V made the right mistake.

[Paseo H]

Sure, worldwide genocide is terrible, but...

Does anyone honestly believe the Order would have gotten this far if those guys were still alive? The only reason they made it this far was because most of their real illusions and traps ran out. And it's shown that Girard's descendants were just as unreasonable as he, if not even moreso.

The Order would have been impossibly outgunned if these guys were still alive.

[Armitage]

Yes, sure, it's right to kill thousands of people just because otherwise a few of them would inconvenience you...

[Mikhailangelo]

Yes, sure, it's right to kill thousands of people just because otherwise a few of them would inconvenience you...

As the size of the explosion increases the number of social situations which are resolved by it decreases!

[Fishman]

They would ALSO have served as a significant inconvenience to everyone ELSE...and the OOTS doesn't actually WANT the gate, so they don't actually HAVE to succeed here, even failure would put the defenders on high alert.

[Adanedhel]

A Right Mistake is a contradictio in terminis

A convenient mistake however, I will grant you that :)

[ti'esar]

Yes, sure, it's right to kill thousands of people just because otherwise a few of them would inconvenience you...

He's not arguing that Familicide was good as such, merely that the results - or at least the destruction of the Draketooths - may have worked out in the Order's favor.

That said, I disagree, for the reasons given by Fishman - they may have been too paranoid to cooperate with the Order, but they certainly would have gotten in everyone else's way as well. Heck, I don't know if anyone would have even found the pyramid in the first place were the Draketooths still around.

[RMS Oceanic]

Paseo, the trouble with your premise is the Order's ease of progress also indicates how easy it will be for the Linear Guild and Team Evil to get that far too. If the Draketooth Clan were alive and in the mind to attack all comers regardless of what they were doing there, I think Roy would have the sense to withdraw and not let the Clan waste resources on them they could use to attack the other parties, with the Order possibly attacking them from behind.

[Icedaemon]

Even if the Draketooths had opposed the Order, Roy would have been smart enough to name-drop Xykon. The paranoid ginger family would have looked up the Lich - given how many of them were probably magi, at least some were likely good enough at scrying to discover that the lich had killed two of their ancestors old friends and was after the gates.

[Anarion]

It's possible that Paseo is correct in a more long-term sense. Ever since Blackwing told us what he saw in that rift, it hasn't been clear what's really going on with the snarl or the Order of the Scribble. So it may be the case that making the gate vulnerable, which will perhaps lead to its destruction, was the (accidentally) correct move in the long run.

[Mike Havran]

Sure, worldwide genocide is terrible, but...

Does anyone honestly believe the Order would have gotten this far if those guys were still alive? The only reason they made it this far was because most of their real illusions and traps ran out. And it's shown that Girard's descendants were just as unreasonable as he, if not even moreso.

The Order would have been impossibly outgunned if these guys were still alive.

Huh? The Order's mission was primarily to warn Girard about Xykon. They did not need to get to the pyramid at all. They would have completed their mission the very moment Draketooths scried the area after the booby trap had gone off and saw the message in sand.

Since Draketooths are fairly paranoid, they would be on watch against the Order, Sapphire Guard and Xykon. Still, mission accomplished.

So, the bottom line: V utterly screwed things up.

[Mike Havran]

It's possible that Paseo is correct in a more long-term sense. Ever since Blackwing told us what he saw in that rift, it hasn't been clear what's really going on with the snarl or the Order of the Scribble. So it may be the case that making the gate vulnerable, which will perhaps lead to its destruction, was the (accidentally) correct move in the long run.

Would that redeem Miko's destruction of Soon's gate as well?

I don't agree with your "long run" perspective. Since we know that the story will have a happy ending (for clearly-good character anyway), technically everything the protagonists do is correct in the long run.

[B. Dandelion]

No just no. Not in practical terms for reasons already described. But even more emphatically in thematic terms. I very much doubt that the strip would wind up endorsing a message of "genocide is bad, but in this case it worked out for the best." You just cannot get around how starkly political a statement like that is, and I don't think OOTS is the kind of comic that would make it, or try to repackage it as some kind of message about utilitarianism or silver linings or what have you. It's not gonna endorse genocide period, and that includes not endorsing it by "ironically" suggesting genocide solved their problems but was of course still bad.

[Paseo H]

Huh? The Order's mission was primarily to warn Girard about Xykon. They did not need to get to the pyramid at all. They would have completed their mission the very moment Draketooths scried the area after the booby trap had gone off and saw the message in sand.

Since Draketooths are fairly paranoid, they would be on watch against the Order, Sapphire Guard and Xykon. Still, mission accomplished.

So, the bottom line: V utterly screwed things up.

I'm looking at it from the omniscient perspective of the reader.

We know darn well that Xykon has both the means and motivation to steamroll this. If he could pwn Dorukon, I don't see Girard's red headed stepchildren faring better.

It's a bit less certain of a stomp with Tarquin, but he's also very genre savvy and has powerful friends, so I'm not fancying Girard's chances there either.

Therefore, we know that the best way to handle this is for the Order to waltz in and do whatever it takes to right the situation permanently.

And for that, Girard's clan needs to be out of the way because while I kinda sympathize with him, this is too big to to be hardnosed about, which you know they would be.

[theNater]

We know darn well that Xykon has both the means and motivation to steamroll this. If he could pwn Dorukon, I don't see Girard's red headed stepchildren faring better.

Soon's paladin order fared better than Dorukon. Why do you assume Girard's defenses were less potent than Soon's?

[Paseo H]

They fared better...after Xykon totally trolled them, sending them to an early grave, and came back as a ghost samurai army.

I'm pretty sure Girard had nothing that can compare to that.

[Hopeless]

Girard is an illusionist, exactly how many illusions actually work on undead?

Now we have Malack against Redcloak and I suspect Tarquin might be more than wary about allying with Xykon for obvisous reasons since I suspect he might actually know something about the lich given Nale mentioned working for someone who is clearly quite powerful and his fellow adventuring party has at least one psionicist so at the very least he would have asked about the lich since he has proven very genre savvy so he'll know whats eventually got to be coming which may explain why he's allowing Nale free rein since he knows Nale well enough to expect the doublecross and of course he's set up the counter measure for that eventuality...

Yes as unexpected as it may seem i think they're right I don't see Girard and his family being anything other than a threat to the order and as Elan pointed out once Nale mentioned their link to Soon's Paladin's and the fact they have built their family line by marrying outsiders before kidnapping their own children and as much money as they can carry they're hardly going to listen to reason any more than Girard himself!

Still I was expecting them to run into Haley's dad and his friend, I wonder where they got to?

[RMS Oceanic]

They fared better...after Xykon totally trolled them, sending them to an early grave, and came back as a ghost samurai army.

I'm pretty sure Girard had nothing that can compare to that.

With respect, that's a pretty broad assumption to make. Apart from the fact we may never know how effective Girard's defences would have been compared to the others, there may yet be some mechanism that proves troublesome for whoever encounters it first.

[Whiffet]

They fared better...after Xykon totally trolled them, sending them to an early grave, and came back as a ghost samurai army.

I'm pretty sure Girard had nothing that can compare to that.

Each gate so far has had some sort of amazing defense that slowed or stopped the bad guys. Dorukan's Gate had the rune that kept Team Evil from using it, Soon's had the ghost-paladins, and

Spoiler

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Lirian's had the Guardian Virus.

I'd bet that Girard did, in fact, put something in place that would compare to that.

[FujinAkari]

Even if the Draketooths had opposed the Order, Roy would have been smart enough to name-drop Xykon. The paranoid ginger family would have looked up the Lich - given how many of them were probably magi, at least some were likely good enough at scrying to discover that the lich had killed two of their ancestors old friends and was after the gates.

Cloister says hi :)

[theNater]

Girard is an illusionist, exactly how many illusions actually work on undead?

Most of them. Undead are immune to mind-affecting illusions, which use illusory effects as an entry point to cause charms, stuns, damage, death from fright, or similar effects. Spells that disguise things, hide things, or make things that aren't there seem to be there work just fine. There's also a handful of illusion spells that use material from the Plane of Shadow to create real effects(as part of a larger illusory effect), which will work on undead just fine.

Each gate so far has had some sort of amazing defense that slowed or stopped the bad guys. Dorukan's Gate had the rune that kept Team Evil from using it, Soon's had the ghost-paladins, and

Spoiler

Show

Lirian's had the Guardian Virus.

I'd bet that Girard did, in fact, put something in place that would compare to that.

Exactly. There is no support for a claim that Girard's defenses, as put in place by Girard, would be ignorable by Xykon.

[t209]

He did not make a right choice. The draketooths could have guided them through the traps and shot down Linear Guild.
But then this could not be an outcome since Draketooths are probably xephobic and chaotic family and massacre the OOTS too.
Edit: forget about the xenophobic part, I am going with probable time delay with bound and interrogated.

[Psyren]

Things only look semi-rosy now because the competent villains haven't arrived yet. Once Xykon and Redcloak pop in, the Order will seriously be up a creek.

[Mike Havran]

I'm looking at it from the omniscient perspective of the reader.

We know darn well that Xykon has both the means and motivation to steamroll this. If he could pwn Dorukon, I don't see Girard's red headed stepchildren faring better.
...
Therefore, we know that the best way to handle this is for the Order to waltz in and do whatever it takes to right the situation permanently.

We don't know that. At the second gate,

Spoiler

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Xykon had Redcloak and a big damn army of undead when he attacked Dorukan and knew exactly what to expect from him. He won, also due to not-so-optimal duelling strategy of Dorukan (it was discussed somewhere)

.

Xykon had Redcloak and a big damn army of hobgoblins when he attacked Soon. He barely survived (had Shojo not sent Miko against the Order, Xykon would have been probably destroyed right now).

Now, Xykon has just Redcloak and MitD, and would be unaware of the entire group of paranoid Girard's descendants. In-universe I would put his chances of besting the defenders to about 50% tops, and chances of getting the Gate 0%, because it will be booby trapped.

From reader's point of view is, of course, positive that Draketooths are out of the way, because the protagonists get another opportunity to shine.

[B. Dandelion]

I have a hard time getting past the notion that this idea is not so much rooted in current observation of what's going on (if we don't know the layout of the temple or the location of the Gate, how do we have any measurement of "far" by which we can say the Order "have come so far"?) but an absolute desire to see it happen that V's use of Familicide winds up being beneficial in some sense. Basically for no reason other than the notion is incredibly provocative and thus appealing -- it "goes against the grain," it "challenges the common wisdom".

Because it is provocative, and because it's antithetical to the simple and direct message of "genocide is bad," I think you can safely rule out the strip ever intentionally spelling it out that Familicide saved the day. I also think it's unlikely that it will embrace the lesser notion of "Familicide was helpful here and here only, but on the whole made the Order's job harder". Rich was by his own words reportedly disturbed by the idea that the state of fantasy roleplaying was such that he felt a need to make the case against genocide, and it's very clear that there are a substantial minority of readers who refused to acknowledge how evil Familicide was until the fate of the Draketooth clan was revealed. Why undermine his own message?

Of course the strip might wind up unintentionally allowing an argument that the world would have been doomed without Familicide. But I think that regardless of whether any such argument is really supportable, you will see people making it. Because, again, it's provocative and appeals to the sense of a controversial stance being a lone voice of sanity against a mindless politically correct horde. For that reason, I find arguments in that vein suspect to begin with.

This one in particular isn't even grasping at straws because it fails to even identify what straws are notable here. We don't know how "far" they are. We don't know how "far" they would have gotten dealing with the Draketooths. The latest strip doesn't even deal with the Order's progress but the Linear Guild, who are also making equal progress which undermines the entire notion of progress being good. The Order never necessarily had to find and station themselves next to the Gate in order to defend it. The best defense is often preventative -- warning the Draketooths would have been helpful in that regard, and had they lived the Order would have already put them on alert by setting off the trap in the desert. Preventative efforts were the bulk of the Draketooth defenses in the first place, and they've been shot to hell thanks to Vaarsuvius.

It's possible that, had the Draketooths lived, they would have been as hostile to the Order as anyone who truly wanted to seize a Gate for themselves, rather than prevent a Gate from falling into the wrong hands. That uncertain thesis does not hold up the additional claim that the Gate's better off with its original guardians dead. We don't know how well the Draketooths could have held off the Guild, but it's not like the Order's doing a bang-up job of it thus far either. Shouldn't we be waiting until they, I don't know, effectively beat back the intruders or something before we start crowing about how much better things are going with them in charge and the Draketooths dead (...and Draketooth corpses assisting the enemy)?

The only thing sustaining this theory is its inherent appeal to audacity.

[137beth]

For reasons already stated, I don't think genecide was a correct mistake.

However, fleeing with a passwall instead of climbing/flying out of the pit would was the correct choice, so he made the correct mistake in misinterpreting the mummy's mutterings.

[Forikroder]

Sure, worldwide genocide is terrible, but...

Does anyone honestly believe the Order would have gotten this far if those guys were still alive? The only reason they made it this far was because most of their real illusions and traps ran out. And it's shown that Girard's descendants were just as unreasonable as he, if not even moreso.

The Order would have been impossibly outgunned if these guys were still alive.

not neccesarily we have no idea what level the draketooths are so its likely there magic wouldnt be enough to keep the spellcasters the order has access to away from the pyramid

epic level spellcasters dont grow from trees theres no evidence that the draketooths had any high level illusionists and certainly no illusionists strong enough to stop them from jsut waltzing through everything with true seeing

it would have taken the order longer to find the pyramid but they would have eventually

also its possible that some of Girards epic magic IS still active which would ahve been the real obstacle for the order its highly likely that if the order had reached the Ziggurat they would have been able to explain things to the draketooths in satisfactory enough terms (the draketooths might even have been watching them since they set off Girards trap in the desert so its even possible the Draketooths would have been willing to talk with the order) the draketooths may be ian level paranoid (emphasis on the MAY part) but there still spellcasters who can tell if someones lying

[ThePhantasm]

Why does this feel like a "morally justified" thread?

No, V made a horrible mistake and she is paying the consequences moment by moment.

[Porthos]

They fared better...after Xykon totally trolled them, sending them to an early grave, and came back as a ghost samurai army.

This would be the same Xykon who came within six seconds of Final Death, yes?

I'm pretty sure Girard had nothing that can compare to that.

Why?

[Forikroder]

We don't know that. At the second gate,

Spoiler

Show

Xykon had Redcloak and a big damn army of undead when he attacked Dorukan and knew exactly what to expect from him. He won, also due to not-so-optimal duelling strategy of Dorukan (it was discussed somewhere)

.

Xykon had Redcloak and a big damn army of hobgoblins when he attacked Soon. He barely survived (had Shojo not sent Miko against the Order, Xykon would have been probably destroyed right now).

Now, Xykon has just Redcloak and MitD, and would be unaware of the entire group of paranoid Girard's descendants. In-universe I would put his chances of besting the defenders to about 50% tops, and chances of getting the Gate 0%, because it will be booby trapped.

From reader's point of view is, of course, positive that Draketooths are out of the way, because the protagonists get another opportunity to shine.

woa woa woa woa this is completely false

Xykon knows the exact coordinates of the gate, hes going to teleport literally on top of the Ziggurat so he right there bypasses 90% of the gates defences in one spell

with his epic magic not a single spell anyone in the draketooth clan can cast will faze him unless there somehow epic level spellcasters in there

the only possible threat to Xykon is Girards magic which possibly is not even active still

to Xykon the gate is practically unguarded especially with the MiTD to walk ahead of them and soak traps

I'd bet that Girard did, in fact, put something in place that would compare to that.

there ahve been mention of riddles, i wouldnt be surprised if Girard devised a spell that hid the gate in an alternate dimension or in some sort of maze that was impossible to cheat and in order to get into that dimension you had to be able to solve the riddles and puzzles

[Anarion]

Things only look semi-rosy now because the competent villains haven't arrived yet. Once Xykon and Redcloak pop in, the Order will seriously be up a creek.

I'm confused why several people are convinced that Xykon is going to get involved in the current events at the gate. The oracle's prediction says that between Girard's gate and Kraagor's gate, Xykon will be at Girard's first. But that doesn't mean now. The gate could get destroyed due to IFCC intervention, everyone leaves, and then we see Xykon teleport there to find a desolate ruin, without even having any corpses left to animate thanks to Malack.

It's possible that Xykon will put in an appearance soon, but I'm not sure that the current scene would benefit from that many more personalities in it. Tarquin and Nale are already looking to butt heads pretty hard.