General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

[Lady Serpentine]

That is true, and it is nebulous at best.
In general, I cannot see any WoD game sharing any conceits whatsoever with dungeons and dragons, with the exception of werewolf. These conceits include "combat is a thing your character will do often".

Mm. Depends on what you're doing.

Someone on the White Wolf forums had the idea to start off a mortals game, that would then, after several sessions, turn into a Changeling game, when the fact that everyone was playing Fetches was revealed (how I'd handle that would be have everyone make the Changeling which fits another Fetch, so they could play both; I believe that the original intent, however, was for the Fetches to become NPCs at that point, or, alternately, for the Changelings to do so). Seeing as, at least canonically, the most common response to Fetches is to kill them, that seems like it could easily lead to a relatively combat-heavy game.

There's also the fact that it's an easy-to-use system, at least in the incarnations I've seen, and refluffing is not terribly difficult. It could easily be adapted to playing, say, a group of supernatural mercenaries, despite that generally not being the intent. (It would probably require alterations to the Morality/Clarity/etc. meter, though, to be fair.)

[SiuiS]

I'm away from my books but I think Changelings in general can only use doors. They need to buy the Contract of Mirrors to use reflective surfaces and I think its a Goblin Contract to use an arch or similair.
But given the Durance its unsurprising so many Changeling Contracts concentrate on not being imprisoned. The right Contract of Elements mean you can turn to the element and seep away, Contract of Artifice enables you to cause locks to stop working and I think Contract of Separation (?) enables you to walk through walls at its highest level

I'm actually doing this, now. I read a Goosebumps Choose Your Own Adventure book as a wee'n, which had the protagonist grab the mane of a charging ghost horse, and if you hold on for dear life, it smashes through a wall, taking you with it, and describes an, in my opinino, deeply romantic view of freedom as you ride forevermore on the winds, exulting in the primality of the flight on the back of your companion.

He's a Shadowsoul with contracts of separation, a fae mount of smoke and shadow, and who will go for elemental fog and smoke contracts soonly. It's a really cool idea, I think, and I was stoked to find contracts that are basically "you are like smoke, and can escape" even if that's not how they are fluffed.

You could run a Changeling game entirely in the Hedge which could be like DnD. Why you'd want to is another matter

Aye, that is true. I am actually doing something like that, as a test of how well I could handle kludging a system; I plan to run a D&D campaign using the nWoD systems, gutted. But I came to woD because it offered an elegant system to do what we were trying to do in D&D anyway, so I am now a proponent of trying to find a better system if the current one isn't optimal.

Nope.

Any changeling can use any of the listed things as a gateway. The Contract of Mirrors allows for shapeshifting to varying degrees, depending on the level of the clause invoked. I'm not sure if there are any goblin contracts that mess with how someone might enter the Hedge, but if there are, they probably allow ingress from any point, not just through a gateway.

EDIT: Though this may still make escaping a locked cell difficult, as locked doors don't work for this. A crude archway" made from items in the cell would work, however.

The answer, of course, is to let the rays of the sun through the window form an archway.

Mm. Depends on what you're doing.

Someone on the White Wolf forums had the idea to start off a mortals game, that would then, after several sessions, turn into a Changeling game, when the fact that everyone was playing Fetches was revealed (how I'd handle that would be have everyone make the Changeling which fits another Fetch, so they could play both; I believe that the original intent, however, was for the Fetches to become NPCs at that point, or, alternately, for the Changelings to do so). Seeing as, at least canonically, the most common response to Fetches is to kill them, that seems like it could easily lead to a relatively combat-heavy game.

There's also the fact that it's an easy-to-use system, at least in the incarnations I've seen, and refluffing is not terribly difficult. It could easily be adapted to playing, say, a group of supernatural mercenaries, despite that generally not being the intent. (It would probably require alterations to the Morality/Clarity/etc. meter, though, to be fair.)

Yeah.

Also, you dissapeared! I had a changeling game I was going to point you towards, but it filled up.

[Lady Serpentine]

Also, you dissapeared! I had a changeling game I was going to point you towards, but it filled up.

I'm sorry I missed it... Probably for the best, though. I likely wouldn't have been up to contributing properly.

Also, if you could PM me those Contracts you were talking about for your Shadowsoul, please? They sound like it's quite possible they'd fit that escapee from an asylum I was talking about...

Edit: Aaaand it looks like I found one anyway. Now I just need to figure out which idea to make.

[Fable Wright]

NWoD/Changeling: the Lost question:

What type of action does it take to sing or play an instrument in combat? I was toying around with a concept for a Thusser, and was wondering whether you could Dodge (or do other things) while playing a fiddle...

[SiuiS]

I'm sorry I missed it... Probably for the best, though. I likely wouldn't have been up to contributing properly.

Also, if you could PM me those Contracts you were talking about for your Shadowsoul, please? They sound like it's quite possible they'd fit that escapee from an asylum I was talking about...

Edit: Aaaand it looks like I found one anyway. Now I just need to figure out which idea to make.

Google "contracts of separation". I'm not home, so I can't get you any actual book data right now. Sorry :(

NWoD/Changeling: the Lost question:

What type of action does it take to sing or play an instrument in combat? I was toying around with a concept for a Thusser, and was wondering whether you could Dodge (or do other things) while playing a fiddle...

... Extended? Honestly, not sure. You can do pretty much anything else, in combat. You'll stop playing if hit hard, though. Or at all, really, I would imagine.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

NWoD/Changeling: the Lost question:

What type of action does it take to sing or play an instrument in combat? I was toying around with a concept for a Thusser, and was wondering whether you could Dodge (or do other things) while playing a fiddle...

Uh... I'm not really sure. Probably consumes your turn each round you're playing, denies you your defense while you continue to play, and can be interrupted by incoming attacks.

[comicshorse]

Google "contracts of separation". I'm not home, so I can't get you any actual book data right now. Sorry :(

Winter Masques p40

[Fable Wright]

... Extended? Honestly, not sure. You can do pretty much anything else, in combat. You'll stop playing if hit hard, though. Or at all, really, I would imagine.

Uh... I'm not really sure. Probably consumes your turn each round you're playing, denies you your defense while you continue to play, and can be interrupted by incoming attacks.

What about singing, then? According to the Thusser entry, either works...

[ToySoldierCPlus]

What about singing, then? According to the Thusser entry, either works...

Considering that the point is using music/song to perform magic, I'd say it probably doesn't matter if you're singing or playing a fiddle. Besides, the effect ends when the target is forced to defend themselves from incoming danger, making this a questionably useful combat tactic at best.

[Fable Wright]

Considering that the point is using music/song to perform magic, I'd say it probably doesn't matter if you're singing or playing a fiddle. Besides, the effect ends when the target is forced to defend themselves from incoming danger, making this a questionably useful combat tactic at best.

It depends on what you mean by incoming danger. I read it as getting attacked in combat; if that were the case, it would mean that a powerful enemy out of a group could be locked down while other combatants were mopped up, which can be fairly potent battlefield control. Given that it's incoming, not imminent, danger that breaks the trance, this interpretation seems reasonable. In such situations, the other combatants would probably realize that the fiddle is the source of their boss's problem, in which case being able to use the Wizened's Blessing and doubling/tripling an already rather high Defence would be rather invaluable.

[SiuiS]

Winter Masques p40

I mean I couldn't get to the data in the books, because I was (and am) at work :P

The information is out there, but I don't want to link it because I am hazy on if it breaks fair use and is thus a board infraction.

It depends on what you mean by incoming danger. I read it as getting attacked in combat; if that were the case, it would mean that a powerful enemy out of a group could be locked down while other combatants were mopped up, which can be fairly potent battlefield control. Given that it's incoming, not imminent, danger that breaks the trance, this interpretation seems reasonable. In such situations, the other combatants would probably realize that the fiddle is the source of their boss's problem, in which case being able to use the Wizened's Blessing and doubling/tripling an already rather high Defence would be rather invaluable.

That sounds workable. Note that I said if you can run/shoot/draw a picture/breakdance/juggle/punch/use magic and stiller defense, you should be able to also play a fiddle and get defense.

Just that once someone does hit you, the music will stop, barring magic to make you flinch proof.

I'd be careful with that Body of Water contract though. All it takes is a single empty cup thrust through your torso, and as soon as the contract expires you've not got a heart.


Question for the room at large; in all the play test discussion and al the sneak peeks and previews, have we actually learned anything about aspirations yet? For the new ruleset I mean?

[Fable Wright]

IThat sounds workable. Note that I said if you can run/shoot/draw a picture/breakdance/juggle/punch/use magic and stiller defense, you should be able to also play a fiddle and get defense.

Just that once someone does hit you, the music will stop, barring magic to make you flinch proof.

The question isn't about defense in general, though, but the Dodge action in combat specifically, doubling defense and getting the Wizened Blessing's bonus to keep from getting hit while singing or playing a fiddle/flute/harmonica/smallish handheld instrument.

[Lady Serpentine]

Based on some of the dancing I've seen people do while playing a fiddle, I'd say yes.

However, that sounds like the sort of question you'll need to ask the ST in question...

[Eisenfavl]

I need to post in this thread more.

Power tiers are arranged roughly the same way as D&D tiers: Odd/Even for versatility, number of power level. In NWOD there's roughly 3 sets of these power levels.

Tier -1/0: Functional dieties. Given explicit permission to do whatever the **** they want.
6+ Arcanum Mages

Tier 1: Versatile and Arbitrary/Numberless Effects:
Mages. This is pretty much why they are infamous.
Sufficiently large and vaguely defined Spirits: What can A level 7 'Technology' Spirit do? Virtually anything, with an arbitrary dicepool? That's as far as I can tell.

Tier 2: Limited but Arbitrary/Numberless Effects:
True Fae. Proper use of their token form or whatever the objects are called gives functionally unstoppable murderkings. Plus, yknow, they get amazing stuff from basically being damage resistant changeling +'s.
From what I've heard, starting char mummies. Still can't compete with mages because they are nigh-unkillable murderbeasts, but they can't deal with temporal assaults from multiple dimensions away which are made of anti-matter.

Tier 3: Versatile, Capable of dicepool boosting for amazing madness:
Changelings. Talecrafting really isn't THAT amazing, but having every merit (that isn't supernatural) you want without pre-reqs is nightmarish combat potential, plus they have functionally infinite glamour and a whole bunch of minor bonus's, JUST from pledges. Then you get into the madness which is changeling merits, some of the kiths, and some of the contracts (like omen).
High end Sin-Eaters. Once you get enough XP in your powers, key/manifestation bloat gives you an exponential number of options. Plus, some of their powers are able to basically insta-win vs. most tier 5+'s.

Mortals + strong minor templates (i.e. Mask Slasher). This is reliant on the sanity alternate rule though, so less so a common threat.

Tier 4: Dicepool boosting for a limited number of applications:
High end Werewolves.
Prometheans.
Most Spirits.

Tier 5: Sorta Meh. Decent options, generally have to specialise to do good.
Vampires, significantly, despite being the WOD splat people recognise.

Tier 6: Not really a main setup:
Virtually all minor templates.


The reason this comes up, is that when people see something new for a splat, like as was brought up, Time-Traveling grenade changelings, it lets you scale how useful a tactic might be with your future seeing omen spamming scrodingers pursuers.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

I agree with your decision to categorize the tiers in a similar manner to those used in D&D, but I disagree with your placement of most of them.

Tier 0 (Functional Gods): Archmages, True Fae in Arcadia

Tier 1 (Maximum Versatility and Power for Minimal Investment): Mages, Mummies at game-start. Mages can do an incredible amount with their arcana, and they get to add gnosis to an incredible number of different things. While these are somewhat expensive, mages can get a special kind of XP specifically for raising gnosis, and arcana dots are cheap for their overall versatility. I don't like mages. Mummies start at Sekhem 10, and from what I understand have a bunch of powers to play with, as well.

Tier 2 (Slightly more restricted than Tier 1, still more versatility and power for less cost than lower tiers): Sin-Eaters. It's the Manifestation and key bloat that causes this one, coupled with the sheer amount of plasm they have to throw around. Having 3 dots in a single manifestation, say Marionette, and 2 keys is effectively having 2 different 3-dot manifestations. Buy a new key? Gain a new 3-dot manifestation. Only have the 2 keys, but buy the first dot of a new manifestation? You have effectively bought 2 new manifestations. Bonus points for the keystone suping up their manifestations significantly. Also, the manifestation effects themselves can be extremely bersatile even within a single key. Phantasmal Marionette makes an incredibly powerful flying construct to fight and scout for you. Boneyard lets you find anyone anywhere in its area, even if they hide (you just have to project your senses to the place where they're hiding and look for them that way). Not to mention the attack opportunities.

Tier 3 (Low overall cost, but powers face more restrictions and/or are have less raw power): Changelings, Prometheans. I admit to not knowing enough about Prometheans to really be able to defend this position, but I know they are incredibly difficult to kill (on par with sin-eaters, really), can heal very easily in the modern world, and from what I understand they have some really nice powers. Changelings, on the other hand, I do know. Their contracts are the cheapest of any supernatural power, allowing a changeling to have a great number of contracts for comparatively little cost, overcoming the limit of contracts not being especially versatile. Glamour is cheap and easy to acquire, and contracts can be activated without its use, provided certain conditions are met, some of which are ridiculously easy to meet. Pledgecraft allows for the acquisition of tons of merits for functionally no cost, along with skill bonuses, allowing the changeling to save XP for either supernatural merits or more contracts/Wyrd.

Tier 4 (Decent versatility overall, with a few glaring and crippling weaknesses): Vampires. Vampires are very squishy, being able to be taken out by a stake to the heart, being forced into torpor if their health tracks are filled with lethal damage, and being unable to heal without vitae. Also, there's the whole "falling asleep as soon as the sun rises, regardless of what else is going on" thing. On the bright side, their powers allow them to be good in social situations, and competent at combat, since they have Celerity and the Protean discipline.

Tier 5 (Overspecialization, and able to be outdone in that area by a sufficiently prepared and/or specifically built mortal): Werewolves. Werewolves have no social powers to make up for the penalties they take when interacting with mortals. Almost all of their powers are focused on combat, which they're good at, but unfortunately, a mortal with the Combat Marksmanship fighting style is better. As a bonus, their shapeshifting is less than stellar, as their best form in most cases is Dalu. Dalu form allows for access to human fighting styles, Urshul and Urhan only allow access to that one fighting style in one of the werewolf books that was designed for those forms. Tooth and Claw, I think? Gauru doesn't allow access to any fighting styles, and ends so quickly you're likely to endanger yourself more than your enemies by using it.

Tier 6 (No supernatural powers): Mortals, Tier 2 and lower Hunters. Tier 3 Hunters have endowments, which are nice toys that probably put them on Tier 5. Mortals and Tier 1 and 2 hunters, however, do not have such nice toys.

As for minor templates, they're probably somewhere around Tier 5. Most of them are likely to be too specialized to be any higher, but most of them have supernatural powers, putting them above the rank-and-file mortals.

[Turalisj]

A Mummy can get something like this pretty easily.

Spoiler

Show

REBUKE THE VIZIER
Tier 1: Ka • (Subtle); Tier 2: Ba ••• (Curse); Tier 3:
Ren •••••

Tier 1: The Rite of Return trumps all other magic.
Accordingly, a mummy may unleash this tier as a ward
against supernatural powers. Doing so encases the Arisen
within an invisible shell of exuded Sekhem for one hour,
though Witnesses and supernatural beings can see the
barrier as a shimmering second skin. Whenever any
hostile magic targets the shielded mummy or the space she
occupies, make an opposed roll of the aggressor’s Sekhem
against the higher of the defender’s Sekhem or Ka rating.
If the defender wins, the magic fails to harm or otherwise
affect her. Otherwise, the magic functions normally, though
she can still resist by whatever means the power allows.

Tier 2: This tier may be unleashed reflexively as a
defense against any supernatural power against which
the previous tier can defend. Doing so is automatically
successful, snuffing out the inbound magic without a roll.
However, the defense lapses in the moment it flares into
existence and does not offer any lingering protection.

Tier 3: Unleashing this tier upon a target within (Sekhem
+ Ren) yards reveals all magic that temporarily enchants
it to the mummy’s intuition. Indefinite enchantments
generally count as temporary for this purpose, provided
they could theoretically be terminated in some way.
Having beheld the target’s magic, the Arisen scours one
such effect from it that isn’t natural to its existence. For
example, a mage cannot be stripped of the power to cast
spells, nor can a vampire have its animating curse torn
away. However, the specific spells hanging on a mage can
be sundered, while a vampire’s activated Disciplines may
be turned off (forcing him to reactivate them). Similarly,
a vessel can have active powers suppressed, but it cannot
have its powers taken from it. Victims of curses may have
their suffering abated. The Storyteller remains sole arbiter
of what magic this tier can annul or not.

Also known as "Flip off the Mage".

[ToySoldierCPlus]

A Mummy can get something like this pretty easily.



Also known as "Flip off the Mage".

I love mummies. It is my new favorite splat, and I haven't even read the book yet.

[Selrahc]

If a werewolf wants to kill you, how do the "higher tier" characters respond? They can't unless they can meaningfully combat spirits. I.E, unless they are a Mage (Or possibly an Ulgan).

That's the power of werewolves in intersplat comparisons. It's what they bring to the table in a crossover game.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

If a werewolf wants to kill you, how do the "higher tier" characters respond? They can't unless they can meaningfully combat spirits. I.E, unless they are a Mage (Or possibly an Ulgan).

That's the power of werewolves in intersplat comparisons. It's what they bring to the table in a crossover game.

Vampires have access to native aggravated damage (Protean 3), and Celerity. Changelings can jump into the Hedge, or bind the werewolf in a pledge to not harm the changeling under penalty of death. I'm betting there are some nice contracts to help out, too. I'm given to understand that Prometheans are good in a scrap, and they are really hard to kill. If a werewolf wants a sin-eater dead, he'd better pray that the sin-eater doesn't have access to the Pyre-Flame key and the Boneyard, or else that fight will go down in local memory as, "that night that one dude spontaneously combusted." Even if the sin-eater doesn't have the boneyard, he will still be incredibly difficult to kill, and whatever manifestations he does have will still be useful. Mages are, well, mages, and can out-werewolf a werewolf at either of the things werewolves are supposed to be good at, namely melee combat and spirits (I hate mages). And mummies are impossible to keep dead, incredibly powerful, and just going to come back even more powerful and bearing a personal grudge against the werewolf if it actual manages to kill the mummy.

Oh, and any of them can have combat marksmanship, which means the werewolf probably won't even be able to get close.

[The Glyphstone]

Vampires have access to native aggravated damage (Protean 3), and Celerity. Changelings can jump into the Hedge, or bind the werewolf in a pledge to not harm the changeling under penalty of death. I'm betting there are some nice contracts to help out, too. I'm given to understand that Prometheans are good in a scrap, and they are really hard to kill. If a werewolf wants a sin-eater dead, he'd better pray that the sin-eater doesn't have access to the Pyre-Flame key and the Boneyard, or else that fight will go down in local memory as, "that night that one dude spontaneously combusted." Even if the sin-eater doesn't have the boneyard, he will still be incredibly difficult to kill, and whatever manifestations he does have will still be useful. Mages are, well, mages, and can out-werewolf a werewolf at either of the things werewolves are supposed to be good at, namely melee combat and spirits (I hate mages). And mummies are impossible to keep dead, incredibly powerful, and just going to come back even more powerful and bearing a personal grudge against the werewolf if it actual manages to kill the mummy.

Oh, and any of them can have combat marksmanship, which means the werewolf probably won't even be able to get close.

I don't think you were reading what he said right. A werewolf doesn't need to get up close and nasty (though they are good at it), he sits fifty miles away and sics murder-spirits on you.

Mages can fend this off, because they can also do spirits and better. Most of the other splats are going to have issues (not sure about mummies).

[Selrahc]

I don't think you were reading what he said right. A werewolf doesn't need to get up close and nasty (though they are good at it), he sits fifty miles away and sics murder-spirits on you.

Mages can fend this off, because they can also do spirits and better. Most of the other splats are going to have issues (not sure about mummies).

Yeah. A werewolf is basically a spirit mage that has to do a lot more legwork.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

I don't think you were reading what he said right. A werewolf doesn't need to get up close and nasty (though they are good at it), he sits fifty miles away and sics murder-spirits on you.

Mages can fend this off, because they can also do spirits and better. Most of the other splats are going to have issues (not sure about mummies).

Okay, fair point. The sin-eater can reverse-possess his geist, allowing him to get up close and personal with the murder spirit in Twilight. You're right, however, that the others will have issues barring specific preparation for fighting spirits.

[TheCountAlucard]

Why is it that people keep saying the whole "stake through the heart" thing is a weakness?

If you manage to drive a stake through a Mage's heart, he won't be in torpor; he'll be dead.*




*Unless, of course, the Mage has used Space and Life magic to relocate his heart to a less vulnerable location, like his safety deposit box.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Why is it that people keep saying the whole "stake through the heart" thing is a weakness?

If you manage to drive a stake through a Mage's heart, he won't be in torpor; he'll be dead.*




*Unless, of course, the Mage has used Space and Life magic to relocate his heart to a less vulnerable location, like his safety deposit box.

A fair point. So, that's a shared weakness across the board, then. I think it's just because the only splat to explicitly have rules for stake-to-heart attacks in Vampire.

[Water_Bear]

Why is it that people keep saying the whole "stake through the heart" thing is a weakness?

Because you don't actually need to deal all that much damage to stake a vamp, and with the right abilities you can negate a lot of those fiddly targeting penalties anyway. Staking anyone else would be a waste of time; you'd blow a ton of dice just to hit the right spot and probably not even kill the guy.

[SiuiS]

Vampires have access to native aggravated damage (Protean 3), and Celerity. Changelings can jump into the Hedge, or bind the werewolf in a pledge to not harm the changeling under penalty of death. I'm betting there are some nice contracts to help out, too. I'm given to understand that Prometheans are good in a scrap, and they are really hard to kill. If a werewolf wants a sin-eater dead, he'd better pray that the sin-eater doesn't have access to the Pyre-Flame key and the Boneyard, or else that fight will go down in local memory as, "that night that one dude spontaneously combusted." Even if the sin-eater doesn't have the boneyard, he will still be incredibly difficult to kill, and whatever manifestations he does have will still be useful. Mages are, well, mages, and can out-werewolf a werewolf at either of the things werewolves are supposed to be good at, namely melee combat and spirits (I hate mages). And mummies are impossible to keep dead, incredibly powerful, and just going to come back even more powerful and bearing a personal grudge against the werewolf if it actual manages to kill the mummy.

Oh, and any of them can have combat marksmanship, which means the werewolf probably won't even be able to get close.

Okay, discounting that "GGRRRAAAAAARGH!" wouldn't come anywhere close to being a valid assent to a pledge, and thus the changeling is boned....

A good alpha strike trumps just about anything. If a werewolf is attacking you, why are you assuming you have time for ... anything? You have 3 seconds until it is the werewolf's turn again. On his turn, he will probably do what he did last turn. Hit you.

plus, yeah, murder spirit harem. I'm wokring on one of those* oin a mage game.




*Not really. but close!

Why is it that people keep saying the whole "stake through the heart" thing is a weakness?

If you manage to drive a stake through a Mage's heart, he won't be in torpor; he'll be dead.*




*Unless, of course, the Mage has used Space and Life magic to relocate his heart to a less vulnerable location, like his safety deposit box.

One of the NPCs in a mage game I am watching has no skull. the back of his head is a dried, caked bloody mass. His brain was removed via shotgun, and he's still alive.

Alpha strike, stake to the heart? Yeah, that'll kill anything. But for a mage, or a mummy, you'll want a more potent alpha strike.

Because you don't actually need to deal all that much damage to stake a vamp, and with the right abilities you can negate a lot of those fiddly targeting penalties anyway. Staking anyone else would be a waste of time; you'd blow a ton of dice just to hit the right spot and probably not even kill the guy.

I dunno, man. "You have no heart, and while going into shock your cardivascular system shuts down, take 3 lethal damage" would be met with a table flip. You have no heart. If you don't have a prior contingency, and you do have a metabolism, you're dead. It turns someone with regeneration, armor, defense and magical powers into "killed by a single success".

Maybe a werewolf could get the stake to dislodge in time. Maybe.

[Eisenfavl]

I did make a mistake: starting char mages are only tier 2. They can kill anything lower than them, and could still kill a mummy if the mummy wasn't prepared.

A Mummy can get something like this pretty easily.

Spoiler

Show

REBUKE THE VIZIER
Tier 1: Ka • (Subtle); Tier 2: Ba ••• (Curse); Tier 3:
Ren •••••

Tier 1: The Rite of Return trumps all other magic.
Accordingly, a mummy may unleash this tier as a ward
against supernatural powers. Doing so encases the Arisen
within an invisible shell of exuded Sekhem for one hour,
though Witnesses and supernatural beings can see the
barrier as a shimmering second skin. Whenever any
hostile magic targets the shielded mummy or the space she
occupies, make an opposed roll of the aggressor’s Sekhem
against the higher of the defender’s Sekhem or Ka rating.
If the defender wins, the magic fails to harm or otherwise
affect her. Otherwise, the magic functions normally, though
she can still resist by whatever means the power allows.

Tier 2: This tier may be unleashed reflexively as a
defense against any supernatural power against which
the previous tier can defend. Doing so is automatically
successful, snuffing out the inbound magic without a roll.
However, the defense lapses in the moment it flares into
existence and does not offer any lingering protection.

Tier 3: Unleashing this tier upon a target within (Sekhem
+ Ren) yards reveals all magic that temporarily enchants
it to the mummy’s intuition. Indefinite enchantments
generally count as temporary for this purpose, provided
they could theoretically be terminated in some way.
Having beheld the target’s magic, the Arisen scours one
such effect from it that isn’t natural to its existence. For
example, a mage cannot be stripped of the power to cast
spells, nor can a vampire have its animating curse torn
away. However, the specific spells hanging on a mage can
be sundered, while a vampire’s activated Disciplines may
be turned off (forcing him to reactivate them). Similarly,
a vessel can have active powers suppressed, but it cannot
have its powers taken from it. Victims of curses may have
their suffering abated. The Storyteller remains sole arbiter
of what magic this tier can annul or not.

Also known as "Flip off the Mage".

Tier 1 of this power is meaningless because the mage is attacking from a location no other supernatural splat could hope to get to: another galaxy, another timestream, a ban-bubble of anti sekhem and whatever else, the underworld, the spirit world, or even a supernal realm. This means that the mage will just try again and again.
Tier 2 is only usable once per round, isn't it? This means that any mages who sets up multiple spells to go at once will just get through this, so it is once again useless.
Tier 3 is similarly useless because of the location in Tier 1.

If a werewolf wants to kill you, how do the "higher tier" characters respond? They can't unless they can meaningfully combat spirits. I.E, unless they are a Mage (Or possibly an Ulgan).

That's the power of werewolves in intersplat comparisons. It's what they bring to the table in a crossover game.

So I said these splats:

Tier 2: Limited but Arbitrary/Numberless Effects:
True Fae. Proper use of their token form or whatever the objects are called gives functionally unstoppable murderkings. Plus, yknow, they get amazing stuff from basically being damage resistant changeling +'s.
Can just instant-kill you from anywhere via ranged weapon token. Also see: changeling
From what I've heard, starting char mummies. Still can't compete with mages because they are nigh-unkillable murderbeasts, but they can't deal with temporal assaults from multiple dimensions away which are made of anti-matter.
I can't vouch for this because I haven't read the book, but they can probably just survive the assault for long enough to do something.

Tier 3: Versatile, Capable of dicepool boosting for amazing madness:
Changelings. Talecrafting really isn't THAT amazing, but having every merit (that isn't supernatural) you want without pre-reqs is nightmarish combat potential, plus they have functionally infinite glamour and a whole bunch of minor bonus's, JUST from pledges. Then you get into the madness which is changeling merits, some of the kiths, and some of the contracts (like omen).
Changelings can see the future of where you will be and what you will do, tell fate that you won't succeed, travel near-instantly through other dimensions to you, and kick your ass in combat. You can't do anything to the changelings, because they KNOW what you will do.
High end Sin-Eaters. Once you get enough XP in your powers, key/manifestation bloat gives you an exponential number of options. Plus, some of their powers are able to basically insta-win vs. most tier 5+'s.
Sin-Eaters can fight spirits, and respond to your legion of spirits with twice as many ghosts, as they have to jump through far less hoops. (And can just murder people to get cannon fodder ghosts)

And starting Char mages just blow up the world. The more I think about it, the more this is a starting matter-mage's answer to any given issue.



@Toysoldier:
I disagree, obviously. Justify what a true fae can do to an archmage? What can a mummy do to a level 5 Arcanum mage? How is a sin-eater or Promethean going to touch a changeling?

[Water_Bear]

I dunno, man. "You have no heart, and while going into shock your cardivascular system shuts down, take 3 lethal damage" would be met with a table flip. You have no heart. If you don't have a prior contingency, and you do have a metabolism, you're dead. It turns someone with regeneration, armor, defense and magical powers into "killed by a single success".

Maybe a werewolf could get the stake to dislodge in time. Maybe.

I actually like that staking isn't necessarily instant death to a mortal though, because it's actually more realistic.

Being stabbed in the heart is bad, obviously, but it's hardly instant death and there are a lot of people walking around today who have suffered exactly that kind of injury. Especially if something, a stake for instance, is holding the wound shut and preventing you from bleeding out. As long as you don't screw with the thing and try to pull it out, I would say converting the Lethal damage to Aggravated damage (as per that one variant targeting rule) and using the ordinary wound penalties is a fine representation of that kind of trauma for tabletop purposes.

Besides, Vampires aren't killed by a Staking anyway. They're put into Torpor, but that's actually the best outcome they could hope for when losing a fight; there's no urgent need for their enemies to kill them, only people with a detailed understanding of Vampire lore will even think to keep attacking them, and people who do understand will also know how much more valuable a vampire captive is than a pile of dust. Compared to fire which almost immediately de-protagonizes and then quickly immolates them thereafter, that's actually a much less severe weakness.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Okay, discounting that "GGRRRAAAAAARGH!" wouldn't come anywhere close to being a valid assent to a pledge, and thus the changeling is boned....

"Guywhoswearsnottokillmeonpainofdeathsays'GGRRRAAA AAARGH!'?" Seriously, though, fine, the changeling can still fight back. This isn't OWoD anymore. Werewolves are not nearly as good at combat as you seem to think. It doesn't take much to beat them. The changeling could use Contract of Elements 5 to become something insubstantial, like smoke or flame. Good luck injuring that with your claws.

A good alpha strike trumps just about anything. If a werewolf is attacking you, why are you assuming you have time for ... anything? You have 3 seconds until it is the werewolf's turn again. On his turn, he will probably do what he did last turn. Hit you.

Activate a couple of different contracts that allow me to escape, pacify him, make me better in combat, or countless other options? There's a contract that will let me jump him forward in time to a time when I'm not there anymore.

One of the NPCs in a mage game I am watching has no skull. the back of his head is a dried, caked bloody mass. His brain was removed via shotgun, and he's still alive.

Alpha strike, stake to the heart? Yeah, that'll kill anything. But for a mage, or a mummy, you'll want a more potent alpha strike.

Theoretically, anyway. RAW, no, it won't. Heck, even IRL, people have survived having their hearts impaled. Yes, it requires immediate medical attention, but it has happened.

I dunno, man. "You have no heart, and while going into shock your cardivascular system shuts down, take 3 lethal damage" would be met with a table flip. You have no heart. If you don't have a prior contingency, and you do have a metabolism, you're dead. It turns someone with regeneration, armor, defense and magical powers into "killed by a single success".

Maybe a werewolf could get the stake to dislodge in time. Maybe.

You know, here's something. I'll just drive a stake through the werewolf's heart. BAM, beaten by a changeling. Focusing on this, again, people have survived being stabbed through the heart.

I did make a mistake: starting char mages are only tier 2. They can kill anything lower than them, and could still kill a mummy if the mummy wasn't prepared.

Yeah, but killing just gives them a power boost and makes 'em mad. They're like saiyans that way.

Tier 1 of this power is meaningless because the mage is attacking from a location no other supernatural splat could hope to get to: another galaxy, another timestream, a ban-bubble of anti sekhem and whatever else, the underworld, the spirit world, or even a supernal realm. This means that the mage will just try again and again.
Tier 2 is only usable once per round, isn't it? This means that any mages who sets up multiple spells to go at once will just get through this, so it is once again useless.
Tier 3 is similarly useless because of the location in Tier 1.

I don't see how Tier 1 is useless, it's basically spell armor and it doesn't say anything about only defending against magic activated on the same plane; only magic targeting the mummy.
For Tier 2, I think he means "in response to," rather than "as a reflexive action." That said, it admittedly doesn't specify how many times per round it can be used. Still, I'd argue that it can be used repeatedly, but I need to actually get my hands on a copy of Mummy and learn the rules before I can start trying to arbitrate this stuff.
As for Tier 3, fine, so it can't target a mage that's hiding off in another realm from the mummy, but the first tier should still provide protection, and Tier 2 should still be usable to counter specific incoming spells.

@Toysoldier:
I disagree, obviously. Justify what a true fae can do to an archmage? What can a mummy do to a level 5 Arcanum mage? How is a sin-eater or Promethean going to touch a changeling?

True Fae v. Archmage: That depends. Is the True Fae in its realm? Because there, it is literally God. Is the True Fae anywhere else? Because in that case, the archmage will win, sure. But again, I equated the two as being functional gods.
Sin-eater v. Changeling: Pyre-Flame Boneyard before the Changeling knows he's upset someone? If the changeling wants to run, then yeah, sure, he can run into the Hedge and the sin-eater can't follow. But in a straight up confrontation, the sin-eater will win.
Prommy v. Changeling: Again, I equated the two, I did not say the prometheans were superior.

One thing that I believe is causing the disconnect between our interpretations of power: I'm measuring versatility at equal amounts of XP expenditure. You appear to simply be trying to figure out who can most easily kill whom.

[Eisenfavl]

Yeah, but killing just gives them a power boost and makes 'em mad. They're like saiyans that way.
Mummies still need humans to reform. Humans who all died when the universe turned into a reciprocal explosion.


I don't see how Tier 1 is useless, it's basically spell armor and it doesn't say anything about only defending against magic activated on the same plane; only magic targeting the mummy.
As I said: "This means that the mage will just try again and again."
For Tier 2, I think he means "in response to," rather than "as a reflexive action." That said, it admittedly doesn't specify how many times per round it can be used. Still, I'd argue that it can be used repeatedly, but I need to actually get my hands on a copy of Mummy and learn the rules before I can start trying to arbitrate this stuff.
I'm basing once per turn the fact that someone said their starting mummy could counter a spell once per turn. I need to read the books.
As for Tier 3, fine, so it can't target a mage that's hiding off in another realm from the mummy, but the first tier should still provide protection, and Tier 2 should still be usable to counter specific incoming spells.


True Fae v. Archmage: That depends. Is the True Fae in its realm? Because there, it is literally God. Is the True Fae anywhere else? Because in that case, the archmage will win, sure. But again, I equated the two as being functional gods.
But a True Fae in it's realm has complete control over the realm, which is meaningless when the Archmage says that the realm and the true fae don't exist anymore. Which is meaningless when the archmage has more control over the realm than the Fae. Which is meaningless when the archmage can probably give/take away true-faedom.
Sin-eater v. Changeling: Pyre-Flame Boneyard before the Changeling knows he's upset someone? If the changeling wants to run, then yeah, sure, he can run into the Hedge and the sin-eater can't follow. But in a straight up confrontation, the sin-eater will win.
Completely wrong. Have you looked at high op changelings? Omen means the changeling cannot be surprised. It will show itself any event which is significantly dangerous, can easily get to the sin-eater via the hedge portals, and can massacre sin eaters in an open fight.
Prommy v. Changeling: Again, I equated the two, I did not say the prometheans were superior.
Yes, but that implies the promethean has a CHANCE against a changeling. Given that the changeling has the ability to massively outstat a promethean with 10X as much XP, and the contracts are much more powerful than alchemies, and prometheans have NO SOCIAL CONTACT AT ALL, the changeling wins.

One thing that I believe is causing the disconnect between our interpretations of power: I'm measuring versatility at equal amounts of XP expenditure. You appear to simply be trying to figure out who can most easily kill whom.
Versatility is included in my model, but it's a binary consideration, similar to D&D. In D&D, sorcerers are tier 2 because they can function at a tier 3 level AND have a SMALL NUMBER of instantly gamebreaking powers available. Similarly, sin-eaters have a limited number of tactics they can employ which destroy vampires and below without a chance, but a single changeling can beat higher level vampires at everything.

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