OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread

[Anarion]

Milgram and Stanford present pretty good cases that humans are irrational creatures easily led to perform monstrous acts by the right set of circumstances. If that makes most humans 'horrible monsters', then sure.

I'm not going to argue that Familicide wasn't a monstrously Evil act, or that it doesn't send V's alignment plummeting, but she's far from rock bottom.

I really think those experiments are an entirely different beast and don't apply to this conversation, even though I probably come down on the same side as you. But both of those experiments were about obedience to authority, which is a specific situation where people follow because they trust the person giving them directions and therefore put aside their own intuition and morality.

V's problem was the opposite. (s)he had total freedom to act as (s)he pleased, got drunk with power, and stopped thinking.

Except, as I pointed out earlier, V was offered a method of saving her family without leasing her soul to the IFCC - and she refused to take it due to her pride.

That method was terrible though. It relied on several unknowns, including the time it would take to soulbond the children, Aarindarious level of skill and (more importantly) availability, and V's ability to die, get revived and effectively relay a message (long-winded elf is long-winded).

I grant you, V didn't think about any of those things and certainly was proud when (s)he took the deal, but it was a deal that was correct to take even if (s)he had thought about it. I'm not even sure Kyrie was correct about giving up the power. Attacking Xykon was wrong, but using the magic to reunite the order, help the Azure city fleet and then giving it up probably would have been fine. And even attacking Xykon ended up freeing O-chul. V was in a bad situation, actually was given the option of personal sacrifice to help a lot of people, and blew it by making one stupid, revenge-driven mistake that obliterated any other good that may come of what (s)he did.

[Forikroder]

Back to the comic ... from a purely tactical standpoint, now would be a good time for Durkon to try a Sending to V. Nothing says "Successful Ambush Preparation" like a long-winded wizard, and I'd like to find out whether an X-Eyed Mummy can read Explosive Runes.

nothing saids 10 minute cast time like sending

pretty sure the LG wont drag there feet THAT much

[Math_Mage]

I really think those experiments are an entirely different beast and don't apply to this conversation, even though I probably come down on the same side as you. But both of those experiments were about obedience to authority, which is a specific situation where people follow because they trust the person giving them directions and therefore put aside their own intuition and morality.

V's problem was the opposite. (s)he had total freedom to act as (s)he pleased, got drunk with power, and stopped thinking.

Actually, that's exactly how I would interpret the prison experiment. The prison guards didn't commit abusive acts because they trusted the authority of the experimenters, they did it because they were given total control of other people.

I included the Milgram experiment for completeness.

[Gusion]

nothing saids 10 minute cast time like sending

pretty sure the LG wont drag there feet THAT much

It is probable that Durkon still has that scroll of sending waiting for an emergency. Of course, he may not view this as an emergency... but that's a different question.

[Forikroder]

It is probable that Durkon still has that scroll of sending waiting for an emergency. Of course, he may not view this as an emergency... but that's a different question.

i think V is a little to crazy to respond right now anyway

[ti'esar]

...what?

I'll just repeat my previous advice here.

[denthor]

When I saw the title of the last comic I thought of this.???

[Prof. X]

The fact that the mummy just happened to quote Sabine in saying "Your fault" Was rib-cracking funny. But hey, this is the order of the stick we're talking about, what are the odds of that? like one in a million!

[Gift Jeraff]

As somebody remarked last thread, the less time you spend trying to analyze what that guy says, the happier you'll be.

There's something fun about trying to make sense of it all.

Maybe I'm just a masochist.

[windweaver]

I did NOT know that Sabine had rogue levels. Sigh I know, old info is old. Anyway, I'm liking Blackwing more and more. He's got a loooooooong way to go before V's any use again though.

[ORione]

"Fleeing in a blind panic is only marginally better than moping."

If that were on a t-shirt, I would buy it.

[rewinn]

i think V is a little to crazy to respond right now anyway

Possibly true, but Roy doesn't know that. All Roy knows is that his biggest gun is missing.

Currently the Order is out of contact with the enemy, and fleeing. I would suggest ducking into a side room, Stone Shaping the door into oblivion, and Sending out an urgent call. The party members other than Durkon can spend the time setting up an ambush or something.

[Forikroder]

Possibly true, but Roy doesn't know that. All Roy knows is that his biggest gun is missing.

Currently the Order is out of contact with the enemy, and fleeing. I would suggest ducking into a side room, Stone Shaping the door into oblivion, and Sending out an urgent call. The party members other than Durkon can spend the time setting up an ambush or something.

there are so many variables we cant know that could or could not make it impossible that theres no point in discussing wether tehy send to V especially since we already know theres no point

[EmperorSarda]

Maybe it has been said before, but once Xykon and Redcloak show up, and Tarquin and Malack find out that they are Nale's "contacts" about the rituals... Lets just say Tarquin will feel foolish for not having asked about the contacts. And Nale will really be in trouble.

[Mordokai]

I'll just repeat my previous advice here.

Be kind enough and tell me what that was, since I didn't read the whole thread and am too lazy to go looking back for it atm.

[t209]

As we see from their last words, either they are blaming V or Draketooths were not a big happy family and constantly bickering eachother.
Edit: Nope, probably just zombie talk.

[Bulldog Psion]

Be kind enough and tell me what that was, since I didn't read the whole thread and am too lazy to go looking back for it atm.

You'll just get frustrated if you try to figure out what t209 is talking about.

[Kish]

As we see from their last words, either they are blaming V or Draketooths were not a big happy family and constantly bickering eachother.
Edit: Nope, probably just zombie talk.

Everything a mummy Draketooth has said yet has been an echo of a couple words someone living had just said.

"Your fault" is part of what Nale just said to Sabine. That, and no other reason, is why the mummy who fell on Vaarsuvius said "Your fault" while falling.

[2xMachina]

Would be interesting if it said: Not your fault.

[zimmerwald1915]

Would be interesting if it said: Not your fault.

No it wouldn't. That's sort of the point.

[lio45]

Be kind enough and tell me what that was, since I didn't read the whole thread and am too lazy to go looking back for it atm.

I've "been kind enough" to go back and find it. I consider it a public service announcement. ;)

As somebody remarked last thread, the less time you spend trying to analyze what that guy says, the happier you'll be.

[rewinn]

there are so many variables we cant know that could or could not make it impossible that theres no point in discussing wether tehy send to V especially since we already know theres no point

Wait. So what you're saying is that if you're running a party, and a party member is missing, then you decide there's no point in trying to contact that party member because the people reading the comic know something you don't know?

Also, let me point out that (casting time aside) the point to Roy telling V the tactical situation and inquiring as to V's location is obvious.

[zimmerwald1915]

Also, let me point out that (casting time aside) the point to Roy telling V the tactical situation and inquiring as to V's location is obvious.

A bit of nitpicking, but Roy wouldn't be doing either of those things. Apart from not being able to cast the spell, he has to supervise the setting-up of the ambush. Durkon could cast the spell but he apparently thinks he has better things to do. Elan hasn't got Sending on his spell list nor a decent UMD that we know of; besides, he'd probably screw it up. The person most likely to Send to V, if anyone thinks of doing so at all, would be Haley.

[Forikroder]

Wait. So what you're saying is that if you're running a party, and a party member is missing, then you decide there's no point in trying to contact that party member because the people reading the comic know something you don't know?

Also, let me point out that (casting time aside) the point to Roy telling V the tactical situation and inquiring as to V's location is obvious.

we dont know if Durkon has sending prepared
we dont know if Durkon still has that sending scroll
we dont know what job Durkon has in preparing the ambush
we dont know what spell Durkon was refrencing and how long it would take to cast
we dont know aside from that spell how many other spells hes going to cast
we dont know aside from spells what preparations Durkon needs to do

[rewinn]

A bit of nitpicking, but Roy wouldn't be doing either of those things. Apart from not being able to cast the spell....

My friend, Roy is the unit commander. He would tell whoever can cast the spell to ask V certain things; that's the clear meaning of what I wrote.

we dont know if Durkon has sending prepared
we dont know if Durkon still has that sending scroll
we dont know what job Durkon has in preparing the ambush
we dont know what spell Durkon was refrencing and how long it would take to cast
we dont know aside from that spell how many other spells hes going to cast
we dont know aside from spells what preparations Durkon needs to do

NOW what you're saying is that We, the readers, don't know what Roy knows. That's true, and irrelevant.

Nothing that you two have written in any way disposes of the simple fact that Roy, the unit commander, is currently in a difficult situation and missing his heavy artillery (...not to mention friend...) and that therefore a very logical thing for him to do would be to contact said powerhouse (...through such intermediaries as is necessary...).

Sheesh! Is this really even debateable?

[EmperorSarda]

NOW what you're saying is that We, the readers, don't know what Roy knows. That's true, and irrelevant.

Nothing that you two have written in any way disposes of the simple fact that Roy, the unit commander, is currently in a difficult situation and missing his heavy artillery (...not to mention friend...) and that therefore a very logical thing for him to do would be to contact said powerhouse (...through such intermediaries as is necessary...).

Sheesh! Is this really even debateable?

Here is what we do know though. Assuming no scroll, Sending takes 10 minutes to cast. Which they most likely don't have.
If V is unconscious or dead, sending doesn't work. If V is on another plane, then there is no point to Send to V. If we operate under the assumption that V is invisible in the desert and wasn't ambushed, then yeah maybe a sending could help. But again, the 10 minute casting time figures into that. And if V were invisible in the desert, Roy trusts V enough to act as backup.

As Roy is operating under the assumption that V ran out of the desert instead of further into it, there is no point contacting V until the battle is over. Finding out how a friend takes lesser precedence than preparing the ambush where time is the factor.

So, no. Sending to V doesn't make much tactical sense.

[zimmerwald1915]

My friend, Roy is the unit commander. He would tell whoever can cast the spell to ask V certain things; that's the clear meaning of what I wrote.

Roy being the commander means he has ten other things he needs to do, each requiring his immediate attention, several of them involving the supervision of zany and incompetant subordinates. Composing a Sending is not one of them.

Nothing that you two have written in any way disposes of the simple fact that Roy, the unit commander, is currently in a difficult situation and missing his heavy artillery (...not to mention friend...) and that therefore a very logical thing for him to do would be to contact said powerhouse (...through such intermediaries as is necessary...).

Sheesh! Is this really even debateable?

Of course it is. First of all, Roy is under severe time pressure. He doesn't know how quickly the Guild will happen on the Order's position. He cannot afford to take time out from ambush preparations to compose a Sending, have it cast, have it delivered, and hear the response. This has been stated, by Roy himself, no less, in the comic. "We'll need to figure out later what happened to [Vaarsuvius]." Even if Roy did feel he could afford to contact V, he has no reason to believe V's in a position to help the rest of the party. That is, he doesn't know where V is, and since V lacks the ability to appear at Roy's side in a wink, he could be too far away or across too many barriers to make it to Roy in time to matter. Of course, Roy doesn't know this, but this is exactly the case. What's more, V just spent the only spell that might have obviated those barriers in order to flee in blind panic. Furthermore, an ambush presents a tactical problem where V is not only unnecessary, but possibly an active hindrance. Consider that Roy envisions engaging the Guild in a hit-and-run battle in close quarters. In such a situation, the large area of effect spells that are V's trademark would be just as likely to injure the Order as the Guild. More likely, in fact, given Tarquin's fire resistance or immunity, which, given V's incapacitation hitherto, the limitations of a Sending, and her not having seen the initial engagement, she would not be likely to know about. Not to mention that V isn't allowed to contribute in any meaningful fashion (yes, I'm being facetious, but this is practically my mantra ).

Here is what we do know though. Assuming no scroll, Sending takes 10 minutes to cast. Which they most likely don't have.

Haley had a scroll of Sending in strip 834, given to her by Durkon. We haven't seen it used. We cannot assume no scroll, though I agree that trying to Send to V is a poor tactical decision.

[rewinn]

Roy being the commander means he has ten other things he needs to do, each requiring his immediate attention, several of them involving the supervision of zany and incompetant subordinates. Composing a Sending is not one of them.

1. Speaking is a free action
2. Roy doesn't have to compose a sending. Here's how it goes:
Durkon/Haley, contact V. We need some passwalls fast!

Roy's team is zany but all of them are good at their job.

Now, the 10 minute casting time is an issue, as has been thoroughly noted above. That's why Roy needs to break contact with the enemy (done!), go to ground (in progress) and call in the heavy artillery.

There is no serious argument that V wouldn't be a major asset in the ongoing battle.

[EmperorSarda]

1. Speaking is a free action
2. Roy doesn't have to compose a sending. Here's how it goes:
Durkon/Haley, contact V. We need some passwalls fast!

Cause clearly Roy is aware of each and every spell Durkon and and Vaarsuvius have prepared for the day.

In other words, that's not likely. Party leaders don't dictate nor are told which spells the casters have prepared. Otherwise Durkon wouldn't have to tell Roy that Speak with Dead is an option.

Now, the 10 minute casting time is an issue, as has been thoroughly noted above. That's why Roy needs to break contact with the enemy (done!), go to ground (in progress) and call in the heavy artillery.

There is no serious argument that V wouldn't be a major asset in the ongoing battle.

Though Roy has broken contact with the Linear Guild, he most likely does not have so large a head start. Even if he did, Sending to V when he suspects V could be on another plane or dead. So to him, it's useless/

[Majnun]

"Fleeing in a blind panic is only marginally better than moping."

If that were on a t-shirt, I would buy it.

That would be a good t-shirt.

I hope V gets it together soon. What do you think the chances of V coming clean to the rest of the party are in the near future? I mean, eventually the whole Famliacide story has to come out...