Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof

[tgva8889]

I feel like Griselbrand combo decks might be problematic since I think they're all faster than you. Otherwise I don't know much about Legacy.

Talk about the current sets/environment? pfft, like I'd ever do that.

Spoiler

Show

99.9% likely Ravnica card. With new mechanic.

Spoiler

Show

The set symbol appears a little bit off to me on the card. Mechanically and otherwise it makes some sense, but the set symbol looks weird to me.

If the card is real, it's interesting. I guess. Populate is definitely something that they were going to make after Proliferate.

[Ceridan]

I'm going to Gen Con Indy this year and have decided to participate in a Commander tournament. Any suggestions for Commanders or deck builds guys/gals?

[arguskos]

I'm going to Gen Con Indy this year and have decided to participate in a Commander tournament. Any suggestions for Commanders or deck builds guys/gals?

Be warned: the official commander tournaments are savage, brutal, combo-ridden, and may destroy your love of fun and happiness.

That in mind, bring something insane, like Damia or Vendilion Clique. These are the decks you'll find at competitive tables of EDH. Good luck man, good luck.

[tgva8889]

If your objective is to win, I suggest this deck, with Maralen of the Mornsong instead of Griselbanned. Any other kind of absurd combo deck would also be moderately effective. The more often you win on turn 4 or earlier, the better.

If your objective is to have fun, don't play in a Commander tournament. Last time I was at Gen Con there was a Commander "gunslinging" table. Alternatively, you could just build a sign that says "Casual Commander Here!" and sit at one of the empty tables in the Magic area and play some Commander the way the format was intended to be played.

[Penguinizer]

What is your budget? You could play Bryant's Pile of Broken. It's basically a 100 card Grim Long (vintage storm) build.

Personally, I find the "way it's intended to be played" thing kind of silly. In my opinion the important thing is a consistent power level. If people want to optimize how are they in the wrong?

Also, Vendilion Clique and Riku are pretty brutal. If you run Riku I'd possible recommend Aluren but that combo needs an Imperial Recruiter to be viable.

[tgva8889]

EDH isn't a format designed to be optimized for power. When people optimize as you suggest, EDH becomes an arms race because you can do so many ridiculous things that if everyone tries to do the most powerful thing possible, games degenerate into what is basically several players all playing solitare. Some people may enjoy doing that, but the genesis of the format wasn't that way.

It's not that making broken EDH decks is wrong. It's that it's not hard or interesting. I mean, in a format where broken cards are legal and you abuse them, you aren't doing anything special or new. EDH is a format intended for people who want to do things like play a geriatric theme deck. There are formats where optimizing for power generates fair gameplay that can be remotely interesting. EDH with the Rules Committee-approved banned list (which most tournaments run by SCG or at things like Gen Con use) isn't that format.

Some people have, however, tried to make EDH a format in which optimization doesn't result in complete and total degeneration of the format. That's what the French Banned List is for.

I mean, EDH is designed on the Gentleman's Agreement. Everyone playing has to agree to a certain power level or it's not going to be interesting. Optimizing when no one else wants to do that is going to make people not want to play with you because you don't agree with the power level they are looking for.

[Science Officer]

I think another part of it is that EDH is mostly intended to be a multiplayer format? If there's a bigger group of people at the table, it doesn't matter as much what the relative power levels of their decks are; politics and behaviour matter more.

[The Extinguisher]

Well, to be honest, if I could afford the mana base, I'd run LED dredge. As it is, I have a consistent manaless deck, and I'd like to try a large tournament at least once. Currently, I'm running an Iona and a Blazing Archon as targets, as Archon seems to be good against almost all the decks out there right now. Also, I've played a few games, and it's not as bad against the meta as it seems. Cabal therapies go a long way against control, and I've done testing against the Patriot Act delver list and did well against it, I can produce large amounts of chump blockers to stall, and I can still run the deck without casting a spell against heavy control builds. I don't know for sure how it will turn out, but I'll post how I did tomorrow after the tournament.

Is dredges mana base expensive? I used to play LEDless dredge, and it didn't cost that much. City of Brass, Gemstone Cavern and Cephalid Colosseum aren't that much. What else do people play?

[Penguinizer]

Is dredges mana base expensive? I used to play LEDless dredge, and it didn't cost that much. City of Brass, Gemstone Cavern and Cephalid Colosseum aren't that much. What else do people play?

That's pretty much it. It's just the usual 5 color lands.

[Sith_Happens]

Also the protagonist is shown to lack the experience needed to control the powerful cards in his inherited deck. By which I mean he plays Library of Alexandria T1, taps it, then takes damage from mana burn because he didn't actually have anything to spend it on. All as a way to show that the cards are too powerful for a mere beginner.

Yeah, it was a dumb comic.

LOLWUT. Pretty sure I've never seen anyone, not even people playing for the very first time, tap for mana they aren't going to spend, even after mana burn stopped existing. (Well, sometimes me or my cousin will tap out just before losing to be funny, but besides that...)

Any other insane moments like that that it would be amusing to know about?

[Bucky]

LOLWUT. Pretty sure I've never seen anyone, not even people playing for the very first time, tap for mana they aren't going to spend, even after mana burn stopped existing. (Well, sometimes me or my cousin will tap out just before losing to be funny, but besides that...)

A) I've often seen players tap a land for mana and not spend it, usually in response to an untapped land being targetted by something.

B) If someone has 6 cards in hand and taps their Library of Alexandria, they're definitely making mana. Most judges wouldn't enforce it, though.

[tgva8889]

I think another part of it is that EDH is mostly intended to be a multiplayer format? If there's a bigger group of people at the table, it doesn't matter as much what the relative power levels of their decks are; politics and behaviour matter more.

Depends on the power level. If one person is playing a deck that infinite combo kills everyone at the table by turn 4, it tends not to matter how powerful the other people's decks are.

[Penguinizer]

Depends on the power level. If one person is playing a deck that infinite combo kills everyone at the table by turn 4, it tends not to matter how powerful the other people's decks are.

Or more likely a person with a competently built deck plays against said combo and it becomes a game of control wins.

Overall though. In EDH: card advantage>all, Aggro is not worth it at all and focus on synergy with general. Also play all of the following when applicable: Worldly Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Grim Tutor, Imperial Seal (this one is a stretch), Fauna Shaman, Survival of the Fittest, Birthing Pod, Consecrated Sphinx, Mind's Eye, Sol Ring, Mystic Remora/Rhystic Study, Sensei's Divining Top/Sylvan Library. There's probably a bunch more to add to that but that's sort of a start of what you should have.

[tgva8889]

Most competently built EDH decks are not prepared to deal with a deck that consistently wins on turn 4. EDH isn't a format where people do things like that, even though they are possible. Also, it's entirely possible to build a deck that wins on turn 4 even through ridiculous opposition, like my previously linked Ad Naseum deck.

Also, certain kinds of aggro are plausible. They just involve things generally frowned upon in EDH (Armageddon and similar cards, Winter Orb and similar cards, maybe Mind Twisting effects).

[Fable Wright]

Well, just got back from the DC Open. I went 4-5 in the end, but for a while at the beginning I was 3-0, then getting to 4-1 after a feature match (not on video) against Merfolk, and then lost the last 4 games to Zoo, ANT, Ensnaring Bridge (U/B Tezzeret build w/4 Leylines in the board), and then a Metalworker deck. Oddly enough, in the beginning, I had gone 2-0 against 2 Merfolk decks and 2 Maverick decks, both decks that people said I would be bad against. Then, later on in a non-tournament game, I kept on killing a RUG Delver deck. Still, 4-5 in my first large Legacy tournament isn't that bad...

Also, on Aggro in EDH: Doran, the Siege Tower. You now have what amounts to 2 and 3 CMC 5/5s (without defender), 4 CMC 10/10s and 7/7s, and so on. Give Doran boots with a Stoneforge and something, pack a few Armageddon clones, and you're set.

[Lhurgyof]

Going to test out my newly refurbished Angus Mackenzie EDH deck.

I revised it from a Turbofog combo deck to a Turbofog superfriends deck.

And I was wondering if it could make the OP.

Strategies and such:

Spoiler

Show

General Stragegy
Get out planeswalkers and fog/stall them to their ultimate.

Knowing When and What to Mulligan:
Dropping off cards that you don't need can be really hard. Whenever I play EDH I try and mulligan off any late-game cards. Try to keep as many lands and mana stones in your starting hand as you can, and never paris off a leyline!
Make sure you have the right colors of mana to play and use Angus and the cards in your hand. There's a lot of nonbasics in here, but never rely on drawing up a color of mana, better to paris off stuff in hopes of getting mana.

When To Wipe
This is pretty straightforward as well, when do you wipe the board?
The answer is when you have a good enough board position that wiping would be beneficial. Armageddon is good when you have lots of mana stones and a secure board position. Wrath of God and friends are good when there are creatures that for whatever reason you can't deal with.

When To Fog/Planeswalkers
Commander is, in essence, a multiplayer format. So, during whose turn do you fog? If you don't have your Seedborn Muse out, you have to choose a turn on which to fog. Make sure to use board politics to your advantage. You have nothing, you have one creature out and one planeswalker and nothing but land. And oh hey, guy #2 over there has a few good threats, swinging at me isn't a good idea! Let people think you're pathetic until you make YOUR power play and (hopefully) end the game. But if people decide to swing at you, it's best to judge who's going to swing at you and how much you and your planeswalkers can safely take. The most important planeswalkers in the deck are Jace, Tamiyo, and Elspeth. Giddeon is there to soak up damage, so don't be afraid to let him take a couple hits. But getting a Jace, Tamiyo, or Elspeth ultimate is one of the win-cons of the deck.

What to Counter
Another facet of this deck is its use of counterspells. Knowing what spell to counter is vital to any blue deck's strategy. Never counter tutors. Always counter what the tutors dig up, that way they wasted a spell to dig out the win con you foiled. That being said, always try to save your counterspells for win-cons or attempts to stop you from winning if you're about to get yours off.

[Fable Wright]

...Why are you not running Asceticism and Privileged Position? With Asceticism, getting Angus and your other creatures Hexproof and Regenerate is amazing, and Privileged Position makes it so that your planeswalkers join on on the Hexproof fun. Murkfiend Liege acts like another Seedborn Muse, letting you fog every turn. Darksteel Plate makes Angus/Wincon of Choice indestructible, so you can wrath without fear, and still fog when needed. Also, Blazing Archon might be a good addition to a fog deck, especially with ways to give him Shroud/Hexproof/Indestructible. [/2cents]

[Lhurgyof]

...Why are you not running Asceticism and Privileged Position? With Asceticism, getting Angus and your other creatures Hexproof and Regenerate is amazing, and Privileged Position makes it so that your planeswalkers join on on the Hexproof fun. Murkfiend Liege acts like another Seedborn Muse, letting you fog every turn. Darksteel Plate makes Angus/Wincon of Choice indestructible, so you can wrath without fear, and still fog when needed. Also, Blazing Archon might be a good addition to a fog deck, especially with ways to give him Shroud/Hexproof/Indestructible. [/2cents]

I just pulled asceticism, actually. I could add ut and the archon, but what do I take out? This is always the hardest part of deck-making.

[Fable Wright]

I just pulled asceticism, actually. I could add ut and the archon, but what do I take out? This is always the hardest part of deck-making.

Silence and Trickbind top the list of cards that might be cut for me. Silence, because all it does is stall out the inevitable for one more turn or protects a combo that I'm not seeing in the deck. The Isochron Scepter trick is nice, but I just don't think it's going to be that reliable in your deck. Speaking of which, you only have 8 cards in the deck that work with the Isochron Scepter at all, most of which are cards you want to use often. That may be something to consider taking out. Trickbind is something that I don't think will come up too often, and since it's just activated abilities, they can usually activate them again next turn.

[Lhurgyof]

Silence and Trickbind top the list of cards that might be cut for me. Silence, because all it does is stall out the inevitable for one more turn or protects a combo that I'm not seeing in the deck. The Isochron Scepter trick is nice, but I just don't think it's going to be that reliable in your deck. Speaking of which, you only have 8 cards in the deck that work with the Isochron Scepter at all, most of which are cards you want to use often. That may be something to consider taking out. Trickbind is something that I don't think will come up too often, and since it's just activated abilities, they can usually activate them again next turn.

Okay, I can agree with you on all of those except the Trickbind.

Maybe it's just our meta, but it seems like every time I get it, it ends up being used. Usually to save my ass.

So I can pull the Scepter and Silence for asceticism and something else (as I don't have a privileged position). Also, I got a signed Venser that I threw in for the mana vault.

[Stille_Nacht]

i highly advise trying ledless with mana :]. but if you really like the deck, go for it.
and yeah, 60/40 =/= no chance to win. nice job killing those mavericks :], more nice job killing tempo rug.

anyone here play standard? i'm playing zombie pod, and i'm wondering what your thoughts on ditching all my diregaf ghouls for more fume spitters are...

i mean delver/monogreen/gr/naya/ naya pod all run one drops i really. really. want to kill :/

[Mystic Muse]

I decided to take a look at the Damia decklist somebody posted since I wanted a slight basis for her, since I'm going to trade for one of her and hopefully build a deck around her.

I'm sure it was designed entirely with competitive in mind, but...wow. Several of the combos in that deck are just...Jerkish I guess. Mana web+Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth for example.

[Fable Wright]

i highly advise trying ledless with mana :]. but if you really like the deck, go for it.
and yeah, 60/40 =/= no chance to win. nice job killing those mavericks :], more nice job killing tempo rug.

anyone here play standard? i'm playing zombie pod, and i'm wondering what your thoughts on ditching all my diregaf ghouls for more fume spitters are...

i mean delver/monogreen/gr/naya/ naya pod all run one drops i really. really. want to kill :/

I run a Standard Mono-black Zombie list, and I must say, I really have fun with the one-drops they play. I mainboard 2 Mortarpods, 3 Fume Spitters, and 4 Tragic Slips. Whenever I need to kill one-drops, they die. To the extent where a friend of mine who runs Wolf Run boards out his Birds of Paradise against me. However, I advise against taking out the Diregraf Ghouls. You will need zombies to bring back Gravecrawler, and Messenger won't always cut it. It really depends on your list, but I might recommend adding in some Mortarpods. They don't have the utility of Birthing Pod, but they are very good at what they do- killing a 1-drop on the turn it comes down, fuel a lock with Gravecrawler, give you lategame reach even without a Gravecrawler, and kill something like a Huntsmaster or an Insectile Aberration when it really, really needs to die.

[Lhurgyof]

I decided to take a look at the Damia decklist somebody posted since I wanted a slight basis for her, since I'm going to trade for one of her and hopefully build a deck around her.

I'm sure it was designed entirely with competitive in mind, but...wow. Several of the combos in that deck are just...Jerkish I guess. Mana web+Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth for example.

I'm more of a fan of Bitterblossom plus contamination.

But that is pretty jerkish too.

[tgva8889]

Trickbind and Stifle actually have lots of awesome uses in EDH. You'd be surprised just how many things you could counter with it. It's usually worth a slot. Trickbind also hits triggered abilities, by the way.

Silence does do one important thing for Isochron Scepter: Turn it into an win condition once the game is down to 1 v. 1.

[Lord Seth]

Silence does do one important thing for Isochron Scepter: Turn it into an win condition once the game is down to 1 v. 1.

Not really. Isochron Scepter+Silence is overrated even if you're playing a 4-of for each in a 60 card deck (which gives you a reasonable chance of drawing both), but if you're playing only 1 of each in a 100-card deck even that chance goes way down.

[Ninjaman]

anyone here play standard? i'm playing zombie pod, and i'm wondering what your thoughts on ditching all my diregaf ghouls for more fume spitters are...

i mean delver/monogreen/gr/naya/ naya pod all run one drops i really. really. want to kill :/

I play UB zombies and i don't play any fume spitters, not because they aren't good, but because i have other stuff i want to use.
But i think the problem with fume spitters is that it is an utillity, while diregraf ghoul is a win con. And while utillity is nice, you don't want to much of it, especially in an aggro deck. But like Dm of Darkness said, post your list, then we can tell better, you might have enough win cons for it to work.

[Istari]

Is there any way to easily mimic opening booster packs online in order to play a limited game? I know about the daily ones wizard has but I'm looking for something random. Thanks in advance.

[Fable Wright]

Is there any way to easily mimic opening booster packs online in order to play a limited game? I know about the daily ones wizard has but I'm looking for something random. Thanks in advance.

Does this work? As I recall, some people use this site for drafting, and then copy/paste the cards that they get into Cockatrice and play the match games there.

[Istari]

Does this work? As I recall, some people use this site for drafting, and then copy/paste the cards that they get into Cockatrice and play the match games there.

I'll probably end up using it if I can't find anything else, but running through each draft pack is fairly inconvenient, since I don't think there's an easy way to get multiple packs other than to record the contents whenever you get a first pick since the bots are picking different rarities.