Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

[3WhiteFox3]

Sorry to add to what appears to be a rapidly growing backlog, but could you give me a tiering of my Doll Maker? I'm aiming for a solid tier 3. I've been tweaking/refining it since it first went up, and I'm hoping for an idea of where it stands before I apply any further big buffs or nerfs.

I'm not Morph Bark, but I thought I'd help out by looking at the class and trying to tier it to the best of my ability. I apologize for the length (I have written essays much shorter than my review) the class really gave me a lot to think about (good thing). So thanks to that my thoughts are a bit scattered. I hope that this helped anyway. As I was going over the class I kept getting side-tracked by yet another option that really changed how the class worked.

I looked over it, but I'm not really sure what tier it should be, it looks like a really fun and interesting class with great flavor. It's got a lot of potential and very unique class features. The main issue is that the dolls are pretty mediocre on their own but have a lot of potential thanks to the Doll Feats, Magic Strings and Maintained Spell class features. Use the doll feats right and you are able to switch them out given an hours notice, probably some of the best long-term mass buffing (on your dolls only) in the game. They make incredibly good usage of the spells they have, and have feats to make them even better.

My gut says high Tier 3 assuming moderate to high optimization, they lack the sheer game-breaking power that would catapult them to tier 2. It's definitely not a beginner's class, mainly because you have so many options, not only during character creation but also during play. I would need to see how one actually plays before I can make a better decision. A Doll Master not taking advantage of the Doll Feats, Magic Strings or Maintained Spells will probably feel more like a tier 5 class. It's one thing to need the moderate optimization assumed by the tier system, but the Doll Master seems to be a step beyond that. There's a lot to absorb and think about. I mean, if a Wizard wants to cast Create Pit he just prepares it and then casts it. The Doll Master is a lot more involved.

Summoners (PF) are already infamous with slowing things down, thanks to the sheer amount of actions that they have to be able to juggle. I think that the Doll Master is actually worse. Because they can have a large number of dolls on the table and each doll has it's own very large set of options (even within the platoons). It's a lot to keep straight. My best guess would be to make the base-line dolls a little more potent and taking away some of the doll feat options (not how many they get over 20 levels, but some of the more superfluous options like Strong Connection and Animal Form)

In conclusion, I'm not sure what to buff or nerf, it seems like the class has a really delicate balance, it can buff it's dolls extremely well, but is screwed if they take a big hit and several die. It's got a lot of tactical options, but they might be over-whelming to actually use. I don't want to seem too negative here, the class is very well made, and there are many, many options to make the class and lots of combinations. I think that if you want to feel like the commander of your own small army, you are going to be very happy with the class, but for your more average player, this may be a bit over their head. It's a well-designed class with issues that would probably require a big overhaul to it's basic concept.

[Doxkid]

I'll take that as a compliment.


I'm currently steeped in work to resolve my application to a new school, so I won't be able to set myself to Tiering until I have completed it. Feel free to continue to post requests, or even comment on others' work with an estimation of your own in the meantime.

As always, stay 'brewing, my friends.

Speaking of which, are you ever going to finish that botanomorphist homebrew of yours?

[UserShadow7989]

-snip-

Now that you've pointed it out, streamlining does seem to be the biggest thing the class needs right now. While I attempted to simplify it with the Platoons and making buffs shared instead of tracked individually, a Doll Maker is almost certain to slow down combat even with that, and have a high learning curve besides.

I'm going to see what I can come up with to make it simpler/quicker to play without affecting balance. Thanks for the in-depth review of the class.

On that note: I hope everything goes well, Morph- a few friends of mine have been dealing with that recently, and it sounds like a major hassle.

[Beelzebub1111]

Would you consider ranking my Knight of Dullahan? I was shooting for maybe High Four - Low Three:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...php?p=16827292

[Morph Bark]

Speaking of which, are you ever going to finish that botanomorphist homebrew of yours?

I'm afraid not. There's a lot of ways to expand upon it, but I haven't had the inspiration to work on it, and after so long a time I doubt I will anytime soon.

Should there be anyone wanting to create homebrew based off of it, or even flesh out the class into a fully working one, they have my permission. Just leave a little link or mention in the intro about it.

On that note: I hope everything goes well, Morph- a few friends of mine have been dealing with that recently, and it sounds like a major hassle.

Yeah, it is in most cases. So far it's gone relatively smoothly, but I have had to make several calls to the school to make sure everything was in order the way I thought it was. It may still not be, but if it is, I should be done by mid-February at the latest.

If not, it'll take me until June.

[Zaydos]

I submit, for your reviewing pleasure when you have the time, the tall tale a class built around the idea of taking skills up to 11. Now with a casting variant.

[CryWolfCorrupt]

Posted these awhile back but still would love to know about where they rank?

Judgemaster
Opportunist
Strategist
Shadow Shifter

At the very least maybe passers-by will see them and stop by for a PEACH to help me get them to 110%.

[CrazyYanmega]

Thanks for making this list! I really enjoy reading it, and hope to one day make a class that hits the top of the charts!

[DracoDei]

Thanks for making this list! I really enjoy reading it, and hope to one day make a class that hits the top of the charts!

You mean somewhere in the middle, right?

I mean, it is my understanding that few people set out to make a Tier 1.

[qwertyu63]

Thanks for making this list! I really enjoy reading it, and hope to one day make a class that hits the top of the charts!

You do know that being on the top means you've made a powerful class, not necessarily a good one, right?

[Ilorin Lorati]

Shhh, just let the boy dream.

[Zaydos]

Oh yeah, Morph, if you're still looking for vestige stuff I went on a bit of a creativity binge and present to you:

A Vestige using base class (intended to be tier 1 to 2 *hides ashamed face*)

And 2 sets of rules for making pacts with devils to bind them, one for binding a little bit of an arch-devil's will* and one for allowing a fiend to possess you in exchange for vestige benefits**.

And a diabolist binder-warlock theurge***

Hope you enjoy.

*: Now including the Lords of the 9 (Mephistopheles twice), Moloch former Lord of the Sixth and Zariel former Lord of the First. If anybody knows a duke or count of Hell to suggest, just post it there and I'll see if I can do something with it.

**: Now including 6 devils and 3 demons and I have more to do. I mean you can't bind a devil of every level.

***: I should not be allowed to read sidebars about re-fluffing things.

[CrazyYanmega]

I have a finished class! Please look at it when you get the chance! It's the Shield Guardian in my sig.

You are still updating the list, right?

[Temotei]

I have a finished class! Please look at it when you get the chance! It's the Shield Guardian in my sig.

You are still updating the list, right?

He does, though he doesn't update it with everything he sees.

[Zaydos]

I have a finished class! Please look at it when you get the chance! It's the Shield Guardian in my sig.

You are still updating the list, right?

I believe they are, though they did say they'd be busy till the middle of February. I will also note, though, that the tier system applies to Base Classes not Prestige Classes (someone did try and tier how they affect the entry class somewhere but that's a whole other kettle of fish). I'd have to really pit Morph if they were tiering homebrew PrCs I mean they're numerous and legion. Also realized some of the ones I've made are possibly lost now since I never bothered to add them to my extended sig

[toapat]

i feel like someone (not morph) should quarry the topic for a list of everything that has been missed

[The Mormegil]

I have created a few classes for beginners. I've set my goal to be (high) Tier 3. I'd love to have a second opinion on how they place. I'm aware rating the Medium is not possible without spirits, but the other three are pretty simple (well, that's the goal at least).

[Morph Bark]

THE FORUMS MAKE THEIR RETURN, AND THUS BEGINS A NEW AGE

Also, I've had my interview for the new school, went well, but not well enough that I'm an instant shoe-in. I'll have to pass another test and check whether they pick some students by lottery, because a year after I entered high school the system changed and the old system's diplomas are no longer valid as of this year, at least for those schools that pick students by lottery. Which makes for some really bad timing for me.

They at least told me I was near the top of the "maybe" list due to checking all boxes but "has made a video game". Which I would've checked if I still had my results from a course from a couple years ago, but that's been gone for years.


I'll be occupied with a few such things the coming week, mostly Empire, but next week I will tier a few handfuls of classes again. After that, it likely won't be a steady thing, but next week there will be some.

[Dimmet]

THE FORUMS MAKE THEIR RETURN, AND THUS BEGINS A NEW AGE

Also, I've had my interview for the new school, went well, but not well enough that I'm an instant shoe-in. I'll have to pass another test and check whether they pick some students by lottery, because a year after I entered high school the system changed and the old system's diplomas are no longer valid as of this year, at least for those schools that pick students by lottery. Which makes for some really bad timing for me.

They at least told me I was near the top of the "maybe" list due to checking all boxes but "has made a video game". Which I would've checked if I still had my results from a course from a couple years ago, but that's been gone for years.


I'll be occupied with a few such things the coming week, mostly Empire, but next week I will tier a few handfuls of classes again. After that, it likely won't be a steady thing, but next week there will be some.

I don't suppose we can find some way to contact the class-creators on the tier list and inform them that they need to remake their tables? As-is, with all the broken tables it's too much of a hassle to use anything here, kind of undermining the point.

[toapat]

I don't suppose we can find some way to contact the class-creators on the tier list and inform them that they need to remake their tables? As-is, with all the broken tables it's too much of a hassle to use anything here, kind of undermining the point.

well i put a line in my sig telling people to ping me about it

[JeminiZero]

Well, I have fixed all my tables.

Maybe you could add a tag next to each listed class to indicate if the table has been fixed or not. Or even sort the current list into two separate lists.

Incidentally, I would like to request that Trissociate be moved from the Fix Class list, to the Homebrew list. Since while it is usable as a class fix, that was not its primary purpose, as evidenced from these sample builds: Angel, Dhampir Stalker.

[DracoDei]

FWIW, I'm working on it, but the time (or rather energy) I can devote to it is a limited resource, and the Guardian of Minds (Guardian of Hearts?), is really low on my list of things to fix... not least because I doubt anyone is going to use that poor Tier 5 (Tier 6?) thing.

My other Base Class is a higher priority, but that hasn't been Tiered yet.

[Zaydos]

I think I fixed all my classes on this thread.

Now I'm gonna wait a bit before fixing the remaining mass of them.

[Beelzebub1111]

I fixed my Knight of Dullahan Just for submission's sake.

[Larkas]

Would you mind reviewing these? They're a couple of archetypes that, when taken together, will upgrade the rogue a bit (to low T3, or at least that's my hope). Of course, any input about the homebrew itself would be also greatly appreciated.

[Temotei]

I've fixed everything of mine.

[Morph Bark]

Well, I have fixed all my tables.

Maybe you could add a tag next to each listed class to indicate if the table has been fixed or not. Or even sort the current list into two separate lists.

That would be a hellish amount of work. However, PMing some of the more prolific brewers with a link to this table converter is something that could be done. It is one of the several converters, and sadly this one doesn't make it look like the old tables, but TheWombatOfDoom knows how to do that. I could ask him.

Informing everyone who's partaken in the homebrew contests could also be a good idea.

[toapat]

im only not updating because most of my material i feel i could do better now then originally, or im just not caring.

[sirpercival]

I have so many to fix.... :( :( :( :( :(

[Lix Lorn]

All of my tables for things I still support are fixed, iirc.