Split from the Boccob challenge, Death of Mystra effects on magic

[TypoNinja]

So, this post

=>TypoNinja

Spoiler

Show

Mystra has died 3 times and in all 3 circumstances the following happened:

• The first time was when Karsus performed his first and last casting of Karsus' Avatar, the most powerful spell ever created in the history of Dungeons and Dragons. When Karsus casted this spell he gained control over magic however due to the sudden influx of knowledge Karsus had realized what he had done, Karsus had the skill with magic, the power, and the knowledge, however he lacked the ability to control the one key factor of all magic through out Toril. The Weave... Karsus lacked control of the weave and this almost destroyed it which would have just turned Toril into a Dead Magic plane... Mystryl as she was called at the time made the ultimate sacrifice and ended her own life... for a total of 5 minutes all magic on Toril effectively ceased and in that time: An Empire fell and a great magical beast of good was corrupted to evil. However, not all was last as Mystryl imparted her divinity in an heir and so the Weave was protected and remained undisturbed til the time of trouble...
  
• Bane and Myrkul, ever curious in finding out Ao, the Highgod's source of power succeed in stealing the Tablet of Fate, Ao angered by this theft called all the gods to his side and demanded that the theif come forth, when no one came forth Ao casted all the god out and sent them to search Toril for the Tablet, save for Helm whom was ordered to defend the Stairway to Heaven. Mystra, Mystryl's successor feeling her precious weave fall to pieces approached the Stairway and requested to pass, Helm responded justly and steadfast in his duties... When Mystra tried to force her way in Helm defended himself and slayed her quickly... all Magic for a short while was disrupted and all spells, magical items, etc became wild and unpredictable (excluding those reliant on the Shadow Weave). After the Tablet was recovered by a band of adventurers the Heroes were rewarded with Divinity and so Mystra's Heir, a women named Midnight became the 3rd incarnation of the Lady of Mystery...
  
• Her last death is a little bit harder to explain but here is what I'll give you... A secret plot between Shar and the recently elevated to deityhood Cyric and for the Death of Mystra, Shar gifted Cyric with a cloak that would hide him from all gaze, even that of a deities, forcing his way into Dweomoheart, Cyric assassinated Mystra and due to Mystra's death her Divine realm was also destroyed casting out multiple gods out of the heavens. Savas was killed in the destruction of Dweomoheart, and the god Azuth was casted into the Ninth layer of Baator where his Divinity was consumed by Asmodeus elevating him to godhood... The Spellplague was released and magic was changed...

In one campaign however because my group hated 4th edition we made all spells effected by the spellplauge instead become impede spells and we were allowed access to old 10th+ spells we created like forever ago... was awesome man



Actually the reason why Evil Wizards in Toril don't chain gate themselves to godhood in toril is because even Ioulaum (the guy who effectively knows everything) doesn't know exactly how divinity works so why should anyone else? I'm confident Evil Wizards have tried to figure out how divinity works but they just can't, it is a closely guarded secret by Ao and the Gods. Divinity in Toril works by 3 Factors: You need the approval of Ao, you need to be worshiped by a hundred to a thousand followers, and you need to possess an inherit Divine Spark gifted by a Divine parent. You need 2 out of 3 to become a God in Toril.



Actually the IC version of the DM is Ao, Mystra is just an extension of that will...

I had a lot of fun with this

Inspired some more thoughts from me, but was off topic, I promised a split off here it is.


I'm not as huge on the actual lore involved, but I've had several discussions with my DM on this topic, so here are my thoughts.

I've always disliked the weave, and more importantly the nearly unlimited power it bestows upon its controller. My thoughts have a few premises.

Magic works a specific way, we call it magic, but its more like a branch of science, it has rules, its interactions are predictable, and while sorcery is inborn, wizardry is based on learning, its a taught skill. To a sufficiently educated student it's a subject of study like any other. Assuming a high enough score to cast of course.

The Weave is not the source of magic, its the means by which magicians access magic, this can be demonstrated by the outer planes. Magic still works there even though the Weave is not present. There's a whole other shadow weave too. Magic fails when the weave is disrupted because our method of controlling the magic is disrupted not the nature of magic it self, otherwise there would have been mass extinctions to go with Weave based magic disruptions. Take the Karsus' Avatar incident as an example. 5 minutes should have seen every magical beast die, and probably all the Fey and Abominations, and all the dragons would have exploded in pretty colors.

I view the Weave as a preventative measure, the history of the Realms includes several massive magical catastrophes, and examples of magic more powerful than 9th level spells. Other realms without the Weave have had magic misused badly have suffered for it in a grand scale. Darksun is a great example of what happens when wizards who don't give a **** have a run of the place.

Us pesky mortals just can't be trusted with unrestricted magic, so it's limited, and by the time a spellcaster gets enough power to escape from the Weaves influence they've become used to thinking about magic a certain way and don't challenge that assumption. Until they get advanced enough to hit Epic magic and the limits fall away.

So a god of magic's primary purpose becomes to keep us from screwing the place up too badly, its why pretty much every TO trick you see on the boards here never happens in cannon. Anybody who tries gets a visit from an avatar with the celestial equivalent of a rolled up news paper.

All of the above incidents in the spoiler text weren't magical disruptions, they were weave disruptions. It's a technicality to be sure, but an important one in this case I think.

Soooo comments?

[Arcanist]

=>TypoNinja

Spoiler

Show

Inspired some more thoughts from me, but was off topic, I promised a split off here it is.

Your welcome

I've always disliked the weave, and more importantly the nearly unlimited power it bestows upon its controller. My thoughts have a few premises.

Magic works a specific way, we call it magic, but its more like a branch of science, it has rules, its interactions are predictable, and while sorcery is inborn, wizardry is based on learning, its a taught skill. To a sufficiently educated student it's a subject of study like any other. Assuming a high enough score to cast of course.

The control over the weave thing is understandable, I mean if my DM dropped Mystra on me and here I am as a T1 Caster in Abier-Toril, I'm gonna be pretty pissed the moment I hear the 2 words I know will end my characters life regardless of any TO I smacked on him/her "Deny Weave" not to say that it isn't completely fair to do, in fact she often does this indiscriminately on her own chosen (Eliminster has literally lost access to magic like 3 times and all of those times were hilarious IMO) but I digress, Wizardry is a learning based skill while Sorcery is a inherit skill, however this was not always the cast at one point the difference between the Sorcery and Wizardry was like trying to find the difference between milk and cream. Long ago existed a breed of Wizard that instead of having to prepare spells every day simple rested and had full access to there entire arsonal of spells known (Not even needing a Spellbook to memorize these spells for the day) These Wizards became known as Arcanist in the days of old Netheril, however after the fall of the great empire of magic did this art fade due to the rules of magic being altered... This is connected to my first comment on the Weave, as stated before by another

=>Alleran

Spoiler

Show

And no, they wouldn't lose their respective abilities, or shouldn't. Torilian spellcasters have the Weave as a safety net. Without it, raw magic is simply too powerful for any individual to use safely beyond the mildest of cantrips, since it would make your brain explode. So the Weave acts as a buffer, allowing spellcasters to access raw magic without going kablooey. There are other magical systems on Toril that accomplish the same purpose, such as "Table Magic" (among others, such as the Shadow Weave). The Weave is just the "simplest and cleanest" method of doing so, as well as the most efficient. Without the Weave, you lose access to magic unless you can create an entirely new system (or switch over to a new system) that will allow you your power again. Conveniently, the Weave functions in the same fashion as regular magic for places like Oerth, so methods of access for the Weave will work there. You'll just be without the safety net (but since you don't need it, you shouldn't run into any difficulty).

The Weave is effectively a safety net to protect casters and the inhabitants of Abier-Toril from the destructive nature of raw magic (known as Spellfire). So effectively, love it or leave it. If you hate the team get out of the stadium, etc

The Weave is not the source of magic, its the means by which magicians access magic, this can be demonstrated by the outer planes. Magic still works there even though the Weave is not present. There's a whole other shadow weave too. Magic fails when the weave is disrupted because our method of controlling the magic is disrupted not the nature of magic it self, otherwise there would have been mass extinctions to go with Weave based magic disruptions. Take the Karsus' Avatar incident as an example. 5 minutes should have seen every magical beast die, and probably all the Fey and Abominations, and all the dragons would have exploded in pretty colors.

Quite right, Magic functions the exact same way all across the Multiverse (except for the rare Dead Magic plane or the outer planes). And yes the Shadow Weave is also a powerful alternative. Why during the Fall magical beast didn't die, Fay didn't get harmed Abominations weren't released/killed and Dragons didn't explode into pretty colors I am not sure, however I believe It is because of these creatures inherit magic that allows them to survive, I can only explain it as that the creatures after centuries eventually created mental inhibitors that allow them perfect control over there magical powers and why again during the Spellplague many arcane casters became ill and weak... but to summarize, I don't exactly know and can only theorize...

I view the Weave as a preventative measure, the history of the Realms includes several massive magical catastrophes, and examples of magic more powerful than 9th level spells. Other realms without the Weave have had magic misused badly have suffered for it in a grand scale. Darksun is a great example of what happens when wizards who don't give a **** have a run of the place.

I'm not to familiar of Darksun, I'll look into it... Oh and Toril actually has Wizards who effectively run the plane and don't give a **** ... We call them Red Wizards

Us pesky mortals just can't be trusted with unrestricted magic, so it's limited, and by the time a spellcaster gets enough power to escape from the Weaves influence they've become used to thinking about magic a certain way and don't challenge that assumption. Until they get advanced enough to hit Epic magic and the limits fall away.

Actually at one point Magic was equally distributed between all races whether these races decided to use them was up to them... After Karsus' Folly the rules for magic remained the same except for humans who were bared from ever casting 10th+ spells (The Elves actually believed that Humans should have been castrated of magic as a whole). After Mystra's 3rd death it isn't exactly known how 10th+Magic/Epic Magic works or is even allowed for that matter, it can only be asssumed that it can be allowed due to the rapid increase in power produced by the Shadovar in recent years. The former sands of the Anauroch desert are now a roving beautiful land that can bring a thaw even to Larlochs cold heart...

So a god of magic's primary purpose becomes to keep us from screwing the place up too badly, its why pretty much every TO trick you see on the boards here never happens in cannon. Anybody who tries gets a visit from an avatar with the celestial equivalent of a rolled up news paper.

inb4 this becomes a "How do I kill Mystra thread" I honestly recommend waiting for an edition change (on a side note: I hear she is coming back in 5th ed FR)