to make these things work. How many of you actually have experience with system design? How many think they know the rules and balance of 4e enough to dissect it and pull out what works and what doesn't? You need people like that. Crowd-sourcing design is fine...but you have to make sure you can turn it INTO something.

-The Djinn

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

*Snip!*

The original goal of Magic Sword was to create a clone of 4e so that it could be supported after 4e dies. This has basically already done that. Then Magic Sword became its own heavily-4e-based RPG. The problem with that is that very few people - if any - will bother to learn a new game when they can just play pirated 4e.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Then Magic Sword became its own heavily-4e-based RPG. The problem with that is that very few people - if any - will bother to learn a new game when they can just play pirated 4e.

If this were true, Pathfinder, Legend, d20r, and all the other d20 variants out there would not have an audience. Hint: they have an audience. The good ones, anyway.

[Gligarman2]

Maybe we need to start off a fledgeling company with a unique offering as opposed to an improvement of an existing system.

[Zelkon]

The original goal of Magic Sword was to create a clone of 4e so that it could be supported after 4e dies. This has basically already done that. Then Magic Sword became its own heavily-4e-based RPG. The problem with that is that very few people - if any - will bother to learn a new game when they can just play pirated 4e.

Hint: people will pay for what they love.
Hint 2: people will pay money if given a quick, easy way to get a game that fixes some stuff and adds a new, innovative additions and support.
Hint 3: most of our audience will already be familiar with 4e.
Hint 4: people don't like to pirate stuff.

[Gligarman2]

Zelkon, I've mostly noticed that you never contribute anything to the project. You just sort of appear, criticise the latest post(s) and disappear. If you have a vendetta against us, just say so.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Maybe we need to start off a fledgeling company with a unique offering as opposed to an improvement of an existing system.

Well, a unique offering CAN be an improvement on a system. You just need to have a selling point: a reason why your system is better/different/more interesting than similar competition.

[Gligarman2]

One which MS never had. It was generic. Bland. Like steel wrapped in steel.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

One which MS never had. It was generic. Bland. Like steel wrapped in steel.

That was sort of my point. At no stage of development did the idea of giving MS an actual identity come up.

[Gligarman2]

That was my major objection to the project. Funny how two enemies can learn that we both misunderstood each other!

The other one was Daemonhawk's hardassery.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

That was my major objection to the project. Funny how two enemies can learn that we both misunderstood each other!

The other one was Daemonhawk's hardassery.

Wait...enemies what? Who said anything about enemies?

[Gligarman2]

Sorry. I guess it just seemed that you and Zelkon were the main critics of the (Now mercy-killed) project.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Sorry. I guess it just seemed that you and Zelkon were the main critics of the (Now mercy-killed) project.

I was critical of the development process I saw in the thread, because that process seemed detrimental to actually producing a polished product. My comments were an attempt to get this recognized without directly intervening. I'm sorry if that came off as hypercritical.

I actually always support system design...but I tend to call things as I see them. Additionally, my comments were pointing out potential legality issues and possible design process faults: both of which were, in my mind, important things to realize.

[Gligarman2]

Yeah. At least your criticism made sense. Zelkon sort of just appeared, criticized, and left. I'm glad Madcap's learned how to make a game, and we've gone to make a better one. I still think that the "idea" our otherwise grand leader suggested of fighting teddy bears the RPG is kinda meh though.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I hope Daemonhawk will be on board with whatever we do next.

[Zelkon]

Zelkon, I've mostly noticed that you never contribute anything to the project. You just sort of appear, criticise the latest post(s) and disappear. If you have a vendetta against us, just say so.

Geeze, sorry. Apologies for lending a critical eye. I'm critical cuz that's usually considered helpful.

And I'm just going to stop there. I have more I want to say, but I'd be better for everyone if I don't let my temper get a hold of me. Consider this my resignation from nothing.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Geeze, sorry. Apologies for lending a critical eye. I'm critical cuz that's usually considered helpful.

And I'm just going to stop there. I have more I want to say, but I'd be better for everyone if I don't let my temper get a hold of me. Consider this my resignation from nothing.

Dude. Your criticism has been interesting. Don't leave because you think you aren't welcome.

[Gligarman2]

I sent you a few PMs, sir.

[Gligarman2]

What the hell happened to everyone affiliated with this?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

What the hell happened to everyone affiliated with this?

I'd imagine the recent discussion was very discouraging to those involved...from my view as an outsider, it looked like the project up and died, and not everyone on board with this project is necessarily interested in other projects.

[Zelkon]

Dude, I'm on the forums a ton. I homebrew and talk about homebrew quite a lot (recent obsession). I'm fine to keep going, or not.

[Gligarman2]

Son of a bitch. I guess if no-one contacts me in a week, Madcap Games has failed. More time to work on my Pvt. Church armor, I guess...

[Daemonhawk]

Well, looks like the $hit hit the fan while I was gone. Sorry.
Long story short my Internet got disconnected, and it's a wonder I survived.

So, what needs to be fixed, and what exactly happened?

[Dark Elf Bard]

****. I really, really, wannted this to happen.

[Daemonhawk]

Who says it can't? Somebody must simply take the mantle, like Bruenor Battlehammer at the claiming of Mithril Hall.