V made the right mistake.

[Emperordaniel]

but the point still remains, that DAvid lacks in any sort of Xwing fighter or any sort of practice with it

Just to point out, Luke also lacked an X-Wing fighter; he was given one of them to use in the battle like, 15 minutes before the battle started. 12-24 hours, at most.

[Dr.Epic]

Sure, worldwide genocide is terrible, but...

Does anyone honestly believe the Order would have gotten this far if those guys were still alive? The only reason they made it this far was because most of their real illusions and traps ran out. And it's shown that Girard's descendants were just as unreasonable as he, if not even moreso.

The Order would have been impossibly outgunned if these guys were still alive.

You know who else would have been outgunned: the Linear Guild. You know, the bad guys trying to get the Gate.

[Paseo H]

You know who else would have been outgunned: the Linear Guild. You know, the bad guys trying to get the Gate.

Under normal circumstances, sure, but Tarquin and Malack are with them.

And the Kobold, who for all we know might really be Lord Pun Pun in disguise.

[Incom]

And with an epic level lich practically knocking on the door, to boot.

[theNater]

Under normal circumstances, sure, but Tarquin and Malack are with them.

So far, gate defenses are 3 for 3 in terms of significantly inconveniencing Xykon, while the Order is 2 for 3. Meanwhile, while we haven't seen Tarquin square off against gate defenses, the Order is 0 for 2 in encounters against him.

Why, then, do you believe that the Order is better equipped to deal with these threats than the gate defenders would have been?

[Forikroder]

Under normal circumstances, sure, but Tarquin and Malack are with them.

And the Kobold, who for all we know might really be Lord Pun Pun in disguise.

Z is the bigger wildcard, his entire build is centered around dealing with wizards so if the draketooths are lower level then V then numbers wont help them beat his spell resistance

Just to point out, Luke also lacked an X-Wing fighter; he was given one of them to use in the battle like, 15 minutes before the battle started. 12-24 hours, at most.

good point, Roy VS Xykon would be like Luke against the deathstar without the rebel alliance and the millenium falcon backing him up (which also means no X wing)

also, although i know its not canon in the first movie Anakin was able to pod race because he had super jedi reflexes so even without special jedi training they still get super boosts from the force so that explains Lukes accuracy

[Emperordaniel]

good point, Roy VS Xykon would be like Luke against the deathstar without the rebel alliance and the millenium falcon backing him up (which also means no X wing)

I think Roy does have a "Rebel Alliance" of his own - the Order of the Stick. Whether they're nearly as effective as the real Rebel Alliance (or the "Azurite Rebel Alliance") remains to be seen.

also, although i know its not canon in the first movie Anakin was able to pod race because he had super jedi reflexes so even without special jedi training they still get super boosts from the force so that explains Lukes accuracy

Flying a podracer through the Tatooinian desert is not exactly the same thing as flying and aiming an X-Wing to blow up the Death Star.

[theNater]

Z is the bigger wildcard, his entire build is centered around dealing with wizards so if the draketooths are lower level then V then numbers wont help them beat his spell resistance

Spell resistance doesn't help against most illusions. Using illusions to lure Z into a mundane trap would negate his resistance handily.

[Winter]

Flying a podracer through the Tatooinian desert is not exactly the same thing as flying and aiming an X-Wing to blow up the Death Star.

Sure it is. If you practice bullseyeing Womb Rats while flying...

[Emperordaniel]

Sure it is. If you practice bullseyeing Womb Rats while flying...

I think Luke was flying a T-16, not a podracer, when he was shooting those womp rats. T-16s are are nearly twice as fast as the average podracer.

[Jay R]

It's worth pointing out that the great adventure stories are about a hero beating a villain he shouldn't be able to beat. Harry Potter's story is tense because he's not just fighting Draco. Four musketeers shouldn't be able to stop the plots of the cardinal / prime minister. Who'd be interested in a final battle in which Luke has a bigger death Star and just attacks straight on? Frodo would not be famous for beating the Sackville-Bagginses, or anybody else somebody with an appropriate CR.

[Forikroder]

I think Roy does have a "Rebel Alliance" of his own - the Order of the Stick. Whether they're nearly as effective as the real Rebel Alliance (or the "Azurite Rebel Alliance") remains to be seen.

thats what ive been saying this whole time, Roy could never beat Xykon alone thats why he made a team to back him up

Roy cant beat Xykon but the OoTS might pull it off

Flying a podracer through the Tatooinian desert is not exactly the same thing as flying and aiming an X-Wing to blow up the Death Star.

the one thing they both have in common is the force can help perform both tasks

Spell resistance doesn't help against most illusions. Using illusions to lure Z into a mundane trap would negate his resistance handily.

they have a dude with a ring of trueseeing handy

[theNater]

they have a dude with a ring of trueseeing handy

Which can be overcome with a little clever use of auditory, olfactory, and thermal illusions.

[Forikroder]

Which can be overcome with a little clever use of auditory, olfactory, and thermal illusions.

which im pretty sure dont exist

and even assuming they do exist i dont think the LG would go somewhere else cause they smell something bad

[Winter]

thats what ive been saying this whole time, Roy could never beat Xykon alone thats why he made a team to back him u

You reply to "Rebel Alliance". Please note that the rebel alliance was a band of unwashed kids when compared to the Empire. If Luke alone or with the Alliance, when compared to the Empire, they were outgunned.

And please note that the alliance got crushed when the emporer set his mind to it - they only got lucky with the first Death Star and won because Luke was the "Chosen One they could not calculate with" and they totally lost at Endor. Yes, the Alliance mustered all the crappy two or three dozen capital ships they had and they were completely outgunned. It was a fiasko, an utter military failure.
They only survived because the Emperor was an idiot to invite them too early and then did not fully crush them because he wanted to play with them to lure Luke over to his side.

Your "I have said so all along" misses the point of the scene in Star Wars you base your "I have been saying it all along" on - (and, fyi, just as you, at least this seems to me, miss most points you argue for in this thread).

Stories do get interesting because the heroes face a foe way beyond their abilities to face - and they win due to friendship, extreme hardship, skill and good plans. They struggle against the tide they cannot stop. No one cares about a victory on equal footing. So yes, nothing Roy can muster will be able to stand up to Xykon, he can just improve his oods from "zero" to "just believable he could win".

PS: Yes, you are still on my ignore list, I just see your arguments in quotes from others and some of them really cause itches in my fingers. This time I missed my saving throw and replied.

[Dr.Epic]

Under normal circumstances, sure, but Tarquin and Malack are with them.

I'm still not convinced. Not to mention, the Order could probably convince them who they were, what they were doing, and get them to help them against the Linear Guild.

And the Kobold, who for all we know might really be Lord Pun Pun in disguise.

That desk jockey? Yeah, okay. And Belkar is secretly a level 4 super saiyan. What? His backstory in Origins of PCs is very vague. For all we know it could be true.

[theNater]

which im pretty sure dont exist

and even assuming they do exist i dont think the LG would go somewhere else cause they smell something bad

Major Image can create sounds, smells, and thermal effects.

As for moving because of smells, anybody who spends much time in caves knows that the smell of rotten eggs means it is time to leave before you die of hydrogen sulfide poisoning.

[Forikroder]

Major Image can create sounds, smells, and thermal effects.

As for moving because of smells, anybody who spends much time in caves knows that the smell of rotten eggs means it is time to leave before you die of hydrogen sulfide poisoning.

not in DnD that just means get ready for some fort saves and keep pushing

[theNater]

not in DnD that just means get ready for some fort saves and keep pushing

Pushing on through in hopes of getting to the end of the gas before failing too many saves is a good way to get killed. The smart thing is to back off and either find a way to disperse the poison, or to buff against it.

[The Underlord]

Oops, did my Detect Magic (a cantrip) just detected all your illusion auras?

Well if you are in a dungeon made by an epic spellcaster, are you really surprised that parts of the dungeon are magical(Since we do not know what the illusion were, we can't really gauge the effectiveness of detect magic, if say their was an ancient dragon in front of you, are you surprised that it may seem magical when it probably has buffs)? As far as the other ones, keep in mind that their were many spellcasters their. So at least one could have used dispel magic or something similar to get rid of true seeing or arcane sight..

[Jay R]

Under normal circumstances, sure, but Tarquin and Malack are with them.

And that worked out so well for Lord Tyrinar the Bloody and all the rulers before him.

Tarquin and Malack are not the allies of the people they appear to take orders from.

[Hallavast]

It was Immanuel Kant who proposed that, since one can't reliably predict or foresee all consequences of a given action, it is best to not act based on perceived consequences, but to act according to the Categorical Imperative. This means that you shouldn't do bad things, because bad things are bad. You never know if a good or bad outcome will come of your actions, so you ought to act in good faith.

And he goes on to say that such an Imperative basically means you shouldn't do something unless it would be good if everyone did it all the time. Ergo, you shouldn't commit genocide, because genocide is bad, mkay.

All this back and forth about what might have happened or not; and specifically the fact that the forum can't come to consensus; would only go to show that Kant was right.

Life's like fishin' on a river shanty. You just never know.

[Anarion]

It was Immanuel Kant who proposed that, since one can't reliably predict or foresee all consequences of a given action, it is best to not act based on perceived consequences, but to act according to the Categorical Imperative. This means that you shouldn't do bad things, because bad things are bad. You never know if a good or bad outcome will come of your actions, so you ought to act in good faith.

And he goes on to say that such an Imperative basically means you shouldn't do something unless it would be good if everyone did it all the time. Ergo, you shouldn't commit genocide, because genocide is bad, mkay.

All this back and forth about what might have happened or not; and specifically the fact that the forum can't come to consensus; would only go to show that Kant was right.

Life's like fishin' on a river shanty. You just never know.

I would point out that the Kantian theory comes with the assumption that other people are not going to act in a moral or immoral way, so you're basically on your own when making decisions. If you knew that other people would also consistently act moral or immoral, you could make a prediction about the consequences of your actions that might render Kant incorrect (e.g. if I knew that everyone else drove safely, then I could drive recklessly with almost no risk of an accident and thus slightly raise my work efficiency by getting places faster).

But certainly in V's case, especially given V's incomplete information, it would have made a lot of sense to act based on moral values rather than predicted consequences.

[kickassfrog]

Yes, sure, it's right to kill thousands of people just because otherwise a few of them would inconvenience you...

It does if you save everyone else. In the world!

[Icedaemon]

And how exactly is that elf better suited to that task than the highest level member(s) of the Draketooth clan, at least some of whom were probably roughly on par or even superior to any member of the Order?

[Kish]

It does if you save everyone else. In the world!

There's another quote from the same books my sig comes from.

"Lives don't add as integers. They add as infinities."

[JavaScribe]

And how exactly is that elf better suited to that task than the highest level member(s) of the Draketooth clan, at least some of whom were probably roughly on par or even superior to any member of the Order?

The Draketooths may well have been on par or even slightly stronger than the Order, but there is one thing they lacked that the Order has: Knowledge.

Ochull gave the Order very detailed knowledge on what Xykon can do, so they can fine tune their strategy. The Draketooths knew nothing of Xykon, and it is doubtful they would have given the Order the chance to tell them anything beyond the fact that Xykon is an epic sorceror lich.

Not to mention the strong possibility Vaarsuvius noted that the Draketooths didn't have any clerics. This would have made their higher level people vulnerable to Energy Drains.

[theNater]

The Draketooths may well have been on par or even slightly stronger than the Order, but there is one thing they lacked that the Order has: Knowledge.

Ochull gave the Order very detailed knowledge on what Xykon can do, so they can fine tune their strategy. The Draketooths knew nothing of Xykon, and it is doubtful they would have given the Order the chance to tell them anything beyond the fact that Xykon is an epic sorceror lich.

Not to mention the strong possibility Vaarsuvius noted that the Draketooths didn't have any clerics. This would have made their higher level people vulnerable to Energy Drains.

On the flipside, the Draketooths knew the precise location of the gate, the location and nature of all of the traps, and the nature and activation conditions for any special surprises Girard left behind. That information would also be useful in fine-tuning strategy.

The Order could probably also use Sending or similar magic to inform the Draketooths of Xykon's spell list. While the Draketooths are unlikely to trust it, they may be paranoid enough to build a plan for it being a double-bluff, which would work out all right.

And Energy Drains aren't unstoppable for wizards who know they're coming. A simple Mirror Image makes targeting an Energy Drain quite awkward, for example.

[lio45]

"The gate defense is a LOT weaker now that V has killed all the Draketooths; the Order can't do as good a defense job as the Draketooths would have"

does not automatically include

"The OotS couldn't have brought the Draketooths anything of value to the defense of Girard's gate"

[Aasimar]

So your argument is. They are looking for the trapmakers. They are all dead, but at least that means there aren't traps to prevent them from looking around to ascertain that they are dead, and thus killing them was a net-gain?

How in the world do you figure that?