Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof

[tgva8889]

It wouldn't be a problem if the strong Selesyna decks were beatable. It turns out they actually aren't.

I note how many of your answers are rare. They exist, but they're much less common than Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage is, and how many 8/8 Vigilant elementals does someone actually need? It's not as many as you would think, though making 5 of them is fun. (I did that!) It's more that when you are doing it, you are completely and totally blowing your opponent out. It's not even a game. Many of the Selesnya decks I saw can also do other things early and then just have the unbeatable late game of multiple 8/8s.

It doesn't help that White has the best removal, so Selesnya decks also have access to Arrest and Trostani's Judgment to answer whatever it is you're trying to do against them. The removal was what really made my deck worse than the other variations of the same deck; I didn't have as much, and they won because of it.

Can they lose? Certainly. This is Magic we're talking about. But the deck is actually quite functional and very consistent if you have the tools, and most of the games involving the 8/8 are certain victories to anything but your opponent's identical card. Nothing anyone else could do seemed to work, or they simply didn't have it.

This is all from my personal experience. Theoretically what you are saying may be true, but for specifically the prerelease I played in, no one who picked anything but Selesnya had a comparable deck to the top 3 or 4 Selesnya decks.

[Sohala]

These might not be the most valuable cards price-wise, but they're very solid for Limited. Chemister in particular is very, very good. Glad you did well with a rather unorthodox pool, though!

Oh, I wont disagree that they were getting work done when played, but when your deck pool includes a Rest in Peace and Palisade Giant, and then your prize pool contains another copy of each along with a Mana Bloom, the rares seem kind of bleh.

[The Extinguisher]

I feel like I made some mistakes at the prerelease. This was my pool (I picked Izzet), and I want to know what other people would have done with it.

Spoiler

Show

White:
Trostani's Judgement
Ethereal Armor
Baazar Krovod
Trained Caracal
Swift Justice
Conordia Pegasus
Azorius Arrester

Blue:
Bluster Squall
Paralyzing Grasp
Voidwielder
Skyline Predator
Isperia's Skywatch
Runewing
Doorkeeper X3
Downsize X2
Crosstown Courier
Tower Drake

Black:
Launch Party
Daggerdrome Imp
Mind Rot
Destroy the Evidence
Catacomb Slug
Tavern Swindler
Perilous Shadow
Terrus Wurm
Sewer Shambler

Red:
Goblin Rally
Viashino Racketeer
Street Spasm X2
Explosive Impact
Electrickery
Lobber Crew X2
Bellows Lizard
Traitorous Instinct
Tenement Crasher
Pyroconvergence
Survey the Wreckage
Cobblebrute
Dynacharge X2
Vandalblast

Green:
Aerial Predation
Seek the Horizon
Axebane Guardian
Axebane Stag
Druid's Deliverance
Centaur's Herald
Chorus of Might
Drudge Beetle

Azorius:
Archon of the Triumvirate
Vassal Soul

Selesnya:
Collective Blessing
Heroes Renion
Centaur Healer
Common Bond
Growing Ranks
Sundering Growth
Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage

Golgari:
Sluiceway Scorpion
Rites of Reaping X2
Korozda Guildmage

Rakdos:
Skull Rend
Spawn of Rix Maadi

Izzet:
Frostburn Weird X2
Hypersonic Dragon
Izzet Staticaster
Thoughtflare
Goblin Electromancer X2
Firemind's Foresight
Nivmagus Elemental
Chemister's Trick

Artifacts and Lands:
Rakdos Keyrune
Tablet of the Guilds
Overgrown Tomb
Golgari Guildgate
Rakdos Guildgate
Izzet Guildgate X2

[Fable Wright]

It wouldn't be a problem if the strong Selesyna decks were beatable. It turns out they actually aren't.

I note how many of your answers are rare. They exist, but they're much less common than Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage is, and how many 8/8 Vigilant elementals does someone actually need? It's not as many as you would think, though making 5 of them is fun. (I did that!) It's more that when you are doing it, you are completely and totally blowing your opponent out. It's not even a game. Many of the Selesnya decks I saw can also do other things early and then just have the unbeatable late game of multiple 8/8s.

It doesn't help that White has the best removal, so Selesnya decks also have access to Arrest and Trostani's Judgment to answer whatever it is you're trying to do against them. The removal was what really made my deck worse than the other variations of the same deck; I didn't have as much, and they won because of it.

Can they lose? Certainly. This is Magic we're talking about. But the deck is actually quite functional and very consistent if you have the tools, and most of the games involving the 8/8 are certain victories to anything but your opponent's identical card. Nothing anyone else could do seemed to work, or they simply didn't have it.

This is all from my personal experience. Theoretically what you are saying may be true, but for specifically the prerelease I played in, no one who picked anything but Selesnya had a comparable deck to the top 3 or 4 Selesnya decks.

Bolded for emphasis. My main point was that Selesnya will not always, or even most of the time, have the tools to make the deck work. The Guildmage is an uncommon, meaning it's unreliable. Trostani is a mythic, as is the 8/8 vigilant land (though it is included in the guild packs, yes). Perhaps I'm just bitter about getting all the Populate cards and almost none of the token producers, but I'm skeptical about Selesnya always being the best deck. I will agree that Selesnya decks are the best in the format, but I feel that the overall power level of Selesnya fluctuates a lot compared to the other guilds; Rakdos can consistently turn out an aggro deck, Golgari decks have a lot of inevitability on their end and act as good midrange decks, Izzet decks have a tendency to win out of nowhere, and so on. All I'm saying is that, based on my personal experience, Selesnya will get there if it has the tools it needs. I'm highly skeptical about most Selesnya players getting those tools. Your experience is probably skewed because you were in the winning bracket most of the time when you had the synergies to work with, and only played the Selesnya decks that did get the tools. Mine is skewed in that I was almost demolished by a Golgari deck that would certainly have demolished me despite my Elemental token had the person running it not misplayed several times and had I not been able to draw game 3 out to a draw. I'm just saying, just because Selesnya has a chance at getting the best deck, don't count out the other decks. Scavenge is a really powerful mechanic that is a lot easier to put together than a Populate deck is, and evasion through Korozda Guildmage on any of the numberous huge bodies that a Golgari deck can put out is ridiculous.

Either way, I'm going to another prerelease tomorrow, and I can give a more accurate report of how good the guilds are.

[Gullara]

Well, it's been forever since I even glanced at this thread, much less posted. @.@
I'm looking for advice, however. I got the random urge to create a Golgari Zombie list. Unfortunately I don't have any means of playtesting at the moment, so I just did the best I could while just thinking it over.

{table=head] | Golgari Zombies | 60 | Cards | |
23 | Lands | 23 | Creatures | 14 | Spells
3 | Cavern of Souls | 3 | Diregraf Ghoul | 2 | Abrupt Decay
2 | Forest | 4 | Dreg Mangler | 2 | Garruk Relentless
4 | Overgrown Tomb | 4 | Geralf's Messenger | 2 | Grisly Salvage
10 | Swamp | 4 | Gravecrawler | 1 | Murder
4 | Woodland Cemetary | 4 | Lotleth Troll | 4 | Rancor
| | 4 | Slitherhead | 3 | Tragic Slip
[/table]

That's what I was thinking, though I expect there are better choices I could have made. The card selections seem solid to me, but perhaps the amount of each could be better.

Also, I'm trying to decide whether or not that was the worst way to format that ever.

[Sinfonian]

I can't claim to be much of a Standard player (since I mostly play EDH and some Limited) but I feel like there's something to be gained from adding some Blood Artists to the mix. Unless I'm mistaken, they change up combat calculations as well as adding some reach. I've seen them quickly becoming backbreaking in multiples in zombie decks.

Edit: Another thing is that I'm not personally all that interested by Slitherhead so far. I understand the usefulness of a 1-drop that can help from the grave, but I feel like the slots might be better used elsewhere.

Edit2: I'd have some Mutilates on hand, if only in the sideboard.

[Gullara]

Hm, Blood Artists are definitely something to consider. However, I'm not sure they're consistent enough. Simply because they rely on things dying, and things aren't always guaranteed to die. Now if it interacted with Lotleth Troll's discarding, that'd be another story, but unfortunately it doesn't synergize with the other cards in the deck very well. It's on my radar, though.

Slitherhead interests me simply because of the excellent synergy with Lotleth Troll. I think it has potential. When I can do some playtesting I'll have a much better idea of it's strengths and weaknesses.

And I'll definitely toss some Mutilates in the sideboard.

[IthilanorStPete]

-Blood Artists are great, easy 4-of. You need the reach. Don't worry about things not dying; you're an aggro deck. If they're not killing your creatures, you're using those creatures to beat them to death.
-Grisly Salvage seems potentially good, though it might be a bit slow. Not sure on this one.
-I'm also mixed on Slitherhead. It's nice value with Lotleth Troll, but it's also pretty slow on its own. Rakdos Cackler might be good as another one-drop, it's not a zombie, but it's a one mana 2/2.
-You don't want Mutilate in the sideboard; wiping your board as well as theirs isn't the way you want to go in a low-curve aggro deck like Zombies. I'd just go with more midrange-ish cards like Garruk and more spot removal. Golgari Charm's a decent option if you're really worried about token swarms; some of your guys can actually live through it, and its other modes are also useful.

[Gullara]

Hm, alright, I'll give Blood Artist a go then. If enough people are saying it' good I'd be silly to resist.

Grisly Salvage is one card I'm leaving up to playtesting. I like it with all the Slitherheads, Dreg Manglers, and Gravecrawlers in the list, but whether or not it works well is another question. And if I were to lose the Slitherheads, the Grisly Salvages would go as well.

And I completely forgot the Charm. I'm not worrying too much about the sideboard at this point in time anyway, however. I'm more concerned with the main deck.

EDIT: Also, some input on the removal I chose and the amounts would help me a lot.

[IthilanorStPete]

It's hard to tell the exact amount/kind of removal you should run without knowing what the metagame's going to be like, or what your particular meta is. I'd probably go with 7-8 total, say 4 Abrupt Decay and 3-4 Tragic Slip.

[Sohala]

I feel like I made some mistakes at the prerelease. This was my pool (I picked Izzet), and I want to know what other people would have done with it.

Spoiler

Show

White:
Trostani's Judgement
Ethereal Armor
Baazar Krovod
Trained Caracal
Swift Justice
Conordia Pegasus
Azorius Arrester

Blue:
Bluster Squall
Paralyzing Grasp
Voidwielder
Skyline Predator
Isperia's Skywatch
Runewing
Doorkeeper X3
Downsize X2
Crosstown Courier
Tower Drake

Black:
Launch Party
Daggerdrome Imp
Mind Rot
Destroy the Evidence
Catacomb Slug
Tavern Swindler
Perilous Shadow
Terrus Wurm
Sewer Shambler

Red:
Goblin Rally
Viashino Racketeer
Street Spasm X2
Explosive Impact
Electrickery
Lobber Crew X2
Bellows Lizard
Traitorous Instinct
Tenement Crasher
Pyroconvergence
Survey the Wreckage
Cobblebrute
Dynacharge X2
Vandalblast

Green:
Aerial Predation
Seek the Horizon
Axebane Guardian
Axebane Stag
Druid's Deliverance
Centaur's Herald
Chorus of Might
Drudge Beetle

Azorius:
Archon of the Triumvirate
Vassal Soul

Selesnya:
Collective Blessing
Heroes Renion
Centaur Healer
Common Bond
Growing Ranks
Sundering Growth
Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage

Golgari:
Sluiceway Scorpion
Rites of Reaping X2
Korozda Guildmage

Rakdos:
Skull Rend
Spawn of Rix Maadi

Izzet:
Frostburn Weird X2
Hypersonic Dragon
Izzet Staticaster
Thoughtflare
Goblin Electromancer X2
Firemind's Foresight
Nivmagus Elemental
Chemister's Trick

Artifacts and Lands:
Rakdos Keyrune
Tablet of the Guilds
Overgrown Tomb
Golgari Guildgate
Rakdos Guildgate
Izzet Guildgate X2

The promised list:

Spoiler

Show

Frostburn Weird (X2)
Hypersonic Dragon
Izzet Staticaster
Thoughtflare
Goblin Electromancer (X2)
Chemister's Trick
Tenement Crasher
Traitorous Instinct
Lobber Crew (X2)
Viashino Racketeer
Street Spasm (X2)
Explosive Impact

Paralyzing Grasp
Voidwielder
Skyline Predator
Runewing
Doorkeeper (x3)
Downsize (x2)

Trostani's Judgment
Archon of the Triumvirate
Vassal Soul

Izzet Guildgate (X2)

Needs 3 or 4 cuts, I don't really care for the curve, but you have some decent sized flyers, along with poke and mill options.

Day two prerelease:
I grabbed Selesnya for today and got good color support; I had cards fighting for slots! Loads of populate and token cards (including removal) and they got backed up by a Martial Law and Deadbridge Goliath. I went 4-0, losing not a single game. The games were not as great as yesterday, given I got fairly low during several, but once I stabilized the board, games ended quickly.

Largest swing of the day: 30 (3 elementals & 2 centaurs)

Zombie talk:
Falkenrath Noble costs a bit more, but he does have the 2/2 flying body; that is if you wanted to try something other than Artist.

Edit: Oh right, I cracked Vraska in my prize packs.

[The Extinguisher]

The promised list:

Spoiler

Show

Frostburn Weird (X2)
Hypersonic Dragon
Izzet Staticaster
Thoughtflare
Goblin Electromancer (X2)
Chemister's Trick
Tenement Crasher
Traitorous Instinct
Lobber Crew (X2)
Viashino Racketeer
Street Spasm (X2)
Explosive Impact

Paralyzing Grasp
Voidwielder
Skyline Predator
Runewing
Doorkeeper (x3)
Downsize (x2)

Trostani's Judgment
Archon of the Triumvirate
Vassal Soul

Izzet Guildgate (X2)

Needs 3 or 4 cuts, I don't really care for the curve, but you have some decent sized flyers, along with poke and mill options.

Day two prerelease:
I grabbed Selesnya for today and got good color support; I had cards fighting for slots! Loads of populate and token cards (including removal) and they got backed up by a Martial Law and Deadbridge Goliath. I went 4-0, losing not a single game. The games were not as great as yesterday, given I got fairly low during several, but once I stabilized the board, games ended quickly.

Largest swing of the day: 30 (3 elementals & 2 centaurs)

Zombie talk:
Falkenrath Noble costs a bit more, but he does have the 2/2 flying body; that is if you wanted to try something other than Artist.

Edit: Oh right, I cracked Vraska in my prize packs.

Yeah, I feel like I valued my fixing waaaay to high, and shouldn't have tried to play black at all. My deck was just trying to do way to many things.
Thanks for the list though. I really like that list. If I had played that I might have done better.

[Gullara]

It's hard to tell the exact amount/kind of removal you should run without knowing what the metagame's going to be like, or what your particular meta is. I'd probably go with 7-8 total, say 4 Abrupt Decay and 3-4 Tragic Slip.

Hm, okay, I'll take that into account.

Zombie talk:
Falkenrath Noble costs a bit more, but he does have the 2/2 flying body; that is if you wanted to try something other than Artist.

While a 2/2 flying body is nice, I think the increased casting cost would hurt it too much, especially in an aggro deck.

[Sohala]

Yeah, I feel like I valued my fixing waaaay to high, and shouldn't have tried to play black at all. My deck was just trying to do way to many things.
Thanks for the list though. I really like that list. If I had played that I might have done better.

Black looks okay, and with your fixing it work be easier, but the removal and detain from white seem stronger.

Spoiler

Show

Spawn of Rix Maadi
Rakdos Guildgate
Rakdos Keyrune
Terrus Wurm
Sewer Shambler

Those five would be the only black I think I would have tried to fit in, not including swamps.

While a 2/2 flying body is nice, I think the increased casting cost would hurt it too much, especially in an aggro deck.

My thought was instead of 4 Artist, go with 2 Artist and 2 Noble. The train of thought was, seeing that there was no flying in the list and that when you would be playing a 4cc creature would be about the time you need those last points of damage. By himself an Artist does no damage; you of course have scavenge to make him do damage, but that scavenge could go on other creatures.

[tgva8889]

The issue with Selesnya at the prereleases (which is all I was talking about, not in general limited) is that they automatically have an 8/8 token generator, which means ALL of your Populate cards can be turned on for amazing value. From there you want maybe 2 or 3 cards that can make Centaurs or Knights and 2 or 3 cards that can make Birds and you should be good to go. It doesn't take that much to make the Populate cards work for you to great extremes. The only problem you may have is in the removal department, but you get Trostani's Judgment and Avenging Arrow which are not bad and are also common. You also get Arrest at Uncommon, which is probably the best removal spell in the set.

Since you have a guild pack, it's not as hard as it seems to open either a Guildmage or a Trostani, and you don't actually NEED either for your deck to be good, they just break your deck in half. Also, the 8/8 vigilant land is a rare.

The Guild Packs ruin every attempt to analyze limited based on the prereleases. It's really hard to decide how the format goes when people have decks with 2 Skymark Rocs and 3 Avenging Arrows (among other things) or multiple copies of literally every good Rakdos common, the Keyrune, the 3/2 Unleash for 3, and the 1/2 Unleash Deathtouch. I don't think we get any relevant analysis out of pools like that, we just get to see some format warping from the Guild Packs. While you're right in that it's hard to expect a Selesnya deck to always have the bomb, when they get a guild pack with assured good chances at some of those good cards it's easier to assure them.

I'm not sure whether this format is just ridiculously powerful or whether it was mostly guild packs skewing it, but it seems like if your best build was solidly in your guild pack's color, you crushed and if it wasn't, you had no chance.

My deck was abyssmal, but I made 7th which was good for 6 packs. Not sure how I managed that, but I accept it after losing to the absurd decks I mention above. Golgari ended up being really awkward and turned into 3-color, mostly to play Rakdos Lord of Riots as a big finisher and to play any removal spells (seriously, I get no removal spells in Black and someone gets 3 Launch Parties). I did learn that Deathrite Shaman is a very good card in Limited and I could easily see it making a splash in Standard.

[Grytorm]

I'm trying to put a deck together. I have a great deal of the cards already. Only missing the Ash Zealots for the rares. Later on I probably will splash Black in the deck but I don't have enough money for the Blood Crypts. Some advice for the second two drop would be nice and I am unsure of the Splatter Thugs although it does block GoST. Maybe Cryptborn Horror for a new 3 Drop

Spoiler

Show

4x Stromkirk Noble
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Ash Zealot
4x Lightning Mauler
4x Guttersnipe
2x Splatter Thug
3x Hellrider
4x Pillar of Flame
2x Elecktrickery
4x Searing Spear
4x Brimstone Volley
21x Mountain

[Lord Seth]

I really liked this prerelease format, though I'm disappointed that I elected to not go to the second one at the store (was interested in trying out Izzet) because I went to an unrelated meeting instead, only to discover that said meeting wasn't anywhere near as important as I thought it'd be and run into a few problems getting home, leaving me wishing I had just stayed around. Though I did save some money, I guess...then again, maybe I would have gotten some great stuff from it, like how my box contained an Abrupt Decay and a Blood Crypt (neither of which worked in my deck...but they cover a significant portion of the entrance fee).

As a fun note, I did win two games thanks to Azor's Elocutors.

Anyway, I remember all the guild boxes had these goofy little "welcome to the guild" letters. Since I was Azorius and didn't get a chance to try or really look at the others, I was wondering if anyone knew of any places where it's possible to read them?

[Gullara]

My thought was instead of 4 Artist, go with 2 Artist and 2 Noble. The train of thought was, seeing that there was no flying in the list and that when you would be playing a 4cc creature would be about the time you need those last points of damage. By himself an Artist does no damage; you of course have scavenge to make him do damage, but that scavenge could go on other creatures.

Hm, I'll think about it. Slapping Scavenge on a flier seems like an appealing idea. On the other hand, there might be better creatures to do it with if that's what I wanted. (Vampire Nighthawk anyone?) I imagine the deck could use another creature that can slip damage through. Lotleth Troll is obviously the creature of choice seeing as he's resilient and has evasion, but there are only four of them in the deck.

[Ninjaman]

Well, it's been forever since I even glanced at this thread, much less posted. @.@
I'm looking for advice, however. I got the random urge to create a Golgari Zombie list. Unfortunately I don't have any means of playtesting at the moment, so I just did the best I could while just thinking it over.

{table=head] | Golgari Zombies | 60 | Cards | |
23 | Lands | 23 | Creatures | 14 | Spells
3 | Cavern of Souls | 3 | Diregraf Ghoul | 2 | Abrupt Decay
2 | Forest | 4 | Dreg Mangler | 2 | Garruk Relentless
4 | Overgrown Tomb | 4 | Geralf's Messenger | 2 | Grisly Salvage
10 | Swamp | 4 | Gravecrawler | 1 | Murder
4 | Woodland Cemetary | 4 | Lotleth Troll | 4 | Rancor
| | 4 | Slitherhead | 3 | Tragic Slip
[/table]

That's what I was thinking, though I expect there are better choices I could have made. The card selections seem solid to me, but perhaps the amount of each could be better.

Also, I'm trying to decide whether or not that was the worst way to format that ever.

You don't want forests as they hurt your messanger, golgari guildgates if you want more green sources. They come down tapped which is dangerous, but it is better than not tapping for black.

I can't claim to be much of a Standard player (since I mostly play EDH and some Limited) but I feel like there's something to be gained from adding some Blood Artists to the mix. Unless I'm mistaken, they change up combat calculations as well as adding some reach. I've seen them quickly becoming backbreaking in multiples in zombie decks.

-Blood Artists are great, easy 4-of. You need the reach. Don't worry about things not dying; you're an aggro deck. If they're not killing your creatures, you're using those creatures to beat them to death.

Actually i don't think blood artist is the way to go. They where great in the previous format, because of sack outlets like birthing pod, mortar pod, Falkenrath aristocrat and killing wave. Of all of those you only still have killing wave, since you need to be red to play the falkenrath.
Also it gave you an edge against board wipes when playing agains Wolf run ramp, esper control and the like, but there are far fewer cheap board wipes now: Suprime verdict and bonfire are the only that really make the cut, mizzium mortars and street spasm are just too slow. And even against the few board wipes there are the deck is going to fare better since the troll can be regenerated, mangler has 3 toughness which helps agains non-miracled bonfire and you can scavenge it to make your surviving creatures bigger, and rancors helps you get the agro going with even just 1 surviving creature. Also you have golgari charm in board which will help too.

So far my zombies are going to look like this:
Creatures:25
4 Diregraf ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
3 Rakdos cackler
4 Lothleth troll
4 Geralf's messanger
4 Dreg mangler
2 Disciple of bolas

Non-creatures:12
3 Tragic slip
3 Abrupt decay
4 Rancor
2 Garruk relentless

Lands:23
4 Cavern of sous
4 Overgrown tomb
4 Woodland cemetery
11 Swamps (i might switch out two for guilgates)

Sideboard:
2 Pithing needle
3 Deathrite shaman
2 Underworld connections
1 Abrupt decay
3 Golgari charm
2 Naturalize
2 Sever the bloodline

The sideboard should be changed acording to the meta.

[Gullara]

Hm, that was related to my concern with Blood Artist earlier. It still probably deserves some playtesting, but it is on my list of things to keep an eye on.

One question, why do you include Disciple of Bolas? There don't seem to be much in the way of good targets for the effect in this deck, aside from Dreg Mangler perhaps.

As for the forests, I know what you mean, but I'm thinking that once in a while not having three black mana by turn three would hurt me less than the guild gate slowing me down a turn or lacking a green source when I need it. I'll be keeping my eye on the mana base, though.

[Meta]

I really liked this prerelease format, though I'm disappointed that I elected to not go to the second one at the store (was interested in trying out Izzet) because I went to an unrelated meeting instead, only to discover that said meeting wasn't anywhere near as important as I thought it'd be and run into a few problems getting home, leaving me wishing I had just stayed around. Though I did save some money, I guess...then again, maybe I would have gotten some great stuff from it, like how my box contained an Abrupt Decay and a Blood Crypt (neither of which worked in my deck...but they cover a significant portion of the entrance fee).

As a fun note, I did win two games thanks to Azor's Elocutors.

Anyway, I remember all the guild boxes had these goofy little "welcome to the guild" letters. Since I was Azorius and didn't get a chance to try or really look at the others, I was wondering if anyone knew of any places where it's possible to read them?

Scroll down to the bottom and they're all there as individual files: http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Return_to_Ravnica

I played Azorious and had a good time with it. Lost to an Izzet deck who was a good player and had double chemister. That card is nuts if you can't find a way to do more than detain it. And lost to dem tokens which I think has the potential to be crazy. I disagree that it's because of the elementals though, they can be good, but the deck doesn't need em in limited.

Game 1 I was doing pretty well but his curve was t2 centaur, wayfaring temple, eyes in the sky, eyes in the sky, collective blessing. Lost to some big birds.
Won Game 2 thanks to my own collective blessing forcing bad chumps and then bouncing or detaining his pair of 8/8's.
Game 3, both my keyrune and lantern meet sundering growth so I don' hit my splash and he gets 2 more centaurs. Ouch.

I feel like the deck has a LOT of token makers at the common and uncommon slots and their only consistent weakness (IME) was in the air thanks to nothing bigger than 1/1 birds... most of the time. Plus a lot of borderline cards like safe passage, naturalize, or fog get pretty crazy when you staple 3/3 centaurs or 5/5 slimes on them.

[Ninjaman]

Hm, that was related to my concern with Blood Artist earlier. It still probably deserves some playtesting, but it is on my list of things to keep an eye on.

I playtested it a bit, and it just didn't do what it used to do.

One question, why do you include Disciple of Bolas? There don't seem to be much in the way of good targets for the effect in this deck, aside from Dreg Mangler perhaps.

Gravecrawler, messanger, anything equiped with a rancor.

As for the forests, I know what you mean, but I'm thinking that once in a while not having three black mana by turn three would hurt me less than the guild gate slowing me down a turn or lacking a green source when I need it. I'll be keeping my eye on the mana base, though.

sure.

[tgva8889]

Anyway, I remember all the guild boxes had these goofy little "welcome to the guild" letters. Since I was Azorius and didn't get a chance to try or really look at the others, I was wondering if anyone knew of any places where it's possible to read them?

Since they posted the Achievement Cards as Arcana on the mothership, I hope they post these as well. I too wish I could read all of them, as some of them are fun to read (and add your own comments to like I did when reading the Selesnya one).

[Mystic Muse]

How many Armada wurms would you guys suggest for a populate deck?

[Nightson]

Three to four. No ramp go with three, with ramp go with four imo.

[Duos]

Just fleshed out my playset of Cackling Counterpart. What are some really, really dumb things to populate? (Aside from the obvious choices like Thragtusk, Restoration Angel, Wolfir Silverheart, etc.)

[Landis963]

Just fleshed out my playset of Cackling Counterpart. What are some really, really dumb things to populate? (Aside from the obvious choices like Thragtusk, Restoration Angel, Wolfir Silverheart, etc.)

Tarmogoyf comes to mind. Armada Wurm. Any non-legendary Eldrazi. If you're asking about the modern meaning of dumb, then Avacyn.

[tgva8889]

Additional copies of Armada Wurm and Angel of Serenity are pretty silly things to Populate. Populating Restoration Angel pales in comparison to these. If you are looking at the most absurd things you can possibly populate, populate the biggest, most abusive things.

If you want some less mainstream answers, Goldnight Redeemer could be worth a lot of life. Any of the lords are possible options (Drogskol Captain works well because he protects the others and also works well with Phantom Captain if you want to go really deep). Dungeon Geists is a pretty good choice as well. Obviously if there's a creature that you can transform into something awesome, making a copy that can't transform could be beneficial (unless, perhaps, it is Huntmaster/Ravager of the Fells).

I think if you wanted to go all the way out of the box and onto the table then Beguiler of Wills would be really amusing. How many creatures can you steal?

Edit: Do not populate Avacyn, she'll die immediately upon seeing the token copy of herself. Indestructible is not a defense here.

[Landis963]

Edit: Do not populate Avacyn, she'll die immediately upon seeing the token copy of herself. Indestructible is not a defense here.

Ahem. "modern meaning of dumb." That post probably needs a smiley to make the joke clear.

[Dralnu]

Day 1 Prerelease I went Izzet, which was the most popular guild (Rakdos second). I opened up a crappy pool with Nivmagus Elemental as my pack rare and Guild Feud as my only other on-color rare. The only things going for me were my multiple Street Spasms (2), 6cmc 5 burn spell thing (2), and voidwielder (2). None of the other colors were strong enough to go into so I just splashed a little black for the +4/-4 card and relied on my promo / guttersnipe / pyroconvergence to win it for me.

Went 1-3 drop. Won the first round against Rakdos because I curved perfectly both games and rationed my removal properly, and my opponent's deck wasn't very good. Round 2 went up against Selesnya with 2 Loxodon Smiter / 2 Vitu Guildmage, tons of 3/3 tokens and populate oh my, got 0-2'd but both games were very close. Round 3 went up against Izzet, was close but ended up 1-2 as he topdecked the perfect card each time. Round 4 went against Rakdos, he had a reeeeally good deck but he had absolutely no idea how to play, first game I had to mull to 4 and kept a no-land hand but topdecked one after two turns and held his massive army at bay with my 1/2 nivmagus elemental that apparently scared him, turn 8 I had my second land but it was too late, then game 2 I mull'd to 5 and kept a good hand but got flooded out. Left the tournament pretty annoyed.

Second prerelease went Azoriusat a different store. Selesnya was the most popular followed by Rakdos. Got a sick pool with 2 Righteous Authority, JACE, and a bunch of solid commons/uncommons to fill out a UW control deck. Went 3-2, lost both games to Selesnya in large part to Vitu Guildmage, which my removal suit of Paralyzing Grasp + 2x Avenging Arrow was ill-suited to deal with. I was actually the only non-Selesnya that got over 2 wins. Also fun note, my Archon never once was able to attack in any game that I played it.

Overall I really liked the prerelease. Selesnya looks OP in this format, however. It has way too many insane cards at common/uncommon.