Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

[WarriorPoet]

What are the benefits of using Berserker over Barbarian? Obviously you lose out of GM shenanigans, but the Barbarian has greater hit die, can't be backstabbed, moves faster, and Rage seems to convey the benefits of Berserk without the fatigue.

[The Glyphstone]

Berserk gives immunity to Imprisonment, Rage gives immunity to Level Drain. I've found it easier to get immunity vs. energy drain, and being Imprisoned will oneshot unless you've got Freedom (Berserkers w/ Death Ward can solo Demiliches).

[Calemyr]

What are the benefits of using Berserker over Barbarian? Obviously you lose out of GM shenanigans, but the Barbarian has greater hit die, can't be backstabbed, moves faster, and Rage seems to convey the benefits of Berserk without the fatigue.

For one thing, Barbarian also lacks access to heavy armor. Running around in splint mail is okay, but you're never the tank a Berserker would be. You'll need those bonus HP to mitigate the loss of armor.

For another, as I read it, Berserk improves AC by 2 while Rage penalizes AC by 2, as well as saves versus magic. Imprisonment is also a lot nastier for a fighter (especially a bhaalspawn) to deal with than level drain - Imprisonment is an instakill, level drain for a non-caster might as well be fatigue (albeit potentially fatal fatigue).

Finally, Barbarians cannot dual class. Not a big deal for a non-human or a single class character, but reduces your available options.

On the other hand, Barbarians do get immunity to backstab, a higher base movement speed, better hit die, and a bit of damage reduction from physical sources (blunt, sharp, pointy, and flying). That last bit probably is a mercy to the fact that your AC is still going to suck but you're not going to get any more HP to go with it, though...

On the topic of kitting, though, I'm pondering another run through with my fighter/thief, albeit possibly with a different party. Imoen and Neera will be there, obviously, but I'm not sure who else to take...

* Dorn - without a happy patch, he is annoying at high rep. With a happy patch, he's still little more than an evil Minsc without the friends.

* Rasaad - I like the guy, I do. But he suuucks. Monks are pathetic in this game - he'd be better off as a bard! Actually, I remember there being an arcane fist bard kit mod... I might just try remaking him as that...

* Yeslick - Boring? Perhaps. But everyone is boring in this game unless they're brand new, and Yeslick offers a really interesting opportunity: Fighter/Cleric offers half a hit point per level for ten levels. Ranger Cleric offers all druid spells, stealth, charm animal, and favored enemy. I'm thinking Doppelganger for enemy - Yeslick's ultimate nemesis now is the Iron Throne, after all...

* Ajantis - No go with Dorn, but an acceptable alternative. Especially given the Ajantis has a friendship mod out there. At least someone will have something to say in that case...

* Kivan - I want to give him the archer kit so bad... Tell me he wouldn't be absolutely EVIL with that at his disposal.

* Imoen - Yeah, I'm taking her, I'm just not sure if I want to go Swashbuckler/Mage like usual or Blade/Jester. Since I'm already a thief, she isn't really needed as one.

* Alora - Not really. But I want to make her an assassin. Little Miss Sunshine Death. Happy Happy Stab Stab!

[Winthur]

* Yeslick - Boring? Perhaps.

He's a dorf
How the hell can that ever be boring

[Calemyr]

He's a dorf
How the hell can that ever be boring

He's a solid, stolid, and somewhat stupid old blacksmith who gets by in life not by being brilliant or interesting, but having the sense to just get down to business. With BG1NPC he becomes a pretty interesting guy, with the whole payback aspect and putting his sense to proper use in general, but without that blessed mod he's little more than a sub-par divine caster who wastes half his experience maintaining access to weapon specialization. Switching fighter to ranger wouldn't make him as good as a single-class caster, but it would give him a heck of a lot more options.

[Kish]

sub-par divine caster
wastes half his experience
wouldn't make him as good as a single-class caster

You appear to have a much higher opinion of the value of a single level of cleric (that level being 8, not a level that would grant access to a new spell level) than I do.

(...And of course, there's his innate Dispel Magic.)

[Starbuck_II]

What are the benefits of using Berserker over Barbarian? Obviously you lose out of GM shenanigans, but the Barbarian has greater hit die, can't be backstabbed, moves faster, and Rage seems to convey the benefits of Berserk without the fatigue.

Rage gives you +4 Con/Str, they haven't fixed the Con bug* yet.

* any stat increase for a warrior/any type stays after level if they have it on when they level (strongest effect for warrior types).

So if you have 22 Con (18 + 4 Rage) you have +7 hp/level, while your hps after rage will revert to normal, you still gain 7 + rolled dice (12 if on easy and game maxes) meaning you gain 8-19 hp each level (after 1st till 10th).

Low Con people need Fortitude potions (18 Con) to make good benefit: Shar-teel (9 Con), Dorn, etc.

[Johnny Blade]

Berserk gives immunity to Imprisonment, Rage gives immunity to Level Drain. I've found it easier to get immunity vs. energy drain, and being Imprisoned will oneshot unless you've got Freedom (Berserkers w/ Death Ward can solo Demiliches).

Berserk gives immunity to both Imprisonment and Level Drain. It also protects you from some other stuff that a Barbarian's Rage doesn't, but Imprisonment is the big one.

Also, if you already have high Str and Con (18+), +4 to both isn't necessarily much better than just getting +2 to attack and damage rolls and 15 extra HP.

Basically, Berserker Enrage is better than Barbarian Rage.

For one thing, Barbarian also lacks access to heavy armor. Running around in splint mail is okay, but you're never the tank a Berserker would be. You'll need those bonus HP to mitigate the loss of armor.

Definitely true for BG1 and early SoA, but later on AC becomes less of an issue. At that point, high HP and damage reduction are great for a tank, and a Barbarian has both.

Finally, Barbarians cannot dual class. Not a big deal for a non-human or a single class character, but reduces your available options.

Just as an aside, there's a mod for that. I don't remember which one does it and if it'll be made EE-compatible, but it's there.

On the other hand, Barbarians do get immunity to backstab, a higher base movement speed, better hit die, and a bit of damage reduction from physical sources (blunt, sharp, pointy, and flying).

I just want to say, that speed bonus matters more than people may think. I made Minsc a Barbarian once, and being able to actually run interference and protect his squishy caster friends wasn't bad at all.

EDIT: And obviously, you can use it for comfortably kiting Wolves around in BG1.

* Kivan - I want to give him the archer kit so bad... Tell me he wouldn't be absolutely EVIL with that at his disposal.

Haha, I did that once...it was terrifying. He got something like two thirds of all kills. Early game. I threw him out at some point because I really, really dislike what the BG1 NPC Project did to his character. I don't know what would have happened if he'd actually gotten to 4 pips in bows and magic ammunition; maybe he would've been responsible for 90% of the party's kills.

* Imoen - Yeah, I'm taking her, I'm just not sure if I want to go Swashbuckler/Mage like usual or Blade/Jester. Since I'm already a thief, she isn't really needed as one.

Jester should be a lot of fun. Does their song break invisibility in EE? Otherwise, might just try parking her in the Bandit Camp and see what happens as everyone goes insane.
Also, Bards are pretty good in BG1, it has to be said.

* Alora - Not really. But I want to make her an assassin. Little Miss Sunshine Death. Happy Happy Stab Stab!

I couldn't take her sound set for long the one time I tried her out, but with her Dex and sling bonus...she should even work well as a poison delivery system.

You appear to have a much higher opinion of the value of a single level of cleric (that level being 8, not a level that would grant access to a new spell level) than I do.

Yeah, I was gonna say. You even get Yeslick at a point where a multi-class character's slow start isn't much of an issue anymore.

Just being a Dwarf (Saving Throw bonuses) and multi-classed makes him a good character, his stats don't need to be more than adequate (which they are).

[ArlEammon]

I"m saving my Mage character for Baldur's Gate II. But I"m a little confused. I gave my Mage a Wisdom stat of 15 at the start of the game. So altogether, my Mage character has:

15 Strength (So he can haul around gear)
18 dexterity (For armor class)
16 constitution (Health yah)
17 intelligence (Not maxed out because 17 is all you need. Plus, later in the game you can increase your intelligence stat and all other stats anyway)
15 wisdom (For the Wish spell, and for saving throws)
10 charisma

My question is, was it wise, pun intended, to put alot of points into the Wisdom attribute?

[Squark]

Wish is quite literally one of the strongest 9th level spells in the game, simply for it's ability to reset your spells. But you really want 18 Wisdom for that.

Also, on the topic of Barbarian rage; Raging gives you a bonus to the roll on saves vs. Magic, so that means you beat your Saving throw number more often, hence failing fewer saves.


Confusing things like that are why we love the d20 system.

[Calemyr]

Yeah, I was gonna say. You even get Yeslick at a point where a multi-class character's slow start isn't much of an issue anymore.

Just being a Dwarf (Saving Throw bonuses) and multi-classed makes him a good character, his stats don't need to be more than adequate (which they are).

Er, I think you're drawing the wrong conclusion from my statement. My complaint wasn't that he was a dwarf or a cleric or a multi-class cleric. That's all fine. My slight gripe was for the use of fighter for the other half. Fighter is next to useless as multiclass goes in the first place, but it's so very much worse with a cleric - there's very little it brings to the plate - no new weapons, no new armors, no new skills. Druids gain more armors, mages gain much needed durability, and thieves gain access to a lot more weapons. Clerics get, frankly, jack. Just half a fighter hit die and the ability to specialize, and there are other kits and classes that do as much and more. Making a ranger sacrifices nothing but adds so many possibilities.

And, yes, Yeslick is dull. That's actually sort of a special thing about him. In a game of Corans and Edwins and Minscs and Imoens and Aloras and... well... a LOT of loud and showy folk, Yeslick is a quiet, retiring soul who only gets inspired to fight back after he is betrayed, enslaved, and forced to strip mine his own home for the Iron Throne. I don't dislike him for being dull, but that doesn't change the fact that he is.

Of course, it's kinda pointless, anyway. Imoen has no banters and the new kids avoid dealing with the old crew outside of recruitment, and there are really not a lot of banters worth working for in BG1. So without BG1NPC, it's mostly just a question of which soulless husk you want to throw at the enemies most.

Also, the description I read about the Barbarian said the 2 modifier on the saving throws was a penalty. Regardless of the presence of a negative sign, I read penalty as being a detriment.

[Starbuck_II]

Also, the description I read about the Barbarian said the 2 modifier on the saving throws was a penalty. Regardless of the presence of a negative sign, I read penalty as being a detriment.

You aren't thinking like 2E, half the fun is figuring out when the penalty is a good thing.
Like negative to Thac0 are good, bonuses are bad.

[Cespenar]

If I'm not mistaken, a penalty is always bad, even if they mess up the plus/minus bit.

Ideally, they should say "-1 bonus to thaco" or "+2 penalty to AC"; or even more ideally, lose either the plus/minus, or the bonus/penalty.

[Morty]

Making Kivan an Archer definetly occurred to me as well. But since I already have one warrior who can only wear studded leather, I decided not to.

[Johnny Blade]

Barbarian Rage gives you a saving throw penalty. As in, makes you more likely to fail saves. It's usually not a big deal because he'll be immune to so many things (Horror, Chaos, Hold Person etc.) anyway, but a Barbarian really wants that Death Ward.

Fighter is next to useless as multiclass goes in the first place, but it's so very much worse with a cleric - there's very little it brings to the plate - no new weapons, no new armors, no new skills. Druids gain more armors, mages gain much needed durability, and thieves gain access to a lot more weapons. Clerics get, frankly, jack. Just half a fighter hit die and the ability to specialize, and there are other kits and classes that do as much and more. Making a ranger sacrifices nothing but adds so many possibilities.

So, attacking twice as often by endgame isn't doing it for you?

Not to say that Ranger/Cleric isn't better (although the slow progression will be very noticeable on a multi-class), but Fighter/Clerics are good.

And by the end of the game, Yeslick will have the same attacks per round as a pure Fighter and the same highest spell level as a pure Cleric.

[Morty]

This is weird... when I talk to Kivan, he tells me he has urgent matters to attend to and leaves.

[Kish]

Er, I think you're drawing the wrong conclusion from my statement. My complaint wasn't that he was a dwarf or a cleric or a multi-class cleric. That's all fine.

I don't think you're getting what I disagreed with.

You stated that he's "a subpar divine caster," and that even switching what he's multiclassed with "wouldn't make him as good as a a single-class caster." I say he's the best cleric in the game (Branwen being level 8 instead of level 7 by the end does not make up for her having Spiritual Hammer instead of Dispel Magic and being so much more breakable than Yeslick; Viconia, same notation, with the substitution of magic resistance for Spiritual Hammer and the added note that magic resistance is very much a double-edged sword in BG1. And if you try to argue that only BGTrilogy or some such mod where magic resistance functions as in BG2 counts, I'll consider that justification for basing any arguments about Yeslick on a mod I just invented that gives him 25s in all stats).

[Starbuck_II]

This is weird... when I talk to Kivan, he tells me he has urgent matters to attend to and leaves.

Is your reputation too high or too low?

Neutrals like neither 1 or 20 Reputation if that is case.

[Kish]

Kivan is a ranger; I think he's Neutral Good, but he's definitely something good, unless Enhanced Edition actually went and changed his alignment.

And even if Morty's reputation is 1, I'd be surprised if EE changed it so that Kivan won't even talk to you if your reputation is too low. Sounds more like a garden-variety bug; Morty, what chapter are you in?

[Morty]

I have 19 reputation, but Kivan is good-aligned anyway. Maybe it's because I infiltrated the bandit camp instead of cutting my way through? BG1 NPCs are really weird sometimes.
As for which chapter I'm in - I just began Chapter 5, having killed the dirty cheater Davaeorn.

[mangosta71]

Kivan is a ranger, and rangers in 2e have to be good. 20 reputation shouldn't be a problem.

[ArlEammon]

On the note of 2nd Edition classes, who finds Conjuror's a cool class?

[Starbuck_II]

I have 19 reputation, but Kivan is good-aligned anyway. Maybe it's because I infiltrated the bandit camp instead of cutting my way through? BG1 NPCs are really weird sometimes.
As for which chapter I'm in - I just began Chapter 5, having killed the dirty cheater Davaeorn.

Yeah, he probably though you really wanted to join and this angered him.

[Johnny Blade]

I have 19 reputation, but Kivan is good-aligned anyway. Maybe it's because I infiltrated the bandit camp instead of cutting my way through? BG1 NPCs are really weird sometimes.
As for which chapter I'm in - I just began Chapter 5, having killed the dirty cheater Davaeorn.

Did you have Kivan in your party before?

There's a timer that gets set when he joins under some circumstances, it seems to have run out in your game.

A quick, and probably not ideal or maybe not even functioning, fix could be:

CLUAConsole:SetGlobal("FindBandits","GLOBAL",2)

No guarantees, I really don't know much about the game's dialog files. You can always reload if it doesn't work, though.

On the note of 2nd Edition classes, who finds Conjuror's a cool class?

Pff, Wild Mage or Gnome Illusionist all the way.

[Morty]

Did you have Kivan in your party before?

There's a timer that gets set when he joins under some circumstances, it seems to have run out in your game.

A quick, and probably not ideal or maybe not even functioning, fix could be:

CLUAConsole:SetGlobal("FindBandits","GLOBAL",2)

No guarantees, I really don't know much about the game's dialog files. You can always reload if it doesn't work, though.

Well, it's not like I have to talk to him, so it's not much of a problem. I was just using the speak action on my party members for the heck of it.

[Johnny Blade]

Ah, I thought you were trying to recruit him and there's some weird dialog file mixup going on.

[Calemyr]

So, attacking twice as often by endgame isn't doing it for you?

Not to say that Ranger/Cleric isn't better (although the slow progression will be very noticeable on a multi-class), but Fighter/Clerics are good.

And by the end of the game, Yeslick will have the same attacks per round as a pure Fighter and the same highest spell level as a pure Cleric.

How's that? Yeslick is a multi-class fighter, not a dual-class one. He's stuck at specialization, which a ranger provides just as readily. Or are you saying 2 pips in a weapon means something different for a fighter than it does for a ranger?

Anomen, on the other hand... that guy is living, breathing, annoying proof of your concept. A few levels of fighter before turning to Helm means he can grandmaster in a weapon and bring the hammer down on the enemy something fierce. Yeslick is not Anomen.

I don't think you're getting what I disagreed with.

You stated that he's "a subpar divine caster," and that even switching what he's multiclassed with "wouldn't make him as good as a a single-class caster." I say he's the best cleric in the game (Branwen being level 8 instead of level 7 by the end does not make up for her having Spiritual Hammer instead of Dispel Magic and being so much more breakable than Yeslick; Viconia, same notation, with the substitution of magic resistance for Spiritual Hammer and the added note that magic resistance is very much a double-edged sword in BG1. And if you try to argue that only BGTrilogy or some such mod where magic resistance functions as in BG2 counts, I'll consider that justification for basing any arguments about Yeslick on a mod I just invented that gives him 25s in all stats).

I wasn't comparing him to other casters, I was comparing him to himself if he didn't have that fighter multiclass. All other things being equal, he gains specialization and marginal hitpoints, but nothing else from that class, at the cost of half his XP. If his casting isn't weakened by that, I'm curious as to how.

Sure, it's not much - probably only a level or two in BG1's scope, but it is a detriment to his effectiveness as a caster (compared only to what he himself would be capable of as a single-class), for minimal benefit. All I was saying was that making him a ranger costs nothing (because fighter provides nothing the ranger lacks) and gains versatility. Fewer spells per day and potentially lower max spell level than he'd have as a single class, but more options both in casting and in general. Am I really failing so horribly to get this concept across?

[Sharoth]

Is there any word as to when Baldur's Gate II comes out and will it have the Throne of Bhaal with it?

[Johnny Blade]

How's that? Yeslick is a multi-class fighter, not a dual-class one. He's stuck at specialization, which a ranger provides just as readily. Or are you saying 2 pips in a weapon means something different for a fighter than it does for a ranger?

No, I meant he'll attack twice as often as a regular Cleric in the end. Which is not at all a minimal benefit, since Clerics can buff their attack and damage rolls through the roof but are stuck on one attack/round without levels in Fighter or Ranger.

Ranger/Cleric will end up better than Fighter/Cleric, but will take longer to get to the extra half attack level 7 provides.

Anomen, on the other hand... that guy is living, breathing, annoying proof of your concept. A few levels of fighter before turning to Helm means he can grandmaster in a weapon and bring the hammer down on the enemy something fierce. Yeslick is not Anomen.

Anomen wouldn't reach Grand Mastery in BG1, though, nobody does. Also, Anomen is a human, which gives no benefit besides dual-classing. Yeslick gets huge saving throw bonuses for being a dwarf.

Anyway, there are specific level ranges where dual-classing is better than multi-classing and vice versa, and in later BG1, multi-classing is where it's at. Except for Thief/Mage and Fighter/Druid combinations, I think.



Also, what Kish said about Viconia makes me wonder - how does Magic Resistance work in EE?


EDIT: So, I have EE now. Holy ****, quicksaves are actually quick.

[Mx.Silver]

[QUOTE=Calemyr;14372686]How's that? Yeslick is a multi-class fighter, not a dual-class one. He's stuck at specialization, which a ranger provides just as readily. Or are you saying 2 pips in a weapon means something different for a fighter than it does for a ranger?

Anomen, on the other hand... that guy is living, breathing, annoying proof of your concept. A few levels of fighter before turning to Helm means he can grandmaster in a weapon and bring the hammer down on the enemy something fierce. Yeslick is not Anomen.

Anomen can't get Grandmastery. In fact he doesn't even have normal mastery. Unless you alter him with shadow-keeper, obviously.

All I was saying was that making him a ranger costs nothing (because fighter provides nothing the ranger lacks) and gains versatility.

But that doesn't matter because he's a dwarf. He can't be a single-class ranger, let alone a multi-class one.
Yes, he probably would be more effective if you cheated to give him a class combination the game prohibits him from having. And you know what? Literally every single NPC in the game can be similarly improved by messing around in Shadow-keeper. I mean, all the warrior classes would be much more effective if you just set all their physical stats to 18 or better. Heck, all the non-warriors would be well served by getting 16 Con and 18-ish Dex too, and high Strength wouldn't hurt them either.

This isn't a dig at people who alter NPCs with Shadowkeeper, if that's how they play then more power to them. It is also the case though that a lot of people do not edit NPCs with Shadowkeeper, and none of them are likely to be particularly swayed by comparing Yeslick to something he can't be without resorting to shadowkeeper. Because in the context of BG1 and it's NPCs he's not at any disadvantage.