General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

[comicshorse]

That said, there is risk involved. If you roll too few successes, you may only be able to send yourself a minute into the future. Just enough time for your enemies to show up.

Or enough time for the Fragmentation grenade you dropped to go off amongst the enemies

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Or enough time for the Fragmentation grenade you dropped to go off amongst the enemies

Or that, yes.

[SiuiS]

Or that, yes.

A this point, though, aren't you a high power wizard fighting other high-power wizards? What's a fragmentation grenade going to do? Get turned into the platonic ideal of a rubber penguin, and punted out of the room. Or shunted to Twilight, or having the kinetic and thermal energy converted to static electricity, or...

You'd have to invest in the resources to get a spell-cloaked counterspell effect latched onto the grenade with a mana reserve at high enough potency to be undetectable, along with something to enhance the power of the blast to get through the armor of the various assailants, and a Fate trigger to go off at the right time.

At that point, you're better off getting a fetch and the Improved Familiar merit, because without the improved familiar merit you've got an easy 32 dice lethal area of effect blast, at the low low cost of the fetch burning all it's essence and some of your mana.

Then again, I've never seen a MAge PC operating at full resources, so I suppose it really is a game of Skin-Of-Your-Teeth ballsiness.

[The Glyphstone]

A this point, though, aren't you a high power wizard fighting other high-power wizards? What's a fragmentation grenade going to do? Get turned into the platonic ideal of a rubber penguin, and punted out of the room. Or shunted to Twilight, or having the kinetic and thermal energy converted to static electricity, or...

You'd have to invest in the resources to get a spell-cloaked counterspell effect latched onto the grenade with a mana reserve at high enough potency to be undetectable, along with something to enhance the power of the blast to get through the armor of the various assailants, and a Fate trigger to go off at the right time.

At that point, you're better off getting a fetch and the Improved Familiar merit, because without the improved familiar merit you've got an easy 32 dice lethal area of effect blast, at the low low cost of the fetch burning all it's essence and some of your mana.

Then again, I've never seen a MAge PC operating at full resources, so I suppose it really is a game of Skin-Of-Your-Teeth ballsiness.

I think he was talking about the Changeling Contract of Hours here, not the Mage Arcana of Time.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

It is the the Changeling contract. Which is why the frag grenade idea is viable. If it were Mage, you have better options, like shunting your target out of the time stream permanently.

[SiuiS]

I think he was talking about the Changeling Contract of Hours here, not the Mage Arcana of Time.

Herp Derp

Yeah, that was just me procesing too many tabs at once. I'm sorry.

... Changeling games really deal with combat enough for a frag grenade to be a good, not weird idea? I suppose my preconceptions are vastly different than most people's. I figure those who resort to violence are seen like they are in real life; like psychopaths.




....


*bounces*

Hurry up, God Machine~!

[Sith_Happens]

... Changeling games really deal with combat enough for a frag grenade to be a good, not weird idea? I suppose my preconceptions are vastly different than most people's. I figure those who resort to violence are seen like they are in real life; like psychopaths.

Implying that changelings aren't significantly more likely than the general population to be or become psychopaths.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

... Changeling games really deal with combat enough for a frag grenade to be a good, not weird idea? I suppose my preconceptions are vastly different than most people's. I figure those who resort to violence are seen like they are in real life; like psychopaths.

Considering the fact that the average changeling has to be wary of privateers, loyalists, the Keepers, hobgoblins, monster hunters, other monsters, and sometimes even other changelings, especially in areas where court politics are likely to erupt into or otherwise involve violence? Yeah, no, frag grenades are a perfectly valid idea.

[comicshorse]

Particuarly when you're a member of the Summer Court

[SiuiS]

Implying that changelings aren't significantly more likely than the general population to be or become psychopaths.

Well, no, I wouldn't think so. Changeling seemed a lot more about interpersonal drama, than any actual violence, hedge stuff aside. Meaning that as soona s you are a psychopath, the entire rest of the freehold has good reason to band together and kick you out.

Every other splat, including straight mortal, has a higher propensity for violence by my estimation. Obviously, it's subjective, but it always surprises me.

Particuarly when you're a member of the Summer Court

Cheers to that, though.

[One Tin Soldier]

Well, no, I wouldn't think so. Changeling seemed a lot more about interpersonal drama, than any actual violence, hedge stuff aside. Meaning that as soona s you are a psychopath, the entire rest of the freehold has good reason to band together and kick you out.

Every other splat, including straight mortal, has a higher propensity for violence by my estimation. Obviously, it's subjective, but it always surprises me.



Cheers to that, though.

In our Changeling game we have to deal with powerful enemies often enough that potent combat abilities see use. Especially during the summer, which involves encounters with the True Fae with distressing regularity.
Gee, I wonder why that happens. [/Winter Court]
Though of course, there's no guarantee that a time shifted grenade would prove decisive against a Fae any more than it would a Mage. Unless you filled it with cold iron shrapnel... Hmm...

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Though of course, there's no guarantee that a time shifted grenade would prove decisive against a Fae any more than it would a Mage. Unless you filled it with cold iron shrapnel... Hmm...

The grenade isn't being time-shifted, the user is. A sort of, "Get as close as possible, pull the pin, drop the grenade, then time-shift out of harm's way," gambit.

[One Tin Soldier]

The grenade isn't being time-shifted, the user is. A sort of, "Get as close as possible, pull the pin, drop the grenade, then time-shift out of harm's way," gambit.

Well, it's not the "time-shifting" part that would prove problematic against a Fae, it's the "grenade" part. Though now I really want to test cold iron grenades.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Meh, a frag grenade to the face (or the back pocket) will still hurt, even if it is a True Fae. Significantly less than if it were something that is not a True Fae, but still.

[Hyena]

Hello again, everyone.
I am creating a sorcerer for an OWoD game, but I am puzzled at how he actually works. `
I took two Paths - Alchemy and Hellfire. Let's take a look at the hellfire. So, I roll 9d10 Intelligence + Occult knowledge with the Path 4 (that means that Difficulty is 8) and roll 7, 6, 10, 3, 8, 4, 8, 2, 4. Three successes. I spend one success on a touch attack, two left. The second success is spent on one target. One success left. And the final is spent on the damage - that's 2 lethal damage. The whole casting thing takes four rounds (because I have the fourth Path). And that's assuming I even hit with my Dexterity + Brawl.
Four rounds to deal 2 lethal damage. I can deal more damage by punching someone. What am I doing wrong?

[Eisenfavl]

Changeling are the second most powerful splat, after mage. Their level of illogical idiocy reaches levels around Arcanum 3 towards late game. God knows how screwed you are if their third tier template (i.e. True Fae) are involved.

All this being said, if the grenade was crafted to deal instant death damage by a brownies boon crafter, it's viable. Most groups of pursuers have someone who can see a round into the future though, so it's not very viable unless you use it more than once in a scene.

[Eurus]

Changeling are the second most powerful splat, after mage. Their level of illogical idiocy reaches levels around Arcanum 3 towards late game. God knows how screwed you are if their third tier template (i.e. True Fae) are involved.

Y'know, I keep hearing people say that, and I feel like I'm missing something. I've only read the core Changeling book, do things get weirder in the splats?

[Mono Vertigo]

Yeah. There's Talecrafting (I think it is in Swords at Dawn) that allows you to play, basically, with the narrative of your own story. It's very meta, but also very powerful if you're genre savvy.
There's also the whole pledgecrafting thing that allows you to get many advantages at a negligible cost if negotiated properly.
That's the two main things that can make a Changeling ridiculously powerful. Add to that the many passive advantages, how easy it is to get Glamour, and the catches that allow you to save some of that Glamour.
Of course, it requires preparation and creative thinking, but Mages too need those.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

I thought the power tiers went Mage>Sin-Eater>Changeling=Promethean>Vampire>Werewolf>Hunte r>Mortal. I'm not sure where mummies fit in.

But yeah, a changeling's strength is in his pledges and talecrafting ability. You forgot one other thing, though, Musashi. Changelings have the cheapest powers, as well. Meaning that a smart changeling has a bunch of powers and merits on the same XP it would take a vampire to have three disciplines at 3 dots each.

[SiuiS]

In our Changeling game we have to deal with powerful enemies often enough that potent combat abilities see use. Especially during the summer, which involves encounters with the True Fae with distressing regularity.
Gee, I wonder why that happens. [/Winter Court]
Though of course, there's no guarantee that a time shifted grenade would prove decisive against a Fae any more than it would a Mage. Unless you filled it with cold iron shrapnel... Hmm...

Heehee, court rivalry.

That's why I prefaced it with a qualifier. I just... Don't really see the fun of Playig Changeling as a combat game? Fighting the true Fae should be more about precision timing at the equinox during a pagan festival with the mcguffins aligned, and less about 23 dice sword attacks that inflict 8L from auxiliary fire.

Changeling are the second most powerful splat, after mage. Their level of illogical idiocy reaches levels around Arcanum 3 towards late game. God knows how screwed you are if their third tier template (i.e. True Fae) are involved.

Yes, but this is a white wolf game.
In dungeons an dragons, you look at the setting, you look at the numbers, and when the numbers vastly exceed why the setting uses you see a path to conquest.
In changeling, you don't go that way. I think compiling a world based on how the numbers fall in the murder simulator, and trying to win at the murder simulator, is ridiculous. You've sill lost because you've bought into the murder simulator. If I wanna do that I'll play werewolf. (note: I am totally playing werewolf.)

Yeah. There's Talecrafting (I think it is in Swords at Dawn) that allows you to play, basically, with the narrative of your own story. It's very meta, but also very powerful if you're genre savvy.
There's also the whole pledgecrafting thing that allows you to get many advantages at a negligible cost if negotiated properly.
That's the two main things that can make a Changeling ridiculously powerful. Add to that the many passive advantages, how easy it is to get Glamour, and the catches that allow you to save some of that Glamour.
Of course, it requires preparation and creative thinking, but Mages too need those.

Rrrrrr I would very dearly like to get ahold of the tale crafting rules but the book is out outside my price range. Talecrafting fits Charlotte to the letter; she just justified an entire Subarc through narrative inertia and trope use! Gotta scrounge, I suppose, and hope GMC is a kick starter after all.

Oh, and I find Glamour to be the best resource for a game. It's a resource in the acute sense, where you'll always have it but you'll still run low if you spray and pray during an action scene of some variety. It's a beautiful mechanic.

[comicshorse]

Heehee, court rivalry.

That's why I prefaced it with a qualifier. I just... Don't really see the fun of Playig Changeling as a combat game? Fighting the true Fae should be more about precision timing at the equinox during a pagan festival with the mcguffins aligned, and less about 23 dice sword attacks that inflict 8L from auxiliary fire.

Well yes but the True Fae are effectively gods. There are much more mortal foes to worry about particularly if you are in the Hedge. Which incidentally is the only place my character would use the grenade trick, if only because he really doesn't need the FBI investigating.

I suppose it depends what you mean by a combat game. Our game involves combat sure ( the alien dangers of the Hedge, feuding between the Courts, the underworld wars may character is way over his head in) but its a part of the game not the whole point.
I suppose I'd say our games are more 'Usual Suspects' than 'Rambo'


Talecrafting ? Maybe I should check out Swords at Dawn, or if it takes the game to Mage levels of silliness, maybe not

[Turalisj]

I thought the power tiers went Mage>Sin-Eater>Changeling=Promethean>Vampire>Werewolf>Hunte r>Mortal. I'm not sure where mummies fit in.

But yeah, a changeling's strength is in his pledges and talecrafting ability. You forgot one other thing, though, Musashi. Changelings have the cheapest powers, as well. Meaning that a smart changeling has a bunch of powers and merits on the same XP it would take a vampire to have three disciplines at 3 dots each.

Mummy are probably above Sin-Eater until they start into the death spiral of losing Sekhem. Then they quickly go down the tiers until they can get gunned down by a mortal with a shotgun.

[One Tin Soldier]

I think it's also worth noting that Changeling contracts, especially high level ones, tend to be very powerful in specific situations. Take, for example, Contracts of Elements 5, which lets you turn into the element directly. My changeling has the water version of this, and we learned very quickly that it is exteremely hard to hurt water. In fact, you can't do it at all with conventional weapons. Combine that with how easy it is to escape from situations when you are a sentient puddle, and the contract is a very effective get out of trouble free card. The fire version of the same contract makes you a literal incarnation of screwing over vampires and mummies.
Then you have things like Red Rage of Terrible Revenge, which can allow a changeling to outmuscle most anything else you can think of. Hearth contracts are on a similar level to Fate magic. (Though obviously more limited in application)
Not to mention the fact that they can escape any prison where they have access to a door. Really, changeling powers are really darn useful.

[Turalisj]

The fire version of the same contract makes you a literal incarnation of screwing over vampires and mummies.

Unless the Mummy took the ability to be immune to fire.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Mummy are probably above Sin-Eater until they start into the death spiral of losing Sekhem. Then they quickly go down the tiers until they can get gunned down by a mortal with a shotgun.

I thought someone else said that a fresh-from-the-crypt mummy could take out a high-level mage with ease. I could be misremembering, however.

[Turalisj]

Once you get lower than Sekhem 5, all of your higher abilities are locked away.

[Mewtarthio]

Unless the Mummy took the ability to be immune to fire.

You're probably better off that way. Dealing aggravated damage to a mummy only makes it angry. Actually killing a mummy makes it angry forever.

Speaking of which, looks like the book's finally out.

Not to mention the fact that they can escape any prison where they have access to a door. Really, changeling powers are really darn useful.

A door, or any reflective surface, or an arch, or any opening of any sort that they can fit through.

[SiuiS]

Well yes but the True Fae are effectively gods.

They were also the specific example given. I'd have other examples for other things.

I suppose it depends what you mean by a combat game.

That is true, and it is nebulous at best.
In general, I cannot see any WoD game sharing any conceits whatsoever with dungeons and dragons, with the exception of werewolf. These conceits include "combat is a thing your character will do often".

Mummy I know nothing about, so factor that in.

Talecrafting ? Maybe I should check out Swords at Dawn, or if it takes the game to Mage levels of silliness, maybe not

Couldn't tell you yet!

Mummy are probably above Sin-Eater until they start into the death spiral of losing Sekhem. Then they quickly go down the tiers until they can get gunned down by a mortal with a shotgun.

*comment about a mummy fighting an ochemata*
"Straight from the crypt? My money is on the mummy, and I say that with awe and fear."

You're probably better off that way. Dealing aggravated damage to a mummy only makes it angry. Actually killing a mummy makes it angry forever.

Speaking of which, looks like the book's finally out.

Yeah, mummies seem like some pretty ahrdcore stuff.

A door, or any reflective surface, or an arch, or any opening of any sort that they can fit through.

The obvious answer is to kill them and then force their ghost into servitude!
Or, like, sensory dep.



Nooooothing wrong with changelings and a little sensory dep.

[comicshorse]

A door, or any reflective surface, or an arch, or any opening of any sort that they can fit through.

I'm away from my books but I think Changelings in general can only use doors. They need to buy the Contract of Mirrors to use reflective surfaces and I think its a Goblin Contract to use an arch or similair.
But given the Durance its unsurprising so many Changeling Contracts concentrate on not being imprisoned. The right Contract of Elements mean you can turn to the element and seep away, Contract of Artifice enables you to cause locks to stop working and I think Contract of Separation (?) enables you to walk through walls at its highest level

Posted by SiuiS

In general, I cannot see any WoD game sharing any conceits whatsoever with dungeons and dragons, with the exception of werewolf. These conceits include "combat is a thing your character will do often".

You could run a Changeling game entirely in the Hedge which could be like DnD. Why you'd want to is another matter

[ToySoldierCPlus]

I'm away from my books but I think Changelings in general can only use doors. They need to buy the Contract of Mirrors to use reflective surfaces and I think its a Goblin Contract to use an arch or similair.

Nope.

Anyone, changeling or otherwise, can enter or leave the Hedge via an appropriate gateway. Any opening, archway, doorway or even reflective surface is a potential gateway, provided it is large enough for the changeling to pass through. It merely requires a changeling or other fae being to activate it.
Activating a gateway isn’t complicated. A changeling
merely needs to touch part of the gateway and make some
sort of request to be admitted.

Any changeling can use any of the listed things as a gateway. The Contract of Mirrors allows for shapeshifting to varying degrees, depending on the level of the clause invoked. I'm not sure if there are any goblin contracts that mess with how someone might enter the Hedge, but if there are, they probably allow ingress from any point, not just through a gateway.

EDIT: Though this may still make escaping a locked cell difficult, as locked doors don't work for this. A crude archway" made from items in the cell would work, however.